Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (Post-release)

But that was the least of that movies issues. The airplane scene however was glorious. But badmouthing Superman Returns is a whole other can of worms :lol

The airplane scene was the only good part of the movie.

The Super Kid with Allergies. The Miscast lois lane (again, but for the first time). The Continuation of smallville themes where clark kent/superman is NOT happy being superman, or a hero. Stalking lois lane and then getting depressed about leaving. he then goes on a criminal busting rampage, not because he wants to do good, but because he wants to blow off steam.

I liked Spacey as Lex Luthor though. We also got cameo's of the original lois and jimmy olsen in the movie.

It had more moments than BvS did, that's for sure.

Although Routh made a better clark kent than superman.
 
It was never explicit that Clark was not already nearby in Africa. I believe they have said something along the lines of Smallville from Metropolis is about the range of his hearing, but if there are tons of noise around in a city, he gets overwhelmed (a scene that we will see in the Ultimate cut, where he tries to hear Martha but hears a whole host of horrible things happening in the city, looking forward to that). I choose to believe that he was hanging out nearby due to knowing that Lois was on a dangerous case. No doubt instead of seeing a caring partner, people will complain that that would be stalkerish.

Should he scan every room he walks into? Should he scan the city constantly, invading peoples privacy just in case? And even if he scans the room - would you be able to see the difference in a bomb versus the internal wiring and battery of a wheelchair? Has Clark been shown to know the ins and outs of electronic wiring? It isn't a cartoon...

The whole point of Superman is that he continues to trust and believe in humanity despite how awful we are in some respects. That is why he has to leave and reflect on it all. He has been Superman for 18 months or so, saving people actively and establishing himself as a reporter who wants to write the real articles that matter. He is revered, but he has not given a public statement or interview as far as we know - they refer to the Capitol arrival of Superman as "historical". That indicates that a lot of humanity are in his corner, a lot of them do see him as a good guy, ergo, trust. It might be naive, but Superman has always come across that way - he is literally referred to as a boyscout in most mediums! There is hope, he is leading by example. Jor-El says that Kal will give the people of earth an ideal to strive towards. That isn't an easy interpretation. The best Clark knows how is to show them that if you /can/ help someone in need, you /should/. That is what he does. The "whining" you refer to is Clark, whose mother's life is literally on the line, and getting out of this situation requires that he convince the one vigilante who has made it clear that he hates him, whom he knows is cruel and tramples on civil liberties. How would you feel in that situation? He say's to Lois, with such a pained expression, that "no one stays good in this world" - we are almost at the bottom of Supermans resolve here. No matter where he turns, there is death, or bad things happening. But he doesn't stop, he doesn't give up. With his dying breath he pleads that Batman save his mother.

Even with your explanation, the gay thing has no relevance. If that is how Singer related to the character, that's fine - Clark/Superman is an outsider. He is an alien among humans with no peers. Not one single person on the planet has had similar life experience with which to bond over. It is a totally believable and relevant trait, and makes him relatable. Which ironically is what a lot of detractors complain about "Superman isn't relatable." We not have possibly one of the most relatable Supermen on our big screens, and people complain that he has genuine emotions. It's mental.

Im going to address each of these points by making a paragraph to the respective ones you said. Exactly. It was never specified, so the audience doesnt know. Thats where slopply filmmaking comes into point. You only know what the director shows you. He could have been down the street, he could have been at the bottom of the ocean, we will never know. You choose to believe that, I choose to believe that it was a stupid scene and was a missed opportunity. If he was that close, why didnt he stop everyone from getting murdered? Oh thats right, cause it would have messed up the "plot".

Is every room he walks into the damn senate? Where there are literally dozens of VIP's? Has he not learned anything about how people are awful, not even people from his adopted planet, but from his own? We arent talking about the city, we are talking about the scene from the senate hearing. Im not freaking Superman! And yes, I think if I did have X-ray vision, I would be able to see the amount of some sort of foreign substance in a wheel chair that would level an entire building. I know it isnt a cartoon, the cartoons are 10 times better than this movie.

