Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (Post-release)

[glunark]

So, someone cocks a gun near Lois in africa, and Superman shows up a second later, yet twenty men kidnap his mother at gunpoint and he hears nothing?

I guess he only has ears for Lois.

 

[KrangPrime]

He doesn't trust humanity either. If we lived in a rosy world full of good people, what would be the point in Superheroes?
/QUOTE]

I could use the opposite argument. if the super heroes are distrusting, moody, and destructive, what's the point of having them around?
they may as well be anti heroes....


WB is so afraid of FUN that they forget what makes these characters tick.

the biggest, most out of place laugh in the whole movie is when batman says 'Oh ****'. Imagine a whole movie with smiles and fun and the two greatest heroes the worlds ever seen.
Instead, we got alot of destruction, sour faces, angry faces, glowing destructive eyes, and people who HATE being heroes, yet for some reason do it anyway.


Personally, I blame Smallville and Superman REturns for this. Mopey Teenage Horney clark Kent VRS Stalkerish mopey Superman.

The Bright Colors and fun atmosphere was gone since then. and just because it's bright and fun doesn't mean it's simple or kidified either. just look at superman the animated series series finale.

 

[Snikt]

Whilst I also appreciate that you have a different view - considering a lot of what you just mentioned...did you read the article? It addresses a lot of your concerns succinctly.

Also don't tell me "You're thinking.."

I didn't claim this Superman is like the "comics" (because only one interpretation exists doesnt it...) I said he is on the way to embodying some of those core characteristics we know and love. And has shown many of those qualities already. Nothing like the comics though...Have you read Superman: Earth One? Secret Identity? Even in Kingdom Come he retreats from society after losing Lois and being disgusted with the justice system etc. So I think there are many elements in this Superman that are derived from the comics.

The wording in some of your arguments is quite frustrating. He says "Nobody stays good in this world" as he flies off to try to convince a man who wants to kill him to help him, while another man whom he has never personally wronged has his mother bound and gagged, and had just pushed the love of his life off the top of a building, and had caused the deaths of hundreds (?) of innocent people in the senate explosion, specifically to hurt Superman. His faith is strained! He is being tested...he wants to believe in people but its ridiculously difficult, humanity is full of awful people doing awful things. Thats part of the whole thread of this film. Batman is also utterly despondent about the good in people. He doesn't trust humanity either. If we lived in a rosy world full of good people, what would be the point in Superheroes?

Conveniently forgetting the part where Martha says "Be their hero Clark, be their angel, be their monument. Be anything they need you to be. Or be none of it."? She is at once encouraging him to make the choice he is comfortable with and letting him know that she supports him in any circumstance.

"He wouldn't have wrecked Metropolis or killed Zod..." I'm joining @teragon here because if people cannot see the story being told to them then I've no chance in explaining it.

http://www.manofsteelanswers.com/ :thumbsup

Honestly I tried reading the article and I couldnt get through it. Its like someone hired him to write that stuff.

Haha ok man. No need to get defensive.

In Kingdom Come he retreats from society because society didnt listen to him when Magog nuked Kansas/Midwest. Its funny that you mention Kingdom Come, considering the subject matter. Sure, there are elements of Superman from the comics in this film, the daily planet, perry white, metropolis, lois etc, but the core of the character isnt there. At all. Have you read All Star Superman? Do you see any of those characteristics of this version of Superman?

Its like youre blind to the reasoning behind all this stuff, from a film maker and story telling point of view. Yeah, he says that because Snyder doesnt get that about the character. What kind of baseless thing is that for Superman to say anyway? Thats the point about Superman, you know the never ending battle he is talking about? It pertains to everything that you just said. Keep on fighting and believing in people no matter what. The comic superman fights for truth, justice, and the american way. This movie version of Superman has no freaking morals, and I for one, dont want to watch a superman movie where he is confused about what he should do with his powers. And they already did that in MoS! Make Superman be Superman! The senate explosion, like I mentioned before, was ridiculous. Like Glunark said, someone cocks a gun against Lois, and he is there in 2 shakes, he cant scan the room with his Xray vision, cant hear the bomb or its components and going off and stop it? And the kidnapping of his mother either? Not to mention the logistics of the movie that you are ignoring, how did Lex even know who Superman even was? As the audience, we have no way of knowing how he deduced that! Its sloppy filmmaking.

