AA case begins

[SithLord]

However the most mind blowing thing I witnessed with you and others. Were your earlier defense of these lies. Even when the recast of the MR stand was brought to attention. When I think many of the lies were quite obvious.

So now you say AA supporters defended lies? Honestly...

Was the MR stand in the case? Did MR sue AA for the design rights? No, but people here made issue of that and I'm sure brought it to MR's attention.

As far as anyone knew back then, no one else sculpted the helmet and armor so when the armor came out and it was a recast of fanmade armor, the argument was did he have rights to it and could he recast fanmade armor. Then it was found out that Brian Muir sculpted the armor, so all that was left was the helmet with no one accounted for who sculpted it and AA claiming the molds were the sculpture. Those were simple arguments. But it seems you like to construe things to implicate the intentional support of lies.

 

[Darkknight0667]

Guilty until proven innocent.
Benefit of the doubt.
Etc.

What was mind blowing to the other side was how quickly he was vilified on every little thing possible nearly from the beginning. Several people stated from the get go he was not and did not know anything about the prop community and that maybe the MR stand was brought to him to use. Without the plaque, who would know if they didn't know what MR was?

Not all of us can be the all knowing, all seeing Carnac the Magnificent like you Ben.

Even if he didn't know that it was MR's, he knew that it wasn't his and yet had no problem with throwing it on his vacuum form machine and making his own copies of it.

Seeing as how he used someone else's work for the stand and someone else's work for the armor and lied about having the original molds (as even I could see, and I know jack squat about trooper helmets) and bent the truth and change his pitch numerous times in response to people bringing his fabrications to his attention (I'll leave his lying about actually sculpting the helmets out, since that only came to light during the trial) , I can't help but wonder just how many other "benefits of the doubt" you and others were willing to give him for his lies and thievery before you'd finally see him for the shady human being he is. Not only that, but the fact some of you sound genuinely shocked that he would try to take credit for the sculpt that Liz Moore created, after seeing him try and take credit for the work of others all along (MR's stand, the armor with clear tells from another maker, etc.) is hysterical, bordering on frightening.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Guilty until proven innocent.
Benefit of the doubt.
Etc.

What was mind blowing to the other side was how quickly he was vilified on every little thing possible nearly from the beginning. Several people stated from the get go he was not and did not know anything about the prop community and that maybe the MR stand was brought to him to use. Without the plaque, who would know if they didn't know what MR was?

Not all of us can be the all knowing, all seeing Carnac the Magnificent like you Ben.

C'mon now Mike. The every little thing you cite are all of the examples of differences between Ainsworth's pieces and the originals. Sorry for SL, but his photos only served to prove what everyone AGAINST AA was saying from the get go, at least in my eyes. The biggest glaring difference was in the back tubes and ear pieces, at least to me.

It boggled my mind that people could not see at least those two differences. I don't know if the vision was clouded by owning a piece of "screen used mold" history or what.

You cats know I am one of the Anti crowd, but I don't think you guys supported lies. I think you were duped by one of the assembly line people from ANH. All of this bitterness regarding this or that member is all horse***** to me. As has been said before, it's all plastic and fiberglass. The debating back and forth is a fun way to break up the day. There were some good arguments for the Pro-AA crowd, but those were few and far between.

Whether the pieces depreciate in value or not is not important to those who bought SDS pieces. If you are like me, you are going to keep what you have and the odds of you ever selling are slim and none. Slim is packing his bags, getting ready to leave. Hell, SL paid a tidy sum of money for one of his prize pieces. Despite some remarks from folks who are markedly anti-community most times, community when it suits them, we are all part of the same Geekdom.

To me, not knowing the full story about Ainsworth when I found out about the deal, I sincerely thought it as some charlatan trying to take and claim a piece of my childhood for his own. That is what hacked me off. I know it seems hokey to some of you, but that is how I personally saw it. I know that all of these things I grew to love as a kid sprang from the fertile imagination of Lucas and his hired gun artisans. Andrew Ainsworth may be a lot of things, but he is NO artisan.

 

[atacpdx]

Good Lord Almighty!!!!

Why is this so hard people? Grow up already!!! This whole thread can be boiled down to...

AA Lied! The truth is now out.

Anti-AA'ers are thrilled. They are dancing and yelling "Told ya so". Some are really rubbing it in as payback. They doubted AA and fussed since day one. Regardless of motives, they argued at every turn that AA's claims were crap. Some argued so vehemently they were banned.

Pro-AA's are sad. They are now faced with "Told ya so" and in light of that, they are squirming to avoid making the statement "I was wrong". They drank the AA Kool-aid. They overlooked glaring issues in favor of "a piece of history".

The pro's need to be gracious. The Anti's need to be humble. Gino needs to play nice with other people's pictures. AA needs to panhandle so he can pay his upcoming debts and everyone needs to thank Brian Muir and Liz Moore.

See...
Simple! :angel

Oh yes and mods since the Moog was right about AA after all, you ought to invite him back.