I think youre missing the point of Superman. I think believing in humanity is one thing, but trusting it is another. Look at Lex Luthor, he is a regular human, and is one of Supermans oldest, and most dangerous villains. He has been Superman for a year and a half. I suppose he is revered by some, but yeah, its historical because Superman is in fact an alien. I think thats what they were alluding to. That an alien is going to have a senate hearing based on his existence. Yeah, a boyscout in the sense that he always follows the rules, and doesnt deviate from them. He does what is right. Yes. Its a whine. Especially in his delivery, that he is defeated. What does that even mean? "Nobody stays good in this world". Is he referring to humans? Kryptonians? Himself? Thats what Im saying, we are at the bottom of his resolve after only seeing him on screen for however long? Its Superman we are talking about here! "No matter where he turns, there is death, or bad things happening". Thats Zack Snyders fault. That isnt how its supposed to be. Every scene where he is doing good, it is grim, dour, and extremely depressing. You know the pleading for Bats to save his mom is a plot device so that Batman doesnt kill him right? Thats the only reason why that angle was used. Why else do you think it wasnt even explained that Lex found out who Clark and Bruce even are? Because if they did, they wouldnt be able to set up the "what? You have a mom and her name is martha too!?! We should totally be friends now!" thing and have them fight together. And I kind of forgot, what exactly did Batman do that Superman couldnt have done with his powers? Im seriously asking because I kind of forgot what happened at the end. I had to go to the bathroom. Arkham Knight happened, and Bats says he is a "friend of your son" because it was a cool line, despite the fact he was going to kill him literally 3 minutes sooner.

Singer himself said that. I was paraphrasing, but thats what he said. And yeah, nobody can really relate to Superman because of his powers, but none of them are bad. He isnt a vampire that has a bunch of weaknesses, he isnt a horribly disfigured, sewer dwelling mutant that would be repulsed by society. But people can in every other aspect considering he looks like a regular guy. Hell, I take it back, he is a ruggedly handsome, tall, intelligent guy with americas heartland of values. Even if superman had zero powers, he would be well off in todays society. No peers? Aside from his powers, he looks just like everyone else. To say that he didnt have any friends is ridiculous. Look at the Donner movies. He has a bunch of friends. If you want to tell a story of a depressed, watered down version of Batman because youre a hollywood executive that says "Batman makes money, make Superman like Batman" then I dont want to see it. I dont want a relatable Superman. I want to know that when Superman arrives, I know that Im gonna be saved. I want the good guy that has a costume of bright colors, no mask, and the abilities to change the world. The ideal that one person can make a difference, is what Superman should personify. But until he does...Make Mine Marvel.
 
Well, personally I would have him do a quick scan of the room with his X-ray vision, disarm the bomb and be like "do you guys trust me now?" and had him save the day. Cause you know...Superman. Thats what I mean about the sloppiness of the film makers, they can have him hear a gun cock to lois's head, but he doesnt suspect anything about a senate hearing? See, I didnt see all those emotions you said that he conveyed in that scene. The look on his face was like he spilled a jug of kool-aid on his carpet. Like "awww man". And why would he trust humanity? Does anyone trust humanity? If he learned anything from when he was a kid to an adult, and the 18 months between Zod and the events of BvS, is NOT to trust humanity. Thats the thing though, he isnt supposed to trust humanity, he is supposed to be their guiding light. Even Jor-el says something along those lines in MoS, is that he is the beacon of hope, and he stands resolute in his beliefs to do good. Fight the never ending battle...Not whine about how people dont stay good or whatever, I forgot what the line was. Like Dan said, he didnt embody the character of Superman. Seriously, Zach Snyder just doesnt get the character. Bryan Singer sort of did, but the story was lame (kid) and he put all the gay undertones on it because Singer is gay. Aside from a few comics, there hasnt been a good interpretation of Superman since the Donner movies.