Batman is a broken hero and is supposed be despondent because he has a reason to be, thats the core of his character. Thats not Superman! Like NeilT said, it can go the opposite way, like those people that were scared in the beginning of BvS. If the "heroes" are just as bad as the villains, whats the point, if anything they would escalate things. They were so ******* scared, they didnt want the police to let them out of a cage in fear of Batman.

I didnt "conveiently forget" that part. I mentioned the part that had the most weight. Yeah, thats great. And then later on we see pictures of her that look ripped out of a Saw movie. Thats another point of this thread, how bad the writing was.

If people want to tell that story of Superman killing people in the DC Murderverse(thats a thing btw) then thats a story I dont care to see. Batman is one thing, and Superman is another thing. Killing Zod at the end of MoS was such an example of hack writing, and bad storytelling, I dont know how else to slice it. If you take away what make the character that way, are they even still the same character? If this movie changed supermans origin of Krypton to pluto, and he landed in madagascar, would that still be superman?

 

[dbuck]

When people use the argument of "if you see it more than once....."
There is no way I'm paying money to see this again. The future R rated longer version of the murderverse isn't happening for me, either. The bad writing and character fails aren't going to be magically fixed on a repeat viewing. I knew better after seeing MOS but had hopes this was a good movie anyway. I tried to believe the fanboys who drooled over it and tuned out the negative reviews, but this movie is a big fail. I just sat in theater cringing, hoping the entire time that it'll get better any minute now. I now owe the wife some lousy rom-com or costume drama that I wouldn't have to had this flick had anything close to the entertainment value of a Disney Marvel franchise film.
Why WB gave Snyder this movie after MOS is beyond me. He didn't 'fix' what was wrong with MOS, he doubled down, leaving WB scrambling to save their DC franchise once it was let loose on the public.
This movie obviously has no box office legs, under 900 million (maybe not even 850) is a huge disappointment for this movie considering its world wide opening.
People attempting to explain why those who did not like it SHOULD like it isn't going to suddenly cause a mass paradigm shift of appreciation. (thanks for fixing the movie for me, obviously it is a misunderstood masterpiece)
Even if that were true (no way) people are now really going to be suspicious of the future DC films. My enthusiasm has been mostly doused. WB knows this and hopes to have Suicide Squad get some of that enthusiasm and 'fun' back.
I don't normally go into a movie thread and hate on it just for fun, and I'm not going to respond over and over in multiple threads about a disappointing movie. This movie is an extreme disappointment to me, the only bright spots were the tiny little bits of Batman and Alfred, and Wonder Woman.

 

[KrangPrime]

People attempting to explain why those who did not like it SHOULD like it isn't going to suddenly cause a mass paradigm shift of appreciation. (thanks for fixing the movie for me, obviously it is a misunderstood masterpiece)
Even if that were true (no way) people are now really going to be suspicious of the future DC films. My enthusiasm has been mostly doused. WB knows this and hopes to have Suicide Squad get some of that enthusiasm and 'fun' back.
I don't normally go into a movie thread and hate on it just for fun, and I'm not going to respond over and over in multiple threads about a disappointing movie. This movie is an extreme disappointment to me, the only bright spots were the tiny little bits of Batman and Alfred, and Wonder Woman.

there are two camps of people these days. either folks who go in hating it, like myself. hoping to be pleasantly surprised but more often then not, no such luck.
Then there are the types that will go in loving it, and love the characters so much even a bad movie won't deter their fun.

for me, my hopes are dashed.
Suicide squad holds no interest for me. never did. the designs are SOOO off the wall, it's like that anime inspired batman series before Brave and the Bold, with the whacked out looking Joker. so different it might as well be something else. I never bothered with that series. Yet, I loved stuff like batman beyond and brave and the bold. something about it had the magic the other stuff didn't for me.
Bruce timms animated series was also a thing of gold, once they where allowed to stop copying the burton universe.

