Question about ESB MPP Shroud

[Rexermus]

So one thing I've never really been sure about is the origins of the MPP shroud on Vader's ESB hilt. As I understand it's pretty much just thicker and made of steel instead of aluminum without wrinkle paint when compared to the ANH MPP shroud. But in all of my research into vintage MPP's I've only ever seen the ANH shrouds or the 2-step shrouds, so where did the ESB shroud come from? Was it custom made by the props department or have the steel shrouds simply eluded all my searches?

 

[Dewy]

I don’t think the source was ever identified. Nor has anyone found an MPP with a steel shroud as far as I am aware. I’ve seen theories ranging from it being an aftermarket replacement part for MPPs/Heilands/etc. that just wasn’t common, to perhaps very, very early or late production MPPs used steel. The geometry seems too complicated for someone on the production crew to custom machine, but perhaps they were able to do some rudimentary casting process?

 

[Halliwax]

I have a gut feeling the steel shroud is made by MPP

They were being produced during a time where metals are scarce because of the war.

So they most likely switched over.. whether is was aluminum first or steel..

I know every time I say this I have a rebuttal because of how many MPPs have been found in the wild and still no steel shroud..

But there are other props that are in the same exact boat with being massed produced and have a item on it yet to be found/discovered

So when I’m hit with the “but Halliwax there are so many MPPs found and still no steel shroud”

I think of how many other props have this in common..

 

[Rexermus]

I have a gut feeling the steel shroud is made by MPP

They were being produced during a time where metals are scarce because of the war.

So they most likely switched over.. whether is was aluminum first or steel..

I know every time I say this I have a rebuttal because of how many MPPs have been found in the wild and still no steel shroud..

But there are other props that are in the same exact boat with being massed produced and have a item on it yet to be found/discovered

So when I’m hit with the “but Halliwax there are so many MPPs found and still no steel shroud”

I think of how many other props have this in common..

If it was a material swap based on scarcity during the war, that could most likely mean it was produced late into the war no? And if that's the case it would make sense that there are very very very few available because there wouldn't be much reason for MPP to churn out flashes during the war.

So basically there isn't really an option to be able to make an all-vintage part ESB Vader hilt and you'd have to take a large B-port MPP and throw one of Roy's shrouds on it? Unless Dewy's theory of if being an aftermarket shroud ends up being the case. That's kinda disheartening that only ANH MPPs can be all-vintage (as far as we know)

 

[Captain Dunsel]

The studio prop makers followed the 2 rules of production prop making, in creating the original prop:

1. The found item must be rarely found in the wild, in the extreme.

2. The found item must be expensive when found in the wild, in the extreme.

 

[Halliwax]

The studio prop makers followed the 2 rules of production prop making, in creating the original prop:

1. The found item must be rarely found, in the extreme.

2. The found item must be expensive, in the extreme.

This is the way…

 

[James Kenobi 1138]

I have a hot take on this.

Because we actually know that the actual ESB/ROTJ Vader