 

[SithLord]

C
Whether the pieces depreciate in value or not is not important to those who bought SDS pieces. If you are like me, you are going to keep what you have and the odds of you ever selling are slim and none. Slim is packing his bags, getting ready to leave. Hell, SL paid a tidy sum of money for one of his prize pieces. Despite some remarks from folks who are markedly anti-community most times, community when it suits them, we are all part of the same Geekdom.

Uhhhh, which piece? I sold my SDS helmets a long time ago...and got them at market price.

 

[SithLord]

Pro-AA's are sad. They are now faced with "Told ya so" and in light of that, they are squirming to avoid making the statement "I was wrong". They drank the AA Kool-aid. They overlooked glaring issues in favor of "a piece of history".

The pro's need to be gracious. The Anti's need to be humble. Gino needs to play nice with other people's pictures. AA needs to panhandle so he can pay his upcoming debts and everyone needs to thank Brian Muir and Liz Moore.

See...
Simple! :angel

I WAS WRONG.
crycrycrycrycrycry

:lol

 

[motivealloy]

Could someone post the "AA proof" photo that's on Prop Den?

I can't access that site cause my firewall here at work is blocking it. :cry

If that's not possible at least give a description of what the photo is. I keep reading about that actual proof photo and have no idea what it shows. Also, has there been an official ruling yet? I read that he has been flushed out as a liar but what of the case?

 

[defstartrooper]

Good Lord Almighty!!!!

Why is this so hard people? Grow up already!!! This whole thread can be boiled down to...

AA Lied! The truth is now out.

Anti-AA'ers are thrilled. They are dancing and yelling "Told ya so". Some are really rubbing it in as payback. They doubted AA and fussed since day one. Regardless of motives, they argued at every turn that AA's claims were crap. Some argued so vehemently they were banned.

Pro-AA's are sad. They are now faced with "Told ya so" and in light of that, they are squirming to avoid making the statement "I was wrong". They drank the AA Kool-aid. They overlooked glaring issues in favor of "a piece of history".

The pro's need to be gracious. The Anti's need to be humble. Gino needs to play nice with other people's pictures. AA needs to panhandle so he can pay his upcoming debts and everyone needs to thank Brian Muir and Liz Moore.

See...
Simple!

Oh yes and mods since the Moog was right about AA after all, you ought to invite him

And those that were just interested in knowing the truth one way or the other.
Not taking the stories from either side as gospel and actually trying to weigh up the arguments from all camps and trying to get to the truth.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Could someone post the "AA proof" photo that's on Prop Den?

I can't access that site cause my firewall here at work is blocking it. :cry

If that's not possible at least give a description of what the photo is. I keep reading about that actual proof photo and have no idea what it shows.

Can't post the link, as Brian Muir has asked it not to be shared outside of the Prop Den. The picture is basically the clay sculpt of the first trooper bucket. The eyes are one piece, as opposed to two. The mouth area and teardrop look different as well, but it is CLEARLY recognizable as the trooper we have today. All credit to the late Liz Moore for her master craftsmanship in sculpting the helmet.

 

[GINO]

Actually, once the pics are posted on the web, don't they become public domain?
Tell me if I'm wrong.

 

[DARKSIDE72]

Oh yes and mods since the Moog was right about AA after all, you ought to invite him back.

Lifting that ban would be the honorable and right thing to do.

 

[Star Wars Helmets]

Lifting that ban would be the honorable and right thing to do.

Hey I'm all for that. I miss Moogy on the RPF.

Bring him back from the South China Sea's

Thats 3 votes already.

Cheers

Jez

 

[motivealloy]

Can't post the link, as Brian Muir has asked it not to be shared outside of the Prop Den. The picture is basically the clay sculpt of the first trooper bucket. The eyes are one piece, as opposed to two. The mouth area and teardrop look different as well, but it is CLEARLY recognizable as the trooper we have today. All credit to the late Liz Moore for her master craftsmanship in sculpting the helmet.

Thanks for the description Qui-Gonzalez. :thumbsup

Is on a work bench with tools and such, or more like a final beauty shot? Black and white I'm assuming.

I'll have to see if I can access the site from home. Sounds like an interesting photo. Maybe someone will make a Liz Moore tribute sculpt trooper helmet...

 

[dcarty]

All of this bitterness regarding this or that member is all horse***** to me. As has been said before, it's all plastic and fiberglass. The debating back and forth is a fun way to break up the day.

Despite some remarks from folks who are markedly anti-community most times, community when it suits them, we are all part of the same Geekdom.

To me, not knowing the full story about Ainsworth when I found out about the deal, I sincerely thought it as some charlatan trying to take and claim a piece of my childhood for his own. That is what hacked me off. I know it seems hokey to some of you, but that is how I personally saw it. I know that all of these things I grew to love as a kid sprang from the fertile imagination of Lucas and his hired gun artisans. Andrew Ainsworth may be a lot of things, but he is NO artisan.

I generally tend to stay away from these "tempests in teapots"--I tend to play my hand very close to the chest--but I think the above sentiments kind of capture how I feel about the situation.