At this point, i'm skipping justice league. seeing the big three on the screen together produced no chills for me. batman that was bad and boring. Superman that was annoying, and not superman...and a wonder woman that doesn't look the part and can't act. I can't see those three carrying a movie like justice league and making it interesting.
Even Aflred I thought just kind of slept through his performance. no michael cain.

 

[KrangPrime]

Honestly I tried reading the article and I couldnt get through it. Its like someone hired him to write that stuff.

Haha ok man. No need to get defensive.

In Kingdom Come he retreats from society because society didnt listen to him when Magog nuked Kansas/Midwest. Its funny that you mention Kingdom Come, considering the subject matter. Sure, there are elements of Superman from the comics in this film, the daily planet, perry white, metropolis, lois etc, but the core of the character isnt there. At all. Have you read All Star Superman? Do you see any of those characteristics of this version of Superman?

I looked up reviews on kingdom, and even though I haven't read it, one user said it's exactly the problem we've been saying with the murderverse. when DC tries to act all grown up and serious, their plots get non sensical and forget the fun. the description this one guy had of kingdom made it sound just as bad and un sensible as BvS....

 

[Snikt]

I looked up reviews on kingdom, and even though I haven't read it, one user said it's exactly the problem we've been saying with the murderverse. when DC tries to act all grown up and serious, their plots get non sensical and forget the fun. the description this one guy had of kingdom made it sound just as bad and un sensible as BvS....

No no no. Kingdom Come is AMAZING. You have to read it. That is a story that encompasses Supermans character too. Its definitely understands the character, but goes through a tough time with him, and man. Its one of the few times where I got chills reading a comic. Thats definitely an awesome read. Alex Ross's art is gorgeous too, and they totally get Batman. I wish I could let you borrow it haha. The Superman in Kingdom Come makes total sense, and everything is explained. This BvS garbage though man, I cant think of another movie that completely missed the mark with characters as established as Batman and Superman. :facepalm

 

[Mektar]

Its been a while now since ive seen it and as this movie was so important for me i thought about it daily actually. Just thinking back on the whole thing and what my thoughts were on it. Overall it got me hopeful for future projects while also being slightly dissapointed. There was enough there to make me excited on how they will move on but there was also alot that i had my doubts on and even dint like.

First scene with the MoS destruction but from bruce his pov was great.
The knightmare scene was good and showed us what were getting for JL i guess with darkseid.
Scenes with Alfred i enjoyed and showed me the alfred i wanted even if his presence in the movie was limited.
Overall the casting has been good.
The scenes with batman were all good minus the killing. Ben is the new batman

Just some stuff that i can recall that i liked about the movie altho i wanna see it a 2nd time just to get into more detail.

Dint like Lex at all. My wife who is not into comics but knows some stuff through animated even said that he was more like the Joker so thats saying alot.
Too much politic and religious bs. While i get the goverment involvement this movie should have been more about supermans journey to becoming the greatest hero.
The overall killing. While i welcome a universe that showcases more violence and consequences. You dont take a character like batman and basicly break 2 of his most famous rules in his first appearance.
Doomsday dint look exactly how i wanted but i dint want him in there to begin with. That was my biggest dissapointment and that was the use of the death of superman story at the end of the movie which had zero impact on me.

There might be things missing as its been a while now hence i wanna see it again in the near future. But overall still enjoyed it but wished that they would have gotten of to a better start cus right now i dont see how they will move on.

 

[dascoyne]

The saddest thing is that DC/Warner believe this film is "too smart" for the general public. Having Lex quote Nabokov and making literary allusions does not make a film smart. When it has no relevance to an otherwise thematically incoherent story it's simply pretentious - and dumb. Really dumb.

