Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release)

The Wook said:
I just didn't like how her role was written to be so instantly all-powerful.But my love for her was stunted time after time after time in the movie, by her absurd facility with the Force, just hours after learning of its existence.


The Wook
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I wouldn't say she's all powerful. It took here a fair bit of work to fight off Kylo's Mind probing, she had to try three times to use the mind trick effectively on a stormtrooper and she held her own against Kylo (didn't completely whoop his arse) a Kylo, BTW who had taken a hit from Chewie's bowcaster which we saw completely devastate everything else it hit. He took that shot and got up and then took on Finn before getting to Rey. So yes, she beat him... once she opened her heart up fully to the Force and she was able to turn the tables on him with it's help... but he wasn't at 100% either.

I wouldn't say she was portrayed as all powerful, or that she didn't have to struggle either. She had to survive on Jakku BY HERSELF for over ten years while presumeably being constantly assaulted by other scavengers trying to take what she found. She was separated from her parents at such an alarmingly young age and must bear the rough life alone on jakku because she feels it's the only shot she has of ever seeing her family again.

I'd say she's suffered. And I'd say she's sacrificed. And I'd say she has struggled. What I WOULD NOT say is that she's a Mary Sue.
 
kristenhenry70 said:
she had to try three times to use the mind trick effectively on a stormtrooper
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There are still two big problems with that scene:

1) It should not have been possible with the same stormtrooper.
A pick-pocket does not go up to his victim and tells him that "Hello, I'm going to steal your wallet" before he does it. Because if you tell the victim, then the victim will be on his guard and it will not work.
We should have seen a change of Stormtrooper: have her try and fail once, cut to another scene, back to Rey after time has passed: shift-change, new trooper. Mind-trick works.

2) We have not been shown that Rey would have even heard about mind-tricks. We could have had someone tell her a story about it on Jakku or Han talk about it on the Falcon or something similar - that would have worked. She can't just pull it out of her behind. Maybe it is explained in the novelization or in a deleted scene, but if it wasn't in the movie itself then it does not count.

BTW... At this point it is almost exactly four weeks since I saw exactly this scene, and I am still discussing it to hell... probably repeating myself in the same thread over and over, as more people see the movie and post.
 
kristenhenry70 said:
I wouldn't say she's all powerful. It took here a fair bit of work to fight off Kylo's Mind probing, she had to try three times to use the mind trick effectively on a stormtrooper and she held her own against Kylo (didn't completely whoop his arse) a Kylo, BTW who had taken a hit from Chewie's bowcaster which we saw completely devastate everything else it hit. He took that shot and got up and then took on Finn before getting to Rey. So yes, she beat him... once she opened her heart up fully to the Force and she was able to turn the tables on him with it's help... but he wasn't at 100% either.

I wouldn't say she was portrayed as all powerful, or that she didn't have to struggle either. She had to survive on Jakku BY HERSELF for over ten years while presumeably being constantly assaulted by other scavengers trying to take what she found. She was separated from her parents at such an alarmingly young age and must bear the rough life alone on jakku because she feels it's the only shot she has of ever seeing her family again.

I'd say she's suffered. And I'd say she's sacrificed. And I'd say she has struggled. What I WOULD NOT say is that she's a Mary Sue.
Click to expand...

I'm talking about struggling with the Force after she's learned of its existence. Struggling to harness it, to develop it, to control it. Han tells her it exists, and boom, she's beating down a near-Sith Lord who can stop laser blasts in mid flight, and throw her 30 feet in the air with a flick of his finger--all with a weapon she's never wielded before in her life. Too much, too soon, Mary Sue.

The Wook
 
The Wook said:
I didn't know TFA was gonna be a total ripoff of ANH before I saw the movie. Maybe you did. But I was spoiler-free when I walked into the theater on December 17th.

I agree, there is no correlation with a film's box office haul and its artistic quality. I was merely pointing out that it bombed in China, thereby dooming it to fall short of Avatar's worldwide record. That, plus the fact that it's faltering domestically, as well, nearly being toppled by The Revenant this past weekend.

Your characterization of TFA having one foot solidly in the past is a gross understatement. It is a lazy, uninspired, shameless, and cynical rip-off.

But it being a ripoff is not the only problem I've articulated in this thread. I have past posts buried somewhere in this monstrosity that point to other faults in the film, such as the out-of-character part they wrote for Chewie. The writing was awful, much of the acting was phoned in (Ford), the film was improperly lit, the soundtrack was dull to the point of being conspicuously absent, and the laws of physics were blatantly ignored like in so many other movies in the last decade or so.

