Suicide Squad

[JD]

I agree with you about Jared Leto's Joker being a stupid design visually, they got that utterly wrong. I'm not defending the tattoos and metal teeth. I am defending Jared Leto as an actor though, and I think that his performance and portrayal will be amazing, and COULD end up being the closest to comic accurate we've had so far.

This is where I get lost.

Obviously. comics are a visual medium - a character might have a unique 'voice' in way of how an author makes them speak - but, since there is no audio, we can't actually hear them - we might get speech patterns, some inflections and bold and italic to help highlight - but ultimately, we do not hear them or see them movie. A lot is left for us to fill in the missing pieces.

Movies are just as much a visual medium, but in a totally different way. While writers are usually as important, a lot more of the burden is placed on the director and the actors... the filmmakers interpret the source material and replace parts that were often filled in with our imagination with their own versions. While things like the way an actor might emote or that way they opt to speak might not be spelled out in the book. But, what is clear in the book is the way these characters look - and there must be room to allow for some creative freedom, to adapt to the screen (something on paper just might not work well on the screen)...

The thing with this new Joker - at least based on what I've seen so far - is that he seems to stray too far from the Joker we know. Yes, the Ledger Joker strayed from the source material - but, when he wore the purple get up he looked like the Joker even smudged make-up and scars. To me, these things made this Joker more real and scarier even in the preview material out prior to the movie this look didn't bug me. (Now, I know many will say folks bitched about Ledger being cast... somehow I missed that - it didn't bug me... maybe it was because, well - I thought Batman Begins sucked ).

Maybe they can explain this look in a convincing manner. But, man... I just can't see that happening for me. The Joker is iconic - tattoos and grills just don't seem iconic. I look at how much they've changed that character's design and it feels forced.

It's like they said "what's dark and criminal in 2015?" and just came up with this stereotype: tats and capped teeth and threw in green hair and white skin because they had to.

I'm saving final judgement - but, outside of Harley Quinn (a character that I'm not real familiar with)... and I'll even give it up for Will Smith a bit, too.. this movie just doesn't look all that great to me. (And for crying out loud Jai Courtney!?!? how the heck does he get acting jobs!?!).

 

[cayman shen]

There is no definitive "comic book Joker." There are DECADES of versions that are sometimes wildly different. To say THE comic book version has never been captured on film assumes that there's only ever been one Joker. Which is nonsense.

 

[JD]

There is no definitive "comic book Joker." There are DECADES of versions that are sometimes wildly different. To say THE comic book version has never been captured on film assumes that there's only ever been one Joker. Which is nonsense.

There is no definitive Joker is like saying there is no definitive Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, etc. These are iconic characters that have been a part of our culture for decades... yes, there is room for interpretation in any of them - but, there should also be a respect for the source material - as varied as it might be.

I also don't have a problem to let these characters evolve and change with the times. But, it doesn't feel right or sit well if it feels contrived or forced... and at the moment, this Joker feels that way. Maybe that will change in August, 2016 when this is released.

 

[Athanasius]

There is no definitive "comic book Joker." There are DECADES of versions that are sometimes wildly different. To say THE comic book version has never been captured on film assumes that there's only ever been one Joker. Which is nonsense.

I do see your point, but, well... There really is a definitive Joker in the comics. I mean, obviously there are slight variations - length of hair, different shades of red and green, sometimes different styles of attire, and sometimes certain aspects of his character are exaggerated or downplayed; but he always has the same core, the same essence that makes him the Joker. He is obsessed with comedy and is constantly trying to outdo himself and others with new and bigger "jokes" and everything he does is driven by his sick sense of what is "funny". He has an obsession with Batman. He has purple, orange and green clothing, usually a suit. He has bleached white skin, red lips and bright green hair. He is usually fairly skinny. He uses a range of insane gadgets, all clown themed, and utilises a weaponized "Joker Toxin" which he is immune to. He is volatile and unpredictable, sometimes presenting himself as a harmless prankster and sometimes a ruthless, mass-murdering psychopath. He is very intelligent despite his insanity. He doesn't care about money except as a tool to achieve his goals, and depending on the story (and on how he feels at any given moment), he either wants to rule Gotham, destroy it, or just mess with it. Those elements are present in every Joker story except the non-canon ones, like Nolan's trilogy and one-shot graphic novels. It's a pretty clear and clearly established character and despite 75 years, he actually hasn't changed as much as most people seem to think he has except in alternate universe stories and non-canon appearances.


The Leto version, I feel, will probably be really, really close in terms of personality and that side of things, but the look is just too different from the core of the Joker. Like I said before, there are always slight variations to his look and character depending on the writer and artist, but facial tattoos, extensive body tattoos and metal teeth are not really something I'd consider "slight variations". Honestly, if those things were removed he would actually look PERFECT. And his talent as an actor and his reputation for dedicating himself completely to the roles he plays all point to this being a great version of the Joker, but a part of me will always be distracted by the visual design. I know that's silly and maybe even a little closed-minded, but it's a pretty huge departure from the norm.


Honestly, if Ayer's Suicide Squad movie had've been it's own standalone thing, I would be 100% behind it. But as it's an official tie-in to the other DC movies, it means they're basically presenting this version as the "canon" DC cinematic universe Joker, which bothers me personally.


