Am I the only one that thinks Return of the Jedi is a turkey?
- Thread starter GotWookiee
- Start date
Timmythekid
Sr Member
I had an interesting experience regarding Jedi a week or so ago. I've been annually portioning out the movies one by one to my now almost 6 year old, who's been absolutely absorbed. We hit Jedi this year, and while I had anticipated that it would be a kind of weak viewing for me (having long ago fallen to the nerd-rage against the Ewoks, stupid gags, and general nonsense going on in the film), it was exhilerating. Watching the film with a kid the age that the film is aimed at alters the experience completely, and I highly recommend it. I found it put me in the right frame of mind to take in a high-energy, fun adventure with a bit of mythological undertones. It hits all the right notes if you're in this head space - great action beats (the Rancor, the Sarlac pit battle, all of the space stuff, all hell breaking loose in the forest battle, and of course the throne room duel); some goofy sight gags (which aren't dragged out, but simply act as throwaway moments), and then the emotional kick in the stomach when Anakin, having saved his son and destroyed the most evil being in the universe, doesn't get to stay with his son, but dies from his sacrifice. Child = :cry. Even now, several more viewings later, he refuses to wach that scene or the funeral, but that sacrifice to try and make ammends despite the cost was the most important thing he took away from the film, so we're not talking about "kids are dumb" as to why he loved the movie. Anyways, just a couple of thoughts...
ive actually been doing some screen capping from ROTJ and i believe why we as fans dont like this movie as much as the others (apart from as mentioned all the idiotic quirks, jokes and dodgy characters) is there really isnt much input from the Empire ........... much of the movie is taken up by Jabbas Palace, Re-visiting Yoda and the Ewoks mix in the sequences on board the Rebel ships.
Scenes Featuring Vader, and Stormtroopers are quite scarce when you actually analyse the movie, yes we have Biker Scouts which are pretty cool looking, but its pretty sad i guess that the last time we see a Stormtrooper its his helmet being used as Drums :unsure
Just a thought really :confused
Scenes Featuring Vader, and Stormtroopers are quite scarce when you actually analyse the movie, yes we have Biker Scouts which are pretty cool looking, but its pretty sad i guess that the last time we see a Stormtrooper its his helmet being used as Drums :unsure
Just a thought really :confused
ROTJ was doomed from the moment that Lucas pulled 'the plot twist' out of the air at the end of TESB.
Because there is really nothing that makes being a Jedi special now since there was _never_ a reason to lie to Luke and Yoda and Ben now look like criminally negligent monsters-
YouTube - How The Empire Strikes Back Should Have Ended‏
Similarly, it was NOT 'heroic' for Luke to take on seven star destroyers, 400 odd TIE fighters and upwards of 50,000 men all by himself. It was suicidally stupid. The ONLY way for that to work would be if we were seeing 'time out of order'. As everything that happened with Leia and Han occured -after- Luke was already on Bespin.
That said, what use was Luke, once there? He got into a fight that he could have easily extricated himself from (by cutting a hole in a wall with his saber) and his presence on Bespin was in fact _too late_ to save anyone as the escape was essentially already in progress when he arrived. R2 helped but Luke was weak and ill-focussed and suckered into attacking a man when his sole justification for being there was to make a fast escape.
Then, when ROTJ comes around, you have Luke being all sappy about how Darth Daddy was really a good guy at heart (having chopped off his arm, tortured his daughter and forced Luke to choose suicide) and you wonder...why?
Because if Luke gives up on his friends -this time- (when he can actually be of some use to them, on Endor or in Space) to go save Anakin, he is putting one man ahead of all the things he believes in.
It's still OCD nonsense it's just that this time Luke is doing it for the other team. We call that treachery and it is punishable by death.
There was also never any doubt in my mind that the Emperor was playing a head game with Luke (Dun Moch) and so throwing away his saber after getting it back was the equivalent of refusing to end the war by doing what was necessary rather than 'socially acceptable'.
Screamed contrivance to me. Because it essentially says: "Good cannot kill evil, only evil can." And thus we should rely on evil to kill itself. Which is a dumb idea and made Luke look totally femme too.
Did not like anything in the opening return to Tatooine because again, it makes it look like Luke has to surrender to win. And you know that if Jabba is pissed, he's not going to feed you to some Sarlaac in the desert.
He's going to put a blaster to your head and kill you right there. First among the victims being Han Solo who would have been dead, five minutes after he arrived, as an example: 'Because Jabba said it would be that way'.