 

[Snikt]

I also find it sad, I fell prey to this too, but when some of the films highlights of acting are scenes with Alfred. A butler. And its not like he was fixing bruce up a la hush or anything, just their regular yammerings. Pretty lame if you think about how many other characters are in this movie.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

I looked up reviews on kingdom, and even though I haven't read it, one user said it's exactly the problem we've been saying with the murderverse. when DC tries to act all grown up and serious, their plots get non sensical and forget the fun. the description this one guy had of kingdom made it sound just as bad and un sensible as BvS....

Um... Did you look up Kingdom Come, or just The Kingdom. The latter came several years after the former, is ostensibly a sequel, but is disjointed and, in my opinion, utterly F.U.'s the ending of the original. Kingdom Come is magnificent, the plot is pretty clear-cut, the characters get you invested, and there are some awesome moments and quotes. Plus many nods, homages, and easter eggs. The whole point of it was sticking a thumb in the eye of how grimdark comics had gotten in the '90s, ironically. Superman had retreated to his Fortress, in which he'd recreated his childhood farm (complete with Comet the Super-Horse, Krypto the Super-Dog, Beppo the Super-Monkey, and Streaky the Super-Cat in cameos); Green Lantern has built an energy construct satellite called New Oa and retired to it along with whoever else wanted to come with; Wonder Woman went back to her island, her diplomatic mission to humanity deemed a failure; Flash had merged almost totally with the Speed Force and was keeping his city crime-free by being almost everywhere at once; Batman was getting old and effectively maintaining order in Gotham through drone-enforeced martial law... and Booster Gold has opened a chain of superhero-themed restaurants called Planet Krypton.

But the reasons everything gets borked in the first place, and the reasons why the Golden Age heroes come out of retirement, are all to do with "the public wanted grittier heroes, ones who were willing to kill, and damn the collateral damage -- we aren't that, so we quit" and then the grittier heroes the world inherited were getting out of hand and the old-timers came out of retirement to try to fix things. All touched off by a vision that the end of the world in Revelation was actually the resulting superhero apocalypse. There are moments in the story where, no matter how many times I've read it, I still chuckle and, more to the point, moments where I still get chills and still tear up.

Worst part is, it seems like Zack very hamfistedly took some inspiration from there, as well -- wanting heroes who are willing to kill, the government nuking Superman as collateral damage to try to contain the problem, etc. *sigh*

But seriously, grab the graphic novel (hardcover, if you can find it) and give it a read. Also Alex Ross' other collaboration -- with Marvel -- called Marvels. I like to think I've gotten a sense of your sensibilities and likes, and I think you'll like these a lot...

--Jonah

 

[KrangPrime]

I didn't know there where two.... maybe I checked out the wrong one..

Maybe it's on kindle...i'll search amazon...

I really want to read Booster Golds early adventures, but those arn't on kindle or in print it seems

 

[Snikt]

Um... Did you look up Kingdom Come, or just The Kingdom. The latter came several years after the former, is ostensibly a sequel, but is disjointed and, in my opinion, utterly F.U.'s the ending of the original. Kingdom Come is magnificent, the plot is pretty clear-cut, the characters get you invested, and there are some awesome moments and quotes. Plus many nods, homages, and easter eggs. The whole point of it was sticking a thumb in the eye of how grimdark comics had gotten in the '90s, ironically. Superman had retreated to his Fortress, in which he'd recreated his childhood farm (complete with Comet the Super-Horse, Krypto the Super-Dog, Beppo the Super-Monkey, and Streaky the Super-Cat in cameos); Green Lantern has built an energy construct satellite called New Oa and retired to it along with whoever else wanted to come with; Wonder Woman went back to her island, her diplomatic mission to humanity deemed a failure; Flash had merged almost totally with the Speed Force and was keeping his city crime-free by being almost everywhere at once; Batman was getting old and effectively maintaining order in Gotham through drone-enforeced martial law... and Booster Gold has opened a chain of superhero-themed restaurants called Planet Krypton.

