Batman Returns

[MattMunson]

I watched Batman Returns last night. I never really did like that movie when it first came out, nor was I a fan of the 89 movie.

Let me be more specific. I LOVED what the movies did for the superhero movie genre. At the time, it was pretty much dead, and Hollywood didn't see much money in the genre. And rightfully so. Superman IV helped put a nail in that coffin, and there were a number of aborted or ultra lame movie or TV superhero attempts that were better off never made.

But even when they first came out, I remember thinking how unimpressed I was with Tim Burton's story telling abilities within the genre. Yes, yes, I know he recieved endless kudos for his amazing "vision" of Gotham city. The irony there of course is that it didn't really jibe with the existing Batman mythos or ethos. But the movie going public watched it.

And now it's twenty years later, and I look at it with fresh eyes.

What I notice most of all is how completely visually driven Burton is. Things happen on screen that make no sense at all within the story or reality. Nothing like that would ever happen in real life, and even within the world of the comic book universe, it still doesn't make sense. Batman sort of roams the streets acting more like robocop than the Batman of the comic books. (and i'm not just talking about current comics. Even in the 80's, post Dark Knight, he was much more of a shadow skulker than a street parader) Gnawing cats bring a woman back to life after a thirty story free fall, grant her karate skills, and convert her from a cowering mousey woman into an vibrant anti-hero. Umbrellas become helicopters. Bruce Wayne is transformed into a bumbling love-sick idiot by a secretary he has just met. Eye makeup disappears when you tear your cowl off. Etc.

Burton seems so focused on the images and "moments" he sees in his head that he wants to see translated to screen that he ignores the "rules" of the Batman universe and plows ahead anyway.

I think this is also a result of his complete lack of respect (or possibly interest in) the source material. Watching those movies today, I realize with stark clarity what I knew 20 years ago: Burton is no Batman fan. He doesn't even really know the character. If anything, his movies come across as a sophisticated , not-played-for-laughs version of the 60's/West show. Certainly not as a visualization of the current state of affairs in the DC titles.

That said, I still have fond memories of these movies, and I'm still grateful for the impact Burton had on the superhero genre. He essentially re-invented it, reinvigorated it, and we have him to thank for the really powerful and well made movies that we see in theaters today.

And of course, I do love that car.

 

[cayman shen]

This is flat out, hands down my favorite superhero movie, ever. The penguin's "funeral" scene, sinking under the water...spectacular. I know it's not for everyone (I have a goth streak a mile wide which you'd NEVER know to look at me), but for those who get their kicks on some heinous, vaguely expressionistic creepy, Returns is the movie to beat.

And yes, I agree with your criticisms, but the movie has so much damn flair that I'm able to overlook them, where as in a film with less style they'd be more off-putting.

 

[Shade88]

MattMunson: I agree. Even though I can actually watch Batman 89 and like it. (To a certain degree) I have to say that Returns was not my favorite either. It was... just to unbelievably stupid.

 

[Solo4114]

I thought it was pretty good at the time, and I still enjoy it, but that may also be in contrast to the abominations that came AFTER it. Invidious comparison works in two directions, I guess.

 

[Shade88]

I thought it was pretty good at the time, and I still enjoy it, but that may also be in contrast to the abominations that came AFTER it. Invidious comparison works in two directions, I guess.

In my opinion... Batman Forever was funny at some points... but other than that, it was useless.

Batman and Robin was not good/funny at any points, it was just bad.

Returns was to... stupid. It was completely useless.

Batman 89 was good.

And Adam West and Burt Ward was the most useful out of this list. It gave me many moments of laughter to the point of being on the verge of tears. :thumbsup

 

[nickytea]

Burton is not a writer/director. He is a director, and needs to be paired with writing talent to be able to produce great work. Thankfully, from my observations of screenplay to finished product, when he finds one that works, he's extraordinarily faithful to what is on the page.

The two Batman movies he made are probably the only two of his movies I really don't like at all.

 

[Minder Thr33]

Batman Returns is a great superhero movie, just not a Batman movie. The 89 Batman was closer to the Batman we know, but with huge variances (guns and killing are my biggest issue). I think with Returns, Burton was granted his own freedom to create a movie without any restrictions and he did just that.

 

[Eopie Herder]

This is flat out, hands down my favorite superhero movie, ever. The penguin's "funeral" scene, sinking under the water...spectacular. I know it's not for everyone (I have a goth streak a mile wide which you'd NEVER know to look at me), but for those who get their kicks on some heinous, vaguely expressionistic creepy, Returns is the movie to beat.

And yes, I agree with your criticisms, but the movie has so much damn flair that I'm able to overlook them, where as in a film with less style they'd be more off-putting.

I'm with you on that. I can accept the flaws of it, and just enjoy the film. And of the four original films, this is the only one I own on Blu-Ray. Danny Elfman's score was the best he has ever done. I highly recommend the 2 disk version of it.

 

[MattMunson]

Thanks for the good discussion, guys. I appreciate it. I should have said a few more times that I do find the movie entertaining, and obviously, I watch it again and again. I think the thing that just really made it impossible for me to LOVE these movies is the fact that, as someone pointed out, it's just not a Batman movie.

I actually AM a fan of Burton's artistic abilities, and I think he does have some amazing visions dancing around in that head of his. I just feel that Batman was not the right vehicle for those visions. If what was said earlier about him faithfully directing what is on the page, then there is room for blame elsewhere :lol

Despite all that, the interpretation of the Penguin was pretty darn cool. While he would not fit into the NolanVerse, I thought the Penguin was a good real-world/Batman-world interpretation of the character. There was a tad too much comic relief, and as with the rest of the movie he occasionally slipped into the realm of ultra obsurd, but the character design and execution were really fun to watch. Faithful to the books, but much darker.