Overall what strikes me is how sad all of this is. Sad that people have become so hateful and vicious over something that really should be a fun diversion that helps some of us recapture our childhood. I understand that we are passionate about our hobby but, really, nobody's life depends on this stuff--it's a costume.

Especially sad that AA, who could have been a hero if he had just been up front about everything, has ruined his own reputation and sullied his product for a lot of people. I guess he thought his product would have more cache if it was thought that he had created the trooper helmet instead of merely fabricating it. How many people lined up to buy his stuff just based upon that fact he was the guy that originally made the helmets in 1976 (not designed, sculpted, pooped, whatever)? Even though I couldn't afford one of the things that idea alone was a tremendous attraction to me. How cool would it be to have a stormtrooper helmet made by the guy who made them for the original movie? AA didn't have to lie to get people to buy his stuff! It might not have appealed to everyone but nothing ever does. If Greg Jein or Brick Price or whoever decided to start marketing replicas of their original props we'd all flip! (not that AA is in any way, shape, or form a Greg Jein or the like but hopefully you see my point)

Ultimately, about a year ago, I was able to get ahold of an SDS TIE helmet from a fellow RPFer. Now, whenever I look at it, whatever coolness factor the design holds will be tempered by knowledge of his character, not just rumors and speculation.

Sad.

Dave

 

[exoray]

Actually, once the pics are posted on the web, don't they become public domain?
Tell me if I'm wrong.

Public domain no, ownership and copyright are maintained...

But on the other side of the coin, if they were used in the court case as evidence then yes they will become public domain (for nonprofit use) unless the release of the court documents is blocked by the courts...

As for Moog, I'll toss the vote in, although I suspect it will be a repeat of staff policy...

 

[tgreco]

Actually, once the pics are posted on the web, don't they become public domain?
Tell me if I'm wrong.

incorrect

copyright is always kept by the owner of the pics, regardless of where they appear unless someone expressly says they are public domain

just because they were used in court, and those proceedings are public, does not imply forfeiture of ownership

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Thanks for the description Qui-Gonzalez. :thumbsup

Is on a work bench with tools and such, or more like a final beauty shot? Black and white I'm assuming.

I'll have to see if I can access the site from home. Sounds like an interesting photo. Maybe someone will make a Liz Moore tribute sculpt trooper helmet...

It's on a stand, there is a McQuarrie looking helmet to the right in the photo and what looks to be pieces of armor on the table. There also APPEARS to still be some shavings on the stand. It's a very cool piece of nostalgia.

 

[Tyler Durden]

The images could also fall under fair use if it meets the four statutory factors.

 

[defstartrooper]

Regardless of the legal issues if someones asked that pics not be posted you should respect their wishes.

 

[Lord Abaddon]

And those that were just interested in knowing the truth one way or the other.
Not taking the stories from either side as gospel and actually trying to weigh up the arguments from all camps and trying to get to the truth.

Hallefrigginlujah! Exactly!

And the truth is always somewhere in the middle.

If I had believed every "obvious lie" that people told or showed on the RPF about Wampa, Gavidoc, Braks, RAC, TE, Gino, Jez, Treadwell, Clutch and about 90% of the RPF then I wouldn't have any friends, wouldn't buy or sell with anyone, wouldn't talk with anyone and would think everyone has some nefarious personality.

Which is why, not having sat down to tea with AA, nor been with him in '76, nor having been privy to his life, nor having visited his shop, nor having read through the LFL historical pictures and documents, nor talking with Brian Muir, John Richardson, nor etc. and so on I and others were willing to see what happened and learn over time rather than pull out our torches and rope.

And what sullied the entire thing more were the shenanigans of the primary TK makers in the background of it all actually ending up lending credence to AA's actions. After all, if they loved the TK so much and were so happy that the original maker was now involved...how come they came out trashing him, his work, and everything about him from the very start? How did they KNOW what he was all about when they never did anything more than talk to the man on the phone...and why do that in the first place if he wasn't the real deal? Hmm...because he ditzed them on entering into a business deal? Because they were afraid of competition? Whether true or not, that was all out there.

Add to that the pile on by those TK maker's friends (and partners) into ANY thread talking about AA and his helmets, and not just talking but slamming and insulting those who supported that AA *MIGHT* be real, just lent more to the "pro-AA" side.

It's the "he doth protest too much" that pushed a lot of people more to AA than away. Only when some hard evidence started to come out, due to the trial, that even those willing to give him benefit of the doubt started to back off (including me).

Lending to AA was also the fact he contributed to the 501st, including charity work. That he was always upfront with people who had problems and always open to show people his shop. Reading the UK prop forum it's pretty clear he was not at all the heinous villain that the US prop members portrayed in spades.

Why did he do what he did? Only he knows. Why was he on one hand seemingly kind and generous, and yet on the other hand some greedy, lying thief? Somewhere in all this is the real Andrew Ainsworth.

It's a sad day for both the pro and anti AA camps.