Another P1 Mask... Silicone And Animatronics Done.

[tehfailsafe]

Ah, I get it now. I thought you were shimming them in there directly into the sculpture itself ( through the other layers ). So that's why the seam is so clean, it's only the width of the xacto knife without any possible seeping like on a stone mold. Neat!

Would it have been possible to spray the bubbles with release before attaching them? That way you eliminate the possibility of releasing the previous layers?

 

[MasterAnubis]

Ah, I get it now. I thought you were shimming them in there directly into the sculpture itself ( through the other layers ). So that's why the seam is so clean, it's only the width of the xacto knife without any possible seeping like on a stone mold. Neat!

Would it have been possible to spray the bubbles with release before attaching them? That way you eliminate the possibility of releasing the previous layers?

Yes, but then the tape won't stick.


I just used a magazine to mask off the areas as I sprayed, the small sections that ended up not adhering shouldn't be an issue.

 

[thefonzy]

Very informative!!! I never even thought of doing it that way!!! good thing i've been following you, hope you don't mind me taking some notes..

 

[MasterAnubis]

Very informative!!! I never even thought of doing it that way!!! good thing i've been following you, hope you don't mind me taking some notes..

WHAT! Of course I mind. I'm the only one who can do it this way!

Patent pending.

Patent pending.

Patent pending.

I didn't spend all this time taking pictures and describing in ultra-fine detail just to have someone go and get ideas off of me!

Patent pending.

Patent pending.

Patent pending.




I like inspiring, of course you can take some notes. If I had some sort of trade secrets, I'd skip pictures or ignore questions.

 

[Darth Pinhead]

I really like how you painted the whole head and then applied the bubbles. Smart, IMHO, because unlike with metal shims which are pushed into the sculpt, your sculpt remains intact without that line. Your final castings should be virtually seam-free. Very nice.

As for the casting of latex in silicone, yes you can as long as you can ensure that air can get to the deepest areas, as MA stated. I cast my hands in silicone molds. Scott Marshall casts all his latex masks and suits in silicone molds. As MA stated, it can become difficult if areas are too deep and you can't get airflow to a particular section, even with the mold split and using a heater fan or heat-gun. It really depends on the sculpt and the mold created. Gene ran into this problem with his silicone head mold because his mandible jaw is so long and narrow and is forced to remold it. The ends of his mandibles simply do not get enough air flow to cure the latex, so it never cures. I've had issues with the studs in my left hand mold not curing unless very thin layers are painted in and then encouraged to dry via heat gun. Even then, I've encountered some issues. The thing with a two-part mold is you have to do each side independently and then seal the joint with a butter coat prior to closing it. Then, you have to blast it with warm air because otherwise the moisture simply will/can not go anywhere (Silicone is waterproof as opposed to porous material like UltraCal, which is Portland Cement and Plaster of Paris). Make sense? Silicone is awesome for detail, but without thinking ahead when creating your mold, it can get tricky. Though, I tend to over-think things, too, lol...

Sorry for the hijack, MasterAnubis. As you were, Dying to see your first pull!

 

[tehfailsafe]

I see. I didn't realize ultracal was porous, I thought the benefit was the rigid-ness.
I'm still trying to think of how I'd rather mold something, but I haven't even sculpted yet. I tend to put way too much thought ahead of myself sometimes.

Though the method of brushing on a soft mold seems far more favorable to me than an ultracal mold. Plus then I could use WED clay instead of oil since I won't need to build a wed wall. Overall seems like a much more efficient and effective way of molding it. Also using the rubber mold it's a bit easier to get away with minor undercut issues since the mold can be peeled off easier rather than breaking through the stone mold? Do I understand that right?

What is the cost difference in a latex pull vs a silicone pull? Can you do a thin silicone skin backed by something else to save some cost?

 

[Darth Pinhead]

I see. I didn't realize ultracal was porous, I thought the benefit was the rigid-ness.

Well, both molds are eventually rigid in some fashion. The UltraCal mold is by itself, but it breathes (It's porous at a microscopic scale). Silicone jackets are backed by solid mother molds, which can be made of a number of things, but they have to be backed by something or they just flop and lose their form.

I tend to put way too much thought ahead of myself sometimes.

Welcome to my hell...

Also using the rubber mold it's a bit easier to get away with minor undercut issues since the mold can be peeled off easier rather than breaking through the stone mold? Do I understand that right?

As in getting the mold off the sculpt? Yes, the silicone/rubber will be easier to peel off the sculpt. But if your final casting is going to be latex, then undercuts aren't really an issue with an UltraCal mold. You wouldn't break through the stone mold. You would more than likely be digging the clay out of the mold and then after the mold has cured a few days, (As long as the sculpt was WED clay) you would rinse it out with water to get out the rest of the clay.