He should definitely be less trusting considering how he's being put on trial for the actions of someone else and how MoS ended (trashing a UAV trying to spy on him). I think he's still just very naïve and that's always been the connection between him and Batman. Batman keeps him grounded with his cynicism and complete lack of trust with anyone. Superman believes that there's good in everyone until he has absolutely no choice but to believe otherwise.

I think he walks a fine line in any universe. If he guides humanity too much, he becomes a tyrant. Like in Justice League (S2EP11/12) A Better World. Superman became so hyper-vigilant that he practically paralyzed humanity, not allowing them go in any direction that was perceived as aggressive. If he doesn't guide them enough people ask "why weren't you there? Why didn't you save them?" He can do the heavy lifting by keeping the overall population of the planet from destroying themselves, but it's up to humanity to pick themselves up and realize the savagery of their actions and actually change.

The scene at the Senate hearing where he's standing in the flame, in my opinion, was that he was just hollowed out by the brutality of one person. When his existence is being questioned and people saying how he could wipe out everyone... yet regular people are so filled with hate, anger, greed, and jealousy that they commit the acts they're so afraid he will. I imagine his thoughts being something to the effect of "How do I save these people from themselves when they do things like this?"

I feel like Batman's part in this movie was a little harder to swallow. I get that the Affleck Batman is supposed to have lived through so much misery and pain in Gotham and that he's seeing the futility of his efforts and has become jaded. But it also felt like the subtle hints of what the Joker did aren't enough to give weight to his "If there's a 1% chance we need to kill Superman" point of view, only to be quickly swayed back on course when his mother's name is spoken.

I had 3 major issues with this movie and I think they're probably all a mix of Snyder and the studio.
(1) Lex - SO over the top and eccentric in most of his dialogue. I caught a few moments where he talked like a normal person and it was a relief and tolerable, but then he swings back into the contrived, forced over-acting (which is what I'm expecting from Joke in Suicide Squad as well). I thik if Eisenberg was more Zuckerberg and less Willy Wonka he'd have done fine.
(2) Doomsday - A CGI mess that barely resembled any previous version. I would [barely] even be willing to forgive the "origin" if it just didn't look so horrible.
(3) Snyder - He clearly has no understanding of the characters, no grasp of realistic dialogue, and no concept of good story telling. He's a kid given nuclear bomb to play with. No idea how to use it, what it is or how it works. So we end up with needless explosions and chaos.

While everything done is this movie seems to hinge on or be connected to a previous scene... those reasons, when broken down, make no sense.
Example: Asking senator Holly Hunter for an import license of the kryptonite. The whole Batmobile, chase, first BvS encounter hung on getting the kryptonite that was being brought in (as far as I can tell, illegally anyway). The whole "Grandmas mason jar of **** peach tea moment before the Senate blows up... also hung on the same scene. Yet, he has a team of mercenaries coming and going, killing, and stealing without any apparent issues. He puts a "silver bullet" label on the Kryptonite, asks for permission from a woman who is clearly on the fence about her position with Superman, to bring it into the country. Why say anything? Lex Luthor couldn't come up with a craft way to bring in a big green rock that was enough under the radar that Bruce Wayne wouldn't be able to track it? Sloppy writing for the sake of propping up other sloppily written scenes.

I'm relieved and excited Snyder won't be as hands on with Wonder Woman. I think that movie could still save this franchise.
 
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He should definitely be less trusting considering how he's being put on trial for the actions of someone else and how MoS ended (trashing a UAV trying to spy on him). I think he's still just very naïve and that's always been the connection between him and Batman. Batman keeps him grounded with his cynicism and complete lack of trust with anyone. Superman believes that there's good in everyone until he has absolutely no choice but to believe otherwise.

I think he walks a fine line in any universe. If he guides humanity too much, he becomes a tyrant. Like in Justice League (S2EP11/12) A Better World. Superman became so hyper-vigilant that he practically paralyzed humanity, not allowing them go in any direction that was perceived as aggressive. If he doesn't guide them enough people ask "why weren't you there? Why didn't you save them?" He can do the heavy lifting by keeping the overall population of the planet from destroying themselves, but it's up to humanity to pick themselves up and realize the savagery of their actions and actually change.