Which is not the case for Catwoman. Which was neither faithful, nor interesting.

I'm probably going to watch the 89 movie sometime this weekend. Hopefully it has aged a little better.

 

[Wes R]

I'm only a fan of the first movie. This also shows why sometimes companies should only hire directors who are fans or at least respect the material (Michael Bay for one has no interest in transformers and never liked the originals thus his movies are the batman returns of the transformers universe). Personally Batman and Beetlejuice are the only good movies I think Burton ever made and the Animated batman series his movies spawned was far superior to the movies. Nicolson's joker still beats that crapfest one Nolan came up with.

 

[KidL]

I may be biased as a huge Batman fan, but I love both 89 and Returns. Granted, Returns isn't by any means quintessential 'Batman', but I feel it still delivers within the spirit of the character. And while I have mixed regard for Burton's filmography, there's no denying that the man is first-and-foremost an artist, not a director. But that's what I loved most about his Batman films: his artistic take on the character a la Frank Miller, Neil Adams, Alex Ross, etc. I still feel 89/Returns are the most visually stunning and well designed on-screen representations of the Bat. Begins and TDK may have the better storylines and overall tone, but I find many of the designs to be comparatively lackluster. That said, the Returns suit and Batmobile are two of my all-time favorite prop designs sooooo maybe take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Now if the Nolan films had featured the Returns suit and Batmobile... well, a guy can dream, right? Or fanboy as it may be...

 

[clancampbell]

As i recall, Warner Bros. were not at all happy with what Burton did with Batman Returns. It was kind of universally felt that Tim Burton made a Tim Burton film...NOT a Batman film. I agree with this sentiment. I still remember a friends comment when he came out of the theatre after having seen returns.....(he's a HUGE Batman fan)..." That was....outrageous!!!...Good, but outrageous." Personally i felt the whole flick had a kind of a stage play feel to it. As good as Keaton was in the Batman role,(well....that's debateable in itself...) the film wasn't really about Batman. It was more about spectacle and absurdity.

I still don't like it to this day....

Rich

 

[MattMunson]

Interesting. It seems that though the details vary from post to post, we all have the same general feeling about the Burton Batman films. Very cool!!!

 

[cayman shen]

You know, people say things like "it's not a Batman movie," and I know what they mean, but I've brought this up in other threads: Batman has varied WILDLY in his various incarnations over the decades. You want an authentic comic Batman? Really? With the spanking a naughty Robin and everything? Or villians dressed up like playing cards? Or Batman whooping mutants in his Bat-tank? I see Burton's vision as every bit as legitimate as any other author/artist's interpretation in the last seventy years.

Except Schumacher. Friggin hack. :lol

 

[Eopie Herder]

Except Schumacher. Friggin hack. :lol

I love his apology for Batman and Robin on the 2 disc DVD. I give him a tiny bit of respect for that.

 

[E-Wan]

I think that both Burton's films are very much framed by the villains rather than Batman himself, especially Returns, where the Penguin really drives the whole movie.

 

[cayman shen]

I think that's common in comic films. Not all, but many have the "villain as main character" malady. Which may not be bad: Ledger's Joker was a million times what Bale's Batman could ever be.

 

[E-Wan]

I'd agree with that to a certain extent. I think both Batman and Superman suffer a little because their villains are more interesting than they are and that comes across in movies.

Compare Returns to Begins - Returns is a movie about The Penguin with Batman and Catwoman as supporting characters, but Begins is definitely Batman's movie throughout.

 

[cayman shen]

But it's a dull-ass origin story! After that, what's next? The villian's origins are a natural fit. Having said that though, TDK NOT explaining the Joker was a huge plus...

 

[KidL]

It was kind of universally felt that Tim Burton made a Tim Burton film...NOT a Batman film... It was more about spectacle and absurdity.

This is true with all of Burton's films. And while I can certainly understand people not liking his vision of Batman, I think there's something to be said about how much better they are than Schumacher's vision, which is also based on spectacle and absurdity. Burton's storytelling is by no means sophisticated, but I think his interpretation of Batman (at least visually) deserves some credit. Especially considering when they were produced and the way the general public perceived the character during those times.

Burton seems so focused on the images and "moments" he sees in his head that he wants to see translated to screen that he ignores the "rules" of the Batman universe and plows ahead anyway.

I think this is also a result of his complete lack of respect (or possibly interest in) the source material. Watching those movies today, I realize with stark clarity what I knew 20 years ago: Burton is no Batman fan. He doesn't even really know the character. If anything, his movies come across as a sophisticated , not-played-for-laughs version of the 60's/West show. Certainly not as a visualization of the current state of affairs in the DC titles.

That said, I still have fond memories of these movies, and I'm still grateful for the impact Burton had on the superhero genre. He essentially re-invented it, reinvigorated it, and we have him to thank for the really powerful and well made movies that we see in theaters today.

I agree with this to an extent, but would add that even in the comics, the Batman we know today was still being fleshed out through the late 80s and early 90s. I would also keep in mind that Batman TAS (which many consider quintessential Batman, myself included) drew heavy inspiration from the Burton films. The opening score, deco design, muted color palettes... These are all elements pulled directly from 89 and Returns.