What is the cost difference in a latex pull vs a silicone pull? Can you do a thin silicone skin backed by something else to save some cost?

Significantly more, not only in the pull but the paints required. Thin silicone is not recomended, even with reinforcement mesh. You can reinforce it with certain mesh fabrics, however, one of the main reasons you use silicone is it's stretch, ability to contour to the wearer and create realistic movement. Backing it will stiffen a lot of these desired results and negate having used it in the first place.

Without taking up too much more of MA's thread, I would recomment using the Advanced Search and read up as much as you can for a bit. I have a feeling more questions are about to arise that have been previously answered. Happy hunting!

 

[troggs]

If I understand your question, no. The bubble strips went on top of the layers without cutting them. The last two layers go on then the mother mold is made. Once the mother mold is ready to remove, then the plastic and the pins got removed. Then I spread the flange apart enough to cut through to the sculpture with an Xacto knife. Then the mold can be removed from the sculpture.

Thanks, now it makes sense, seems a great way to minimise the seams as well

 

[MasterAnubis]

I really like how you painted the whole head and then applied the bubbles. Smart, IMHO, because unlike with metal shims which are pushed into the sculpt, your sculpt remains intact without that line. Your final castings should be virtually seam-free. Very nice.

Thanks, I was going off of some of the Arizona Sculpture's mold and material examples. Obviously, the seams should key together perfectly. What I have realized is that my repaired shell works well but the bolts and how tight they are matter too. Too much force and the mold deforms under the pressure. The lesson is it should be tighten enough to seal and inspected before poring to ensure the seam looks aligned.

Sorry for the hijack, MasterAnubis. As you were, Dying to see your first pull!

I don't think this is a hijack. I think it's reassuring to here that other have similar experiences/ opinions.
But as for the fist pull, I can't justify spending the money for the silicone and paints right now. I'm being laid off and don't yet have any job offers, so this could be a lean Christmas. It may be a while before I can proceed.

For now, I have enough materials to continue with the rest of the mandible and teeth molds. I have plenty of FGR and cast another one up last night. I've never done slip casting like this before and I'd have to say that I'm figuring out that the first amount needs to be thin to avoid catching air pockets. Even though I thinned out the first four pound(dry) of FGR I still managed to catch an air pocket in the cheek. But I think this one is good enough for me to paint up. Or rather, try to paint up. I'll see if one of my kids would want to paint up the other.

I see. I didn't realize ultracal was porous, I thought the benefit was the rigid-ness.
I'm still trying to think of how I'd rather mold something, but I haven't even sculpted yet. I tend to put way too much thought ahead of myself sometimes.

Though the method of brushing on a soft mold seems far more favorable to me than an ultracal mold. Plus then I could use WED clay instead of oil since I won't need to build a wed wall. Overall seems like a much more efficient and effective way of molding it. Also using the rubber mold it's a bit easier to get away with minor undercut issues since the mold can be peeled off easier rather than breaking through the stone mold? Do I understand that right?

What is the cost difference in a latex pull vs a silicone pull? Can you do a thin silicone skin backed by something else to save some cost?

Well, some of the biggest things that need to be taken into account when making an original is the material you want the copies made in and then what the mold material will be. You'll need to have an Idea where the part line will be and how much of an undercut can be done with the materials as well as shrinkage. There are also several choices for every material but there are those who prefer one over the others. One thread will only show what I have done with this.

a generic example would be a latex copy. (without being specific)
-The original could be made of clay.
-The mold could be made of a gypsum product.
-The softer clay gets removed from the mold.
-The liquid latex gets put into the mold.
-The dried/cured latex get removed from the mold.

To over explain it...
-The gypsum product is usually Ultracal 30. I use FGR 95 and have made molds from Plaster of Paris(I don't recommend that)
-The clay could be Wed clay, pottery clay, Oil based clay, mud... almost anything that can be removed from a solid mold if sealed right.
-The latex could be balloon latex, mask latex, mold latex and in this example even silicone. Generally no silicone after it's used for latex.
-Once cured it can be removed from the mold because it's soft and malleable.

For me, I wanted to make a two molds originally. One mold out of silicone and one out of fiberglass. The silicone mold would be for busts. I was planning for FMG, FGR or two part plastics. The fiberglass mold would be for silicone. What I found out was that if I used the PolyGel then I could use it for all the above and It wouldn't demolish my sculpture either(bonus) so that I could retexture it, feminize it or try to make it larger without re-sculpting the whole thing. The silicone I have was too hard and brittle for doing the mold this way so I got the PolyGel. Now, I can touch up the sculpt and make a stone mold if I wanted though I scupted it 1:1 and latex shrinks.