WHY put all of your friends at risk _by surrendering_ when you could just walk in behind a Rebel strike team and take Han directly? It's not like that chunk of carbonite is going to be all that vulnerable to antipersonnel weapons...
Ewoks... Urgh. Biometrically, they are not correct for arboreal tree dwellers, being fat and short limbed instead of long and thin. That plus the obvious seams on the suits really stood out to me, even in 1983.
George Lucas also needs to read up on his history. The Viet Cong were betrayed by their Northern Allies as the latter gave away the game to U.S. intelligence through false signal traffic that staggered the attack times (1 day apart), weeks before hand. The VC didn't win the Tet Offensive, they lost nearly 90% of their effectives and were WIPED OUT as a fighting force. In 1968. Five years before we pulled out.
It was deliberate of course, without a southern political resistance, the North could just walk into South Vietnam and start running the place without contest. But is that really the symbol you want the Ewoks to stand for?
And let's not forget all those traps with the 10-20 ton logs. That would take _weeks_ to set up. And yet (in the novelization) it's not until the Luke and Leia both speak up to convince the Ewoks that it's necessary to fight back that they actually start planning.
And what happens with the whole Rebel strike fleet coming in without proof that the shield is down or -staying- (in what is clearly an ambush) once it becomes likely that Han & Co. are long since dead?
The threeway schizoid ending also bugged me because it mixes emotions at a time when the plot needs to be focussed.
ROTJs plot logic is all over the IITSian place. And the disaster started in TESB.
Because there is really nothing that makes being a Jedi special now since there was _never_ a reason to lie to Luke and Yoda and Ben now look like criminally negligent monsters-
YouTube - How The Empire Strikes Back Should Have Ended‏
Similarly, it was NOT 'heroic' for Luke to take on seven star destroyers, 400 odd TIE fighters and upwards of 50,000 men all by himself. It was suicidally stupid. The ONLY way for that to work would be if we were seeing 'time out of order'. As everything that happened with Leia and Han occured -after- Luke was already on Bespin.
That said, what use was Luke, once there? He got into a fight that he could have easily extricated himself from (by cutting a hole in a wall with his saber) and his presence on Bespin was in fact _too late_ to save anyone as the escape was essentially already in progress when he arrived. R2 helped but Luke was weak and ill-focussed and suckered into attacking a man when his sole justification for being there was to make a fast escape.
Then, when ROTJ comes around, you have Luke being all sappy about how Darth Daddy was really a good guy at heart (having chopped off his arm, tortured his daughter and forced Luke to choose suicide) and you wonder...why?
Because if Luke gives up on his friends -this time- (when he can actually be of some use to them, on Endor or in Space) to go save Anakin, he is putting one man ahead of all the things he believes in.
It's still OCD nonsense it's just that this time Luke is doing it for the other team. We call that treachery and it is punishable by death.
There was also never any doubt in my mind that the Emperor was playing a head game with Luke (Dun Moch) and so throwing away his saber after getting it back was the equivalent of refusing to end the war by doing what was necessary rather than 'socially acceptable'.
Screamed contrivance to me. Because it essentially says: "Good cannot kill evil, only evil can." And thus we should rely on evil to kill itself. Which is a dumb idea and made Luke look totally femme too.
Did not like anything in the opening return to Tatooine because again, it makes it look like Luke has to surrender to win. And you know that if Jabba is pissed, he's not going to feed you to some Sarlaac in the desert.
He's going to put a blaster to your head and kill you right there. First among the victims being Han Solo who would have been dead, five minutes after he arrived, as an example: 'Because Jabba said it would be that way'.
WHY put all of your friends at risk _by surrendering_ when you could just walk in behind a Rebel strike team and take Han directly? It's not like that chunk of carbonite is going to be all that vulnerable to antipersonnel weapons...
Ewoks... Urgh. Biometrically, they are not correct for arboreal tree dwellers, being fat and short limbed instead of long and thin. That plus the obvious seams on the suits really stood out to me, even in 1983.
George Lucas also needs to read up on his history. The Viet Cong were betrayed by their Northern Allies as the latter gave away the game to U.S. intelligence through false signal traffic that staggered the attack times (1 day apart), weeks before hand. The VC didn't win the Tet Offensive, they lost nearly 90% of their effectives and were WIPED OUT as a fighting force. In 1968. Five years before we pulled out.