However, the two most egregious faults in the film are that it is a blatant ripoff of ANH, and that the protagonist is a Mary Sue. I'm all for girl power, but the feminist movement is ill-served by studios creating heroines who know everything, who never struggle with their gifts, who never work at honing their gifts, and never make sacrifices along the way. Perhaps Rey will do that in Episode VIII, but it'll be too late. It should've happened in TFA. I love Daisy Ridley, and I posted on this thread previously that I think she did a fantastic job in the role--I just didn't like how her role was written to be so instantly all-powerful. I posted that I fell in love with Rey when she quipped to Finn, "That was lucky!". But my love for her was stunted time after time after time in the movie, by her absurd facility with the Force, just hours after learning of its existence.


The Wook
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I went in pretty much cold, too -- no spoilers except who was in the cast, and the fact that Han died. That was it. I knew literally nothing else about the film, so we were in pretty much the same boat there.

I don't think Rey is a Mary Sue....yet. I think right now, Rey is a mystery. If it's literally never explained why/how she has these abilities, then yeah, total Mary Sue/Wesley Crusher. But if it's explained later -- and I strongly suspect it will be -- then maybe she's powerful for a reason.

At this point, I'm inclined to assume there's a reason she can do what she can do, why she knows what she knows, and how it all seems so innate. There's a reason she was left on Jakku, too, and in Unkar Plutt's care for that matter. So, for now, I don't mind that she's powerful, and I don't see it as "YAY GIRL POWER!!" for its own sake.

I also strongly suspect we'll see her limitations as the film trilogy progresses.

But, regardless, I doubt anything I say is gonna sway you one way or the other about the film.

Sorry you didn't like it. Maybe the next one will retroactively redeem it, the way a crappy film can retroactively stain a film you liked.
 
The Wook said:
I'm talking about struggling with the Force after she's learned of its existence. Struggling to harness it, to develop it, to control it. Han tells her it exists, and boom, she's beating down a near-Sith Lord who can stop laser blasts in mid flight, and throw her 30 feet in the air with a flick of his finger--all with a weapon she's never wielded before in her life. Too much, too soon, Mary Sue.

The Wook
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Even though she was unaware of what it is called, the Force was ALWAYS with her. They made a point of her saying to Finn we had no idea how she was able to fly the Falcon through the graveyard as she did. It was the Force but she didn't know it. I said previously, everyone is so hung up on my he idea that without training, a Temple, a Master, the Force can't be used effectively. Says who? If the Force has its own "will" and guides events, what is to prevent it from manifesting in an individual in a very powerful and profound way even though they may not have trained?
 
I've said before, it's hard to whine about story in part 1 of a 3 part series. The holes people want to decry could very well be answered in the next two flicks....take a pill for god sakes.

Rey's first line to Luke could be, i'm getting this feeling, i had it in the interrogation chamber and in the fight with ren....

Luke, "that would be me.."


I'm not saying it happens, but, it could...In all likelihood there ARE supposed to mysteries at this point. Deal with it already.
 
Darth Lars said:
There are still two big problems with that scene:

1) It should not have been possible with the same stormtrooper.
...
We should have seen a change of Stormtrooper: have her try and fail once, cut to another scene, back to Rey after time has passed: shift-change, new trooper. Mind-trick works.
Click to expand...

That wouldn´t have shown her ability to "mind trick" improving but maybe made the audience ask themselves if the next stormtrooper was simply just weaker minded.

2) We have not been shown that Rey would have even heard about mind-tricks. We could have had someone tell her a story about it on Jakku or Han talk about it on the Falcon or something similar - that would have worked. She can't just pull it out of her behind. Maybe it is explained in the novelization or in a deleted scene, but if it wasn't in the movie itself then it does not count.
Click to expand...

Yes, that is something that made me scratch my head, too, and the only in-universe explanation that I was able to come up with was that she had made contact with Kylo Ren and in addition to reading his feelings about Darth Vader she may have picked up one thing or the other by accident. Not unheard of in the realm of Sci Fi and Fantasy. Vulcan mind-meld, anyone? Oh wait, wrong franchise ...

BTW... At this point it is almost exactly four weeks since I saw exactly this scene, and I am still discussing it to hell... probably repeating myself in the same thread over and over, as more people see the movie and post.
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HAH!!! You are warming up to that movie, admit it! I have seen a post that you had made in the spoiler thread almost a year ago that you fear you´ll hate this movie, but here you are, still discussing it :p I bet we are going to have that beer at CE3 in London in a few months, talking about TFA :D
 
The Wook said:
I'm talking about struggling with the Force after she's learned of its existence. Struggling to harness it, to develop it, to control it. Han tells her it exists, and boom, she's beating down a near-Sith Lord who can stop laser blasts in mid flight, and throw her 30 feet in the air with a flick of his finger--all with a weapon she's never wielded before in her life. Too much, too soon, Mary Sue.