Ultimately, my point is that the molding technique will impact how you sculp. If your parts are more complex then the mold can be harder to make. What I've made here is a two peice mold with a three piece mother mold. If you check out Smooth-on and Polytek's Youtube channels, you'll get their veiw on molds too. They show examples of most of their products.
www.youtube.com/user/PolytekDevelopment
www.youtube.com/user/SmoothOnInc

Keep in mind I'm a hobbyist not a pro. I can't possibly cover every option you'll have making a mold like mine. Even with the pros around here, you get more from carefully planning then carefully doing then you'll ever realize. Mistakes and mishaps happen, even the pros have bad days. As long as you learn from it, it's not a failure. For the first time, I recommend trying something small and do a mold like other do it and just try it out.

 

[MasterAnubis]

This is my second FGR-95 bust. It came out better but I still managed to have an air bubble in the cheek. I tried new techniques with a thinned first coat. This was ten pounds (dry) of FGR-95 and hollow. I'm finalizing what I want in teeth and here is what I'm going for.

I was too curious about the latex thing so I decided to check my latex. Most of it was good and I started a latex version. I brushed in a layer and let is dry a bit. Then a second. Then some of the neck was starting to detach from the mold... I wrestled with it a little and ended up putting some tape down so that it could stay together long enough for the latex could hold the seam together after I put the mold together. I had to blow the latex out with some air so that it was thin enough to dry from the inside but overall it went OK.

I pulled it out of the mold without taking the front shell apart. I shouldn't have done that. But I kinda figured that it was underdone anyway. The end stayed in the mold. Considering this is a test and proof of concept I'm happy enough. The latex is a bit thin too. Not Grusderk thin, but still thin.

This is about as small as I was expecting since the shrinkage I didn't design for. This is a smaller bio then the stunt bio and I think it would be good if I was to run with it.

I won't do this again. Even though the mold release worked well, it took a bit of time to get the residual latex out of the little nooks and crannies. It was also a pain to get the latex in and it didn't really come out right.


.

 

[Darth Pinhead]

Well, looks like you have a nice new half mask! Latex in rubber needs air movement to cure. I sit a heater fan about 4" from my opening for a few hours. George swears by a heat gun, but I don't have the patience to hold it and have grown tired of burning parts of hands I'm making, lol...

 

[TokyoRose]

That black latex actually looks pretty bad ass!!! lol.

 

[MasterAnubis]

I considered the heat gun. My heat gun gets really hot and I was worried about baking my mold. I really thought that part down there was cured enough too.

The mold was setup overnight with a space heater blowing into it (on low). But again, I don't know how this rubber responds to heat and I wasn't even planning on going this far with it. I told my wife that I didn't know if this was so encouraging that I should try it again or good enough to say that I tried it and not do it again. She reminded me that this is not what I made this mold for.

 

[MasterAnubis]

That black latex actually looks pretty bad ass!!! lol.

It's "Bat Black" from The Monster Makers. Pre tinted RD-407.

 

[Darth Pinhead]

I've gone so far as to stick a BBQ skewer into the depths and pull it out to see if wet latex comes out on it. Alas, a fun attempt for you!

 

[made007]

thanks for explainig all that, and to share it with us, learning every day keep going,

 

[MasterAnubis]

thanks for explainig all that, and to share it with us, learning every day keep going,

Your welcome.

I think that if I work on this latex mask it may get manibles and I can go either for a damaged look or just rough. I am going to use this to make measurements to see if I made this thing big enough though. I'm still a little worried that it may be just a little too small to fit everything.

I'm getting a bit impatient with the silicone. I may end up getting the Gel-10 and going with silicone calking and paint. Usurper used Gel-OO but I'm not sure if there is a significant different between the two for this. Polytek says with a deadener the Gel-10 is like Gel-OO. I din't like the feel of the samples I saw with the deadener in it but there is a ton of techniques that I'll need to learn.

 

[MasterAnubis]

So, I have some pics I'd like a little feedback on.

The size up on the latex was a bit disappointing the more I thought of it. My #1 had a huge air bubble in the left mandible that allowed it to brake off. Oh well, opportunity. The point is that I could get the stunt P1 on it fairly good with that mandible gone. I'm not about to break off the other for a perfect fit. I'm going off the assumption that I'll get a 1:1 with silicone and the cheek area can be squeezed in a little to fit there. But how does this really look?

I put it on as even as possible to get the best view from one side. On a side note, you can tell my dome isn't nearly as pronounced as it could be.

Under, you can see the missing mandible and the little room I have for the ends of them. It appears that I may have made the madibles too long. I think they may be enough room when they're tucked in.

.

 

[made007]

looks nice with the bio on

 

[bloodpred]

Im new on the lair wanted to know
how much clay u used on the sculpt???