The scene at the Senate hearing where he's standing in the flame, in my opinion, was that he was just hollowed out by the brutality of one person. When his existence is being questioned and people saying how he could wipe out everyone... yet regular people are so filled with hate, anger, greed, and jealousy that they commit the acts they're so afraid he will. I imagine his thoughts being something to the effect of "How do I save these people from themselves when they do things like this?"

I feel like Batman's part in this movie was a little harder to swallow. I get that the Affleck Batman is supposed to have lived through so much misery and pain in Gotham and that he's seeing the futility of his efforts and has become jaded. But it also felt like the subtle hints of what the Joker did aren't enough to give weight to his "If there's a 1% chance we need to kill Superman" point of view, only to be quickly swayed back on course when his mother's name is spoken.

I had 3 major issues with this movie and I think they're probably all a mix of Snyder and the studio.
(1) Lex - SO over the top and eccentric in most of his dialogue. I caught a few moments where he talked like a normal person and it was a relief and tolerable, but then he swings back into the contrived, forced over-acting (which is what I'm expecting from Joke in Suicide Squad as well). I thik if Eisenberg was more Zuckerberg and less Willy Wonka he'd have done fine.
(2) Doomsday - A CGI mess that barely resembled any previous version. I would [barely] even be willing to forgive the "origin" if it just didn't look so horrible.
(3) Snyder - He clearly has no understanding of the characters, no grasp of realistic dialogue, and no concept of good story telling. He's a kid given nuclear bomb to play with. No idea how to use it, what it is or how it works. So we end up with needless explosions and chaos.

While everything done is this movie seems to hinge on or be connected to a previous scene... those reasons, when broken down, make no sense.
Example: Asking senator Holly Hunter for an import license of the kryptonite. The whole Batmobile, chase, first BvS encounter hung on getting the kryptonite that was being brought in (as far as I can tell, illegally anyway). The whole "Grandmas mason jar of **** peach tea moment before the Senate blows up... also hung on the same scene. Yet, he has a team of mercenaries coming and going, killing, and stealing without any apparent issues. He puts a "silver bullet" label on the Kryptonite, asks for permission from a woman who is clearly on the fence about her position with Superman, to bring it into the country. Why say anything? Lex Luthor couldn't come up with a craft way to bring in a big green rock that was enough under the radar that Bruce Wayne wouldn't be able to track it? Sloppy writing for the sake of propping up other sloppily written scenes.

I'm relieved and excited Snyder won't be as hands on with Wonder Woman. I think that movie could still save this franchise.

Specifically to offer a reason for your example - it's fairly clear in this film that Luthor's motivation is not the death of Superman (that would be another goal yes, but not the initial one), it is the smearing of Superman's public image. He quite literally needs to show people that Superman, whilst being all powerful, cannot be all good. He can't let this "God" go unchallenged, he has to show them that Superman isn't worthy of admiration.

Luthor sets up the Superman intervention in an international affair in Nairomi, after which the death toll and government reaction in Africa warrants a hearing in the US, where the Committee on Superman is tasked with starting a dialogue with the Man of Steel, to determine what happened. Superman isn't on trial here, he isn't there to be put in jail. I don't believe anyone there thinks that Superman murdered people - they are there to question his unilateral actions - should he have acted at all?

With Luthor's main goal being to discredit and destroy Superman's reputation, he wants the government to be on board with it. He wants the government to get involved with the silver bullet - we have Nukes for other countries - why don't we have something that can stop Superman? The Senator quite rightly sees this as an assassination tool. But Luthor still gets something out of it - he gets the body of Zod and access to the Kryptonian ship. Luthor doesn't only operate only in the dark - he is hands on, operating in the day as a mogul, pulling strings and in the dark, importing his kryptonite illegally once it is blocked from legal import. He doesn't lose anything from having it blocked legally - he gains things.