But after all is said and done, I'm a fan of Leto and Joker is one of my favourite characters of all time, even outside of comics; so either way, regardless of my feelings towards the new design, I'll definitely end up seeing the film, so all that's left is to hope that it turns out awesome.


Also, slightly back on track: I saw a few cosplayers doing the Leto Joker and the Margot Robbie Harley and they nailed it, so that was very cool, and I can't wait to see more cosplayers tackle these costumes!


Also, now that I've looked at it a lot more, I'm loving a few of the other designs. Katana looks sick (and her costume is actually fairly close to the comics so that's awesome), Killer Croc is pretty decent although could have been done a tad better, and Deadshot is awesome and is definitely closest to comic accurate we've seen for that costume so far.


Like all speculative conversation regarding upcoming movies though, we won't know for sure until we see it.

 

[Athanasius]

Also, just to spark further, slightly more specific discussion on the actual film:

What does everyone think about Killer Croc being in Suicide Squad? And what does everyone think about the make-up; is practical make-up better, or could they have pulled it off with CGI or a mix of both?

And also, why does Enchantress look like the girl from The Ring? Is anyone happy with this redesign?

 

[Riceball]

I think that Killer Croc can be done practically just fine, I'm no ludite and I love good CG but most incarnations that I've seen of KC are well within the realm of practical makeup, they just need a big actor and push the prosthetics a bit to enhance his crocodillian appearance. About the only thing that would nee to be CGd would be a tail, if you wanted to go that route, but not the entire character unless you wanted to go more for a bipedal croc look.

 

[Axlotl]

And also, why does Enchantress look like the girl from The Ring? Is anyone happy with this redesign?

Why did they ugly up such a pretty girl? It boggles the mind. No, I don't like it.

 

[Noeland]

I'm always in favor of practical FX. I was surprised when Killer Croc was announced for the film, but I think they did a decent job with his look. I was mostly unfamiliar with The Enchantress, but the change in look did strike me as odd. But didn't they turn her blue for the new 52 or something anyway?

 

[Solo4114]

Why did they ugly up such a pretty girl? It boggles the mind. No, I don't like it.

Because grrrrr gritty grimdark darkness!

 

[Mr Mold Maker]

The makeup for Croc looks pretty good I think.

Whoever thought it was a good idea to hide it under that stupid hoodie should be fired, but ya know... Gotta take the bad with the good I guess.

 

[harrisonp]

Why did they ugly up such a pretty girl? It boggles the mind. No, I don't like it.

Probably to greater differentiate between the Enchantress and June Moone personalities. From the small glimpses of her we've seen, it looks like Cara/June will end up stumbling onto the spirit of Enchantress which will possess her, so they could be playing up the dichotomy.

 

[JLeezy23]

Set photos of a place called Ace Chemicals, some of the sites had the pics pulled but here they are:
http://batman-news.com/2015/07/25/latest-suicide-squad-set-photos-hint-at-joker-origin-story/

The Batman and Bruce Wayne comments at the bottom are sorta funny too

 

[Krull]

Ain't that where the Joker got himself dipped in chemicals?

 

[JLeezy23]

Ain't that where the Joker got himself dipped in chemicals?

Yes indeed! Ace or Axis, depending on which story its from

 

[mattycsi]

Now I'm hoping that the Joker we've seen so far takes a chemical bath and comes out tat free.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

^ That would be world-class misdirect/misinformation on DC's part. I'm hopeful, but their track record lately hasn't given me much confidence in their ability to think that deviously.

--Jonah

 

[Dreddful]

Also, just to spark further, slightly more specific discussion on the actual film:

What does everyone think about Killer Croc being in Suicide Squad? And what does everyone think about the make-up; is practical make-up better, or could they have pulled it off with CGI or a mix of both?

I'm actually relieved they aren't going the CGI route. You don't see too many practical effects anymore which is, IMO, much more interesting and fun to watch.

 

[Riceball]

I'm actually relieved they aren't going the CGI route. You don't see too many practical effects anymore which is, IMO, much more interesting and fun to watch.

To me it depends, I'll take good CG over bad practical any day, but at the same time, I'll take good practical over bad CG any day. To me, it's not one or the other, it's the execution that matters and one is not necessarily better than the other. As I said before, practical and CG both have their place and it depends on the look they're going for; if what they want is a Killer Croc that looks more like human with some reptilian features then practical would be the way to go, if, on the other hand, they want something that's more reptilian but slightly human then CG would be the better way to go.

 

[Athanasius]

I'm actually relieved they aren't going the CGI route. You don't see too many practical effects anymore which is, IMO, much more interesting and fun to watch.

Yeah I definitely agree that practical effects are generally much better, but I've never been a huge fan of the face area of these kinds of make up situations. There's always a limited range of motion, and to me the facial expressions the actors can pull off always reminds me of the old TMNT movies...

So I would have gone with practical effects for the general body and head, and then augmented that with digital effects for the movement of the face, if plausible. I do like the look generally though.

 

[JLeezy23]

The worst CGI is when they get the lighting/coloring wrong, a lot of bad CGI turns out to look grey like the entire thing is colored in a matte tint and just screams Toy Story. But if they can make the old school Godzilla films with practical suits, then Croc can definitely work on screen