It was deliberate of course, without a southern political resistance, the North could just walk into South Vietnam and start running the place without contest. But is that really the symbol you want the Ewoks to stand for?
And let's not forget all those traps with the 10-20 ton logs. That would take _weeks_ to set up. And yet (in the novelization) it's not until the Luke and Leia both speak up to convince the Ewoks that it's necessary to fight back that they actually start planning.
And what happens with the whole Rebel strike fleet coming in without proof that the shield is down or -staying- (in what is clearly an ambush) once it becomes likely that Han & Co. are long since dead?
The threeway schizoid ending also bugged me because it mixes emotions at a time when the plot needs to be focussed.
ROTJs plot logic is all over the IITSian place. And the disaster started in TESB.
I disagree. The characters of Yoda and Obi-Wan may have been doomed, but think about it. If we were to follow the story differently, would we have Obi-Wan admit his deception to Luke instead of uttering more bull**** by saying it was true from a certain point of view? And if so, what would he say? Were the Jedi not the do-gooder guardians of peace and justice the way Obi-Wan had told Luke? After all, did Obi-Wan not say "A yound Jedi named Darth Vader"? I don't know about the Expanded Universe, but I've never known a full fledged Jedi who went with the title Darth. Or was Darth even a title when both movies were written? Was that Vader's full name?
And my favorite part which was never brought up again, who was that "There is another" hope that Yoda was referring to? It can't be Leia. All she did was become a slave to Jabba in ROTJ. Ooo. What if Luke did have a sister but it wasn't Leia? That would be my approach.
Mara Jade's Father
Master Member
This is what should have been included at the end of ROTJ SE...
All the credits roll by and then a shot of the desert sands of Tatooine. The camera pans over and you see the rim of Sarlacc Pit and then you see a gauntlet hand of Fett grasping the edge. That's all you need. Lucas is a net for scenes that are throwbacks from classic movies. What is more classic than the old horror films where a hand comes popping from the grave at the end of the movie? "The End?"
I think in some cases they got a little over ambitious. I know what Lucas was trying to do with the Ewoks and that is not a bad idea. I think the problem was that when you look at the Ewoks, you see little people in costumes. And when they move, you see little people, (who are not that agile to begin with) who are struggling to move in bulk costumes. It is hard to buy what Lucas is trying to sell. I think it could work… but not back then. I believe if the Ewoks were CGI you would have solved most of the problems. If they looked and moved (ala jedi Yoda) more like a cross between a bear and a monkey instead of a cross between a Barney and a bear and remove some of the omre sappier story elements you would increase the believability factor of that part of the story.
I was disappointed in the final lightsaber duel. I think after the great duel in ESB, you need to make it the next one even better. I was surprised that Vader turned on the Empire simply because there were no other indications that he would. Some other scenes prior with interior struggles or something would have helped but it seemed to come out of left field.
I like the first part of the movie. I notice that if I am watching it on TV, after the barge blows up, I start looking for other things to watch. Maybe if they found a reason for Leia to spend the rest of the movie in the bikini, I’d keep watching, although the space battle is very good.
One last thing, where did the Ewoks rouge for Leia? I’m 12 years old watching this movie on 25MAY83 and she pops out of the hut and the first thing I think is, “Gawd, that’s a lot of makeup?” She goes from slave Leia babe to that. Even if they made makeup from roots and berries, how would they even know humans did that? Does Leia sendthem on a make-up run? It that rectangle thing on the chest of her uniform a lttle make-up compact?
All the credits roll by and then a shot of the desert sands of Tatooine. The camera pans over and you see the rim of Sarlacc Pit and then you see a gauntlet hand of Fett grasping the edge. That's all you need. Lucas is a net for scenes that are throwbacks from classic movies. What is more classic than the old horror films where a hand comes popping from the grave at the end of the movie? "The End?"
I think in some cases they got a little over ambitious. I know what Lucas was trying to do with the Ewoks and that is not a bad idea. I think the problem was that when you look at the Ewoks, you see little people in costumes. And when they move, you see little people, (who are not that agile to begin with) who are struggling to move in bulk costumes. It is hard to buy what Lucas is trying to sell. I think it could work… but not back then. I believe if the Ewoks were CGI you would have solved most of the problems. If they looked and moved (ala jedi Yoda) more like a cross between a bear and a monkey instead of a cross between a Barney and a bear and remove some of the omre sappier story elements you would increase the believability factor of that part of the story.