But the reasons everything gets borked in the first place, and the reasons why the Golden Age heroes come out of retirement, are all to do with "the public wanted grittier heroes, ones who were willing to kill, and damn the collateral damage -- we aren't that, so we quit" and then the grittier heroes the world inherited were getting out of hand and the old-timers came out of retirement to try to fix things. All touched off by a vision that the end of the world in Revelation was actually the resulting superhero apocalypse. There are moments in the story where, no matter how many times I've read it, I still chuckle and, more to the point, moments where I still get chills and still tear up.

Worst part is, it seems like Zack very hamfistedly took some inspiration from there, as well -- wanting heroes who are willing to kill, the government nuking Superman as collateral damage to try to contain the problem, etc. *sigh*

But seriously, grab the graphic novel (hardcover, if you can find it) and give it a read. Also Alex Ross' other collaboration -- with Marvel -- called Marvels. I like to think I've gotten a sense of your sensibilities and likes, and I think you'll like these a lot...

--Jonah

Well said Jonah. NeilT, do what he says. Mark Waid and Alex Ross did team up for Marvels, and its awesome. Wasnt as good for me as Kingdom Come, but still an awesome read, with gorgeous visuals. Great review too. Man. I wish I had them at work with me to read them now!

 

[Fawbish]

Whilst we are off hating things for a short while May I also suggest Superman: Peace on Earth? I read that very recently, and I just thought it was beautiful, in art and in story.

 

[Snikt]

Whilst we are off hating things for a short while May I also suggest Superman: Peace on Earth? I read that very recently, and I just thought it was beautiful, in art and in story.

Haha! Ill have to check that out. And of course, in the same vein, All Star Superman is a must read. I just wish the art wasnt done by Frank Quietly. I cant stand his art...

 

[teragon]

I said I was gonna take a break, but I've been catching up with House of Cards on Netflix, and good lord that's what Luthor should have been. Down to a T. Seeing Spacey do the things he does in that show, it's a shame he was so misused when he actually was Luthor !

 

[glunark]

WRONG!!!

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

In addition to Kingdom Come, Peace On Earth, and Marvels, I'd also recommend the whole Earth X/Universe X/Paradise X cycle. Yeah, that's Marvel and not DC, but it is done with such respect for and knowledge of the entire Marvel Universe, it practically makes me weep.

--Jonah

 

[justanuthercap]

Okay, stay with me here for just a minute... let's say that the first 3 or 4 of this new DC verse are all dark, dreary and the same tone as BVS. Now, right in the middle of the 4th or 5th movie... the REAL Justice League shows up, the real versions of all the heroes as we know and love them to kick dark DCs backsides. Yes, all this time we were actually witnessing the formation of the Crime Syndicate! The only REAL hero in BVS was the vision of the Flash warning the wrong Bruce Wane.

Zack says "How's THAT for the long game Marvel? BOOM!" drops the mic and walks off stage.

I know, I know, but my son and I were talking and this was the only way we could come up with that would explain both the direction that they have chosen and maybe even show up Marvel just a bit. Sorry, but this is what happens when we fanboys try to answer the question WHY? with no alcohol involved. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[dascoyne]

Okay, stay with me here for just a minute... let's say that the first 3 or 4 of this new DC verse are all dark, dreary and the same tone as BVS. Now, right in the middle of the 4th or 5th movie... the REAL Justice League shows up, the real versions of all the heroes as we know and love them to kick dark DCs backsides. Yes, all this time we were actually witnessing the formation of the Crime Syndicate! The only REAL hero in BVS was the vision of the Flash warning the wrong Bruce Wane.

Zack says "How's THAT for the long game Marvel? BOOM!" drops the mic and walks off stage.

So it's a plot twist.








That's still a poor substitute for solid characters and good stories.

(Marvel keeps the mic and actually entertains the audience for the rest of the evening.)