From Superman's perspective, he is sent anonymous pictures and messages (by Lex) regarding the Batmans branding, what that entailed, portraying Bats as the executioner. Gotham people living in fear, the police working alongside a torturer. etc. He didn't know about Kryptonite, or how or why Batman was chasing people - and really, he doesn't need to know. We aren't even shown that he sees any of this, only that he has tracked the Bat and stops him in his tracks. Offers him a mercy, probably because he does realise that he is fighting for good people but in the wrong way, and warns him to stop.

Throughout the film we see Lex's plans have plans, and he has back up plans all the way through. The unexpected changes start occurring when he presumably (to be answered in a future movie) is either corrupted by Darkseid/Steppenwolf or is simply pushed to his sane limits when he learns of what is actually out there, coming for us.

And whatever we say about Lex - his first plan failed - Superman didn't sully his hands and kill Batman, and Batman did not kill Superman. His secondary plan worked. He orchestrated Superman's death. He has paved the way for Darkseid to come along and take the planet (assumptions) "God is dead."
 
The unexpected changes start occurring when he presumably (to be answered in a future movie) is either corrupted by Darkseid/Steppenwolf or is simply pushed to his sane limits when he learns of what is actually out there, coming for us.

This is also implied by his dialogue with Batman at the end... Did I miss a scene somewhere in the middle of the movie to back this up more?
 
You didn't miss it, it wasn't in the theatrical cut, but WB released it a little while ago. Basically Luthor sitting in the primordial soup in Zod's ship, waiting for the swat guys to pick him up, and either talking live to Darkseid/Steppenwolf, or watching one of these Jor-El's history of Krypton lessons holograms from MOS of Darkseif/Steppenwolf. Either it had motherboxes floating around.

edit : there you go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-MUzvASr8s

Might explain his mental breakdown from the very end, but not his overall weirdness prior to it. Honestly I'm fine with Zuckerberg Luthor, but I don't like how confused and unhinged he sounds in public. He should be cocky, confident, irritating but not bubbling and incapable of keeping a train of thoughts. He had moments just like this, that were great, so I don't know why they went the other way in scenes like his speech at the library by example.
 
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You didn't miss it, it wasn't in the theatrical cut, but WB released it a little while ago. Basically Luthor sitting in the primordial soup in Zod's ship, waiting for the swat guys to pick him up, and either talking live to Darkseid/Steppenwolf, or watching one of these Jor-El's history of Krypton lessons holograms from MOS of Darkseif/Steppenwolf. Either it had motherboxes floating around.

edit : there you go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-MUzvASr8s

Might explain his mental breakdown from the very end, but not his overall weirdness prior to it. Honestly I'm fine with Zuckerberg Luthor, but I don't like how confused and unhinged he sounds in public. He should be cocky, confident, irritating but not bubbling and incapable of keeping a train of thoughts. He had moments just like this, that were great, so I don't know why they went the other way in scenes like his speech at the library by example.

I totally think with some slightly additional time when he is first talking to the kyrptonian ship, or when he is making Doomsday, they could have alluded to something similar to what the additional clip was. That was a miss-step I think - you can interpret that once he has the knowledge of 100,000 worlds, he starts to crack a little as he carries out the remainder of his plan. But that should have been more explicit I think.

I'm not claiming it was perfect - I just think Luthors arc was so much more than people give it credit for. And I found the portrayal to be enthralling.

I think one of my favourite scenes is Luthor vs Superman on the roof. His motivations are revealed, depth of his backstory is revealed, his conviction is clear, he is a true villain - this shrill, slightly unhinged unassuming human has literally brought God to his knees and has dominion over him - using intellect, and knowledge, and has no qualms whatsoever about being hands on with all of it. For those qualities alone, I would expect Darkseid to find a use for Lex in JL, though I don't think Luthor is set to return yet.