I was disappointed in the final lightsaber duel. I think after the great duel in ESB, you need to make it the next one even better. I was surprised that Vader turned on the Empire simply because there were no other indications that he would. Some other scenes prior with interior struggles or something would have helped but it seemed to come out of left field.
I like the first part of the movie. I notice that if I am watching it on TV, after the barge blows up, I start looking for other things to watch. Maybe if they found a reason for Leia to spend the rest of the movie in the bikini, I’d keep watching, although the space battle is very good.
One last thing, where did the Ewoks rouge for Leia? I’m 12 years old watching this movie on 25MAY83 and she pops out of the hut and the first thing I think is, “Gawd, that’s a lot of makeup?” She goes from slave Leia babe to that. Even if they made makeup from roots and berries, how would they even know humans did that? Does Leia sendthem on a make-up run? It that rectangle thing on the chest of her uniform a lttle make-up compact?
niennumb1
Master Member
All 5 pages of complaints about this movie doesn't change my take on ROTJ.
I was 5 at the time I saw the original in theaters and that may have something to do with it, but I love everything about ROTJ and I'll never think otherwise.
The SPECIAL EDITION though... oh there's things I won't like about that one for a long time. The three key things that will always bug me:
- The added in beak on the sarlaac monster
- Old Anakin replaced by Hayden at the end
- "Lapti Nek" completely replaced by "Jedi Rocks"
And nothing beats the awesomeness of Jabba's Palace, Speeder Bikes, and Luke's new green Saber igniting on the skiff for the first time! I'll never forget that moment. "IT'S GREEN!!!!!!!!!!!! HE'S A JEDI!!!!" (Well at the time I thought he was a jedi at that moment).
Special deep childhood memories of that film remain a true gem in my life. BUT that's just me. I can understand many of people's arguments here about ROTJ, but I love it.
I was 5 at the time I saw the original in theaters and that may have something to do with it, but I love everything about ROTJ and I'll never think otherwise.
The SPECIAL EDITION though... oh there's things I won't like about that one for a long time. The three key things that will always bug me:
- The added in beak on the sarlaac monster
- Old Anakin replaced by Hayden at the end
- "Lapti Nek" completely replaced by "Jedi Rocks"
And nothing beats the awesomeness of Jabba's Palace, Speeder Bikes, and Luke's new green Saber igniting on the skiff for the first time! I'll never forget that moment. "IT'S GREEN!!!!!!!!!!!! HE'S A JEDI!!!!" (Well at the time I thought he was a jedi at that moment).
Special deep childhood memories of that film remain a true gem in my life. BUT that's just me. I can understand many of people's arguments here about ROTJ, but I love it.
kamandi
Sr Member
Having only the OT to inform us of Jedi training for roughly 20 years I always thought "that's all?"
Luke trains with a laser ball on the Falcon for a few hours. Then Ben dies.
Luke trains on Dagobah for a few days, maybe a week at most. Then he leaves in a hurry.
But it's ROTJ that really ruins the idea of Jedi as elite warriors.
Yoda goes from "you mustn't leave! Your training is incomplete!" to "All done. You're a Jedi. Here's your membership card." WHY!?!
Postal workers are better trained than Jedi. Why isn't everyone in SW a friggin Jedi if it's that easy! All you need is a blood transfussion and long weekend.
Luke trains with a laser ball on the Falcon for a few hours. Then Ben dies.
Luke trains on Dagobah for a few days, maybe a week at most. Then he leaves in a hurry.
But it's ROTJ that really ruins the idea of Jedi as elite warriors.
Yoda goes from "you mustn't leave! Your training is incomplete!" to "All done. You're a Jedi. Here's your membership card." WHY!?!
Postal workers are better trained than Jedi. Why isn't everyone in SW a friggin Jedi if it's that easy! All you need is a blood transfussion and long weekend.
ShadowX81
Sr Member
I think if anything ESB is overrated. I can see why people love it, it just has always been the worst one for me. I think my problem with it is the aimlessness of it all. It gets good near the end, but for the majority of the movie Han and Liea are just wandering across the galaxy with no destination or plan.
George Lucas originally intended the film to be about Han and Liea going on some mission that would all but secure victory for the rebellion and then have it fall apart at the end. I feel that this would have created a much stronger film.