The Wook
Click to expand...

Using her natural survival skills and staff training against a guy who's gut shot and already went a few rounds with Finn earlier. I don't know if you've done any martial arts or not but I can tell you that a few minutes of sparring can really wear a person out, even someone in good shape, and especially someone who's been gut shot. That Kylo was able to even stand and fight at all is a testament to his strength but it shouldn't be surprising that he lost to 2 trained and/or seasoned fighters, sure, they're not familiar with the weapon they were using but that sort of evens things out in my opinion; Kylo is (arguably) stronger and more experienced but he's severely wounded, Rey & Finn both know how to fight and Rey is discovering her Force talents but neither are trained with a lightsaber so that evens things out but ultimately team Finn-Rey have the advantage in that there's two of them so that Rey goes into the fight relatively fresh before Kylo has had much of a chance to catch his breath.
 
Solo4114 said:
I don't see it as "YAY GIRL POWER!!" for its own sake.
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Oh it is most definitely for its own sake. No offense, Solo, but if you don't think Rey is a vessel for advancing Hollywood's liberal agenda, then you've got blinders on. That film was Girl Power run amok!

Bryancd said:
Even though she was unaware of what it is called, the Force was ALWAYS with her. They made a point of her saying to Finn we had no idea how she was able to fly the Falcon through the graveyard as she did. It was the Force but she didn't know it. I said previously, everyone is so hung up on my he idea that without training, a Temple, a Master, the Force can't be used effectively. Says who? If the Force has its own "will" and guides events, what is to prevent it from manifesting in an individual in a very powerful and profound way even though they may not have trained?
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I'll tell ya "say's who?"! Yoda! He told us that only a fully trained Jedi can resist being seduced by the dark side.

Bryancd said:
Which she directly addressed in the film.
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Remind me, please.

The Wook
 
The Wook said:
Oh it is most definitely for its own sake. No offense, Solo, but if you don't think Rey is a vessel for advancing Hollywood's liberal agenda, then you've got blinders on. That film was Girl Power run amok!
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Finally the truth comes out. Let the political conspiracy theories run amok.

Sadly, based on the political agenda-type crap that I see so often come through my feeds - this probably isn't a joke. Sad.
 
The Wook said:
...advancing Hollywood's liberal agenda...
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Oh, for pete's sake... really? :facepalm

Why can't a franchise or property be inclusive for the sake of being inclusive?
I suppose "Sesame Street" was some kind of conspiracy, too?
How dare they have blacks and whites and latinos all living together on the same street!
And girls! Blech!

I suppose TFA would have been better if it was a cast of all white males.
Or would you then complain that it's typical "Hollywood whitewashing"?

It infuriates me to no end that we can't include people anymore these days without it becoming about some silly conspiracy theory nonsense.
 
The Wook said:
Oh it is most definitely for its own sake. No offense, Solo, but if you don't think Rey is a vessel for advancing Hollywood's liberal agenda, then you've got blinders on. That film was Girl Power run amok!

The Wook
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Like I said, Rey's abilities and their source are a mystery for the moment. We just finished part 1 of a 3-part story. We'll find out more about her later.

As for the "girl power" thing, you know what? I'm cool with it. I'm gonna have a daughter in about a month and a half, and I rather like the idea of her having someone like Rey to look up to in my favorite film franchise.

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The Wook said:
Oh it is most definitely for its own sake. No offense, Solo, but if you don't think Rey is a vessel for advancing Hollywood's liberal agenda, then you've got blinders on. That film was Girl Power run amok!



I'll tell ya "say's who?"! Yoda! He told us that only a fully trained Jedi can resist being seduced by the dark side.



Remind me, please.

The Wook
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She likely touched upon the Dark Side to defeat Kylo, but that Yoda quote does nothing to advance your contention.

When they have escaped Jakku, Rey and Finn meet in the hallway of the Falcon and Finn says her flying was amazing and Rey replies that she has no idea how she did it. It's IN THE FILM.
 
The Wook said:
I'll tell ya "say's who?"! Yoda! He told us that only a fully trained Jedi can resist being seduced by the dark side.



The Wook
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Then Luke better be full on dark side !
Or Yoda did not know what the hell he is talking about !

Or they could return to the way it all began(in the EU) , the force light and dark balanced in each individual which is what I hope they are going for . because they can't have it both ways . Jedi scum !
 
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