Edit: The library scene I quite liked - I interpreted it as this genius level intellect, but is prone to faults. His mouth couldn't keep up with his brain in a public setting. I think what he said in that scene was really important to his character. He speaks about prometheus saving humanity and being rewarded with death, which he thinks is ridiculous. He talks about the bittersweet pain is having knowledge with no power - which he absolutely does not believe is a possibility. He knows knowledge is power, that is how his entire persona functions. He amasses power using knowledge. And him stuttering a bit at this point was his emotions breaking through his facade. That's how I saw it anyway - it did stick out a bit, and that was obviously on purpose (they have the reaction shot of the crowd to him stuttering) so I think it was important to know that this character isn't binary, he isnt "perfect in public and devlish in secret". Gives him more depth I think.
 
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I haven't seen this yet, but what about that thick bat neck? Why aren't the Nolanites complaining about that? When Dark Knight (great movie, horrible bat suit) came out, that was all you heard--"can't turn head with thick neck!" Now it is back to thick neck and no one seems to speak of it anymore.

Or is this movie so bad there are just too many other issues to address?
 
I haven't seen this yet, but what about that thick bat neck? Why aren't the Nolanites complaining about that? When Dark Knight (great movie, horrible bat suit) came out, that was all you heard--"can't turn head with thick neck!" Now it is back to thick neck and no one seems to speak of it anymore.

Or is this movie so bad there are just too many other issues to address?

The neck is thick on the suit, but not rigid like in the past. He has a pretty wide range of motion.
 
The HISHE is here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTuyfQ5CR4Q
Pretty funny as usual ! But the "what does a Lex say" now weirdly makes me want to see full a live action of that :p

A few weeks ago I would have turned this off with a huff - I'm over my initial defensive period now, so I properly laughed at this last night. Very similar to the Badman style of writing.

Favourite bit was when he pops up again suddenly outside of the window and his voice is muffled as he shouts at Superman. hahaha. Great stuff.

Literally couldn't help myself subconsciously debunking each scenario though. I think I'm in too deep. Ding ding ding ding...ding ding ding ding ding...
 
A few weeks ago I would have turned this off with a huff - I'm over my initial defensive period now, so I properly laughed at this last night. Very similar to the Badman style of writing.

Favourite bit was when he pops up again suddenly outside of the window and his voice is muffled as he shouts at Superman. hahaha. Great stuff.

Literally couldn't help myself subconsciously debunking each scenario though. I think I'm in too deep. Ding ding ding ding...ding ding ding ding ding...

Mine was when he said "theres a bomb in this guys chair! Save the dayyyy". Thought that was great. And Fawbish man! I still dont get how you can like this movie so much! You seem like an intelligent guy too, I dont get it! ;)
 
I loved BvS and I still got a great laugh out of it. Lex trying to stick the Jolly Rancher in the dude's mouth was hysterical! "Cherry" :lol
 
Yeah... Anything that comes of the mouth of Faraci is to be taken with an mountain sized grain of salt...

Devin's a huge d-bag, but he does seem to have pretty good insider contacts. Most of his 'I've been hearing...' comments tend to be on the mark.
 

Ultimate Edition Trailer


Looks like the Africa scene is way expanded, some more investigation by Clark, few more scenes in the planet etc.

Cannot wait!!
 
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If nothing else it might at least make those scenes in Africa a lot more coherent, and maybe give us a bit more insight into both Clark's motivations and Bruce's. And if it can fix the pacing and editing issues, that would be nice as well.
Looks like we also get a glimpse of the Bat raiding Luthor's lab for the kryptonite. That should be glorious if it's anything like the warehouse scene.
 
If nothing else it might at least make those scenes in Africa a lot more coherent, and maybe give us a bit more insight into both Clark's motivations and Bruce's. And if it can fix the pacing and editing issues, that would be nice as well.
Looks like we also get a glimpse of the Bat raiding Luthor's lab for the kryptonite. That should be glorious if it's anything like the warehouse scene.

Indeed chief. I hope it just enlightens and deepens what was already there.

If you fancy it, I've found a guy on youtube that is doing scene by scene analysis, in the theme that the film is a classic five act revenge tragedy - they're only short little audio clips on each scene, but I've found it interesting listening. He's called Samuel Otten. Along the same lines as Man of Steel Answers but not as densely packed.



Brace for the inevitable "nothing can fix this piece of ******" comments. :sleep
 
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