George Lucas originally intended the film to be about Han and Liea going on some mission that would all but secure victory for the rebellion and then have it fall apart at the end. I feel that this would have created a much stronger film.
niennumb1
Master Member
Wasn't there supposed to have been a period of time between ESB and ROTJ and Luke continued what he'd learned on his own? I don't think it was like a next week sort of thing.
Re: I'm I the only one that thinks Return of the Jedi is a turkey?
Far be it for me to defend the Empire. But it really wasn't unprotected. The protection was the deflector shield which in turn was protected by 2 divisions of crack Imperial troops. I guess the Emperor didn't foresee that these defenses could be defeated by monchichis.:thumbsdown
Far be it for me to defend the Empire. But it really wasn't unprotected. The protection was the deflector shield which in turn was protected by 2 divisions of crack Imperial troops. I guess the Emperor didn't foresee that these defenses could be defeated by monchichis.:thumbsdown
kamandi
Sr Member
Why shouldn't Jedi be a next week film? Based on what we saw on screen Boba Fett took Han straight back to Jabba. How hard did anyone have to look for him?
Once on Tatooine Han was guarded by an elite squad of belly dancers, muppets and a few pigs. Since Solo is a General in the rebellion (WTF!?!) he would be important enough to send in a rebel commando squad to extract him in 5 minutes instead of wasting 40 minutes of screen time. Right?
Cobalt60
Active Member
its pretty clear, after ROTS, exactly what Yoda&Obi were thinking in ROTJ.
after everything that happened in ROTS, (anaking killing their precious younglings)..
..everything they do to 'anakins youngling' is bitter payback:
they put Luke on tattooine, in the SAME house , with the SAME name..
they BARELY train him in the ways of the force..
(they teach him ONLY enough, for vader to sense him from across the galaxy)..
they teach him ONLY enough, to get himself KILLED.
"NO MORE training do you require".
they did it on purpose.
THIS is what palpatine meant when he said "Only Now, At The End, Do You Understand.."
YODA AND OBIWAN THREW LUKE UNDER A BUS!! :lol
(and then later, when anakin turns back to the good side, they sit there all smug at the end of ROTJ, like THIS was their plan all along).
--> it was.
they USED him, to get under anakin's skin.
they FED him to the emperor, so anakin could watch.
they KNEW anakin wouldn't sit idly by, and watch padme's love child,
getting brutally murdered by Sith Lightning..
(and they NEEDED anakin, to defeat the emperor).
..so they offered luke up as a sacrifice.
Luke was intentionally UN(der)TRAINED!
(they threw him under a bus)
(@Anakin: "...them apples, how do you like? eh? hmm? heh heh heh"[/yoda])
niennumb1
Master Member
Mara Jade's Father
Master Member
I read (I think it was the anotated screenplays) that one thing the director (?) did not like about the movie is that it did not illustrate the passage of time. From what I remember reading, the time between Hoth and the Falcon's arrival at Bespin was suppose to represent 6 months. And when you consider this, it makes more sense in the story. This explains the improvement in Luke's skills and how a ship without the ability to travel at lightspeed can get to another planet, (even if it is in the same star system, it is going to take some time). And how easily the Empire arrived before them (Vader was pretty patient to plan and set a trap for Luke). I also like the idea that Han and Leia were forced to be together for a long period of time which helped build a bond between them.
Ttaskmaster
Well-Known Member
Episodes 4-6 were pretty cool when I was younger.
Now, each time I watch them, the three films get less and less interesting.
What stood out most during the last viewing was that Han definitely becomes more of a one-dimensional nob. There is another film of the same era I've always been a massive fan of and, with each viewing the 'Han Solo rip-off' character in that is far more complex and interesting than this flat, soft, timewasting Corellian Coxcomb!
I'd put it down to having grown up, but the fact that I still love most of the other films and TV from my childhood argues against this.
Oh, and the re-done versions, plus Episodes 1-3, were utter attrocities of tacked-on, dross!!
Space Epic?
Space Epic-Fail!!
Now, each time I watch them, the three films get less and less interesting.
What stood out most during the last viewing was that Han definitely becomes more of a one-dimensional nob. There is another film of the same era I've always been a massive fan of and, with each viewing the 'Han Solo rip-off' character in that is far more complex and interesting than this flat, soft, timewasting Corellian Coxcomb!
I'd put it down to having grown up, but the fact that I still love most of the other films and TV from my childhood argues against this.
Oh, and the re-done versions, plus Episodes 1-3, were utter attrocities of tacked-on, dross!!
Space Epic?
Space Epic-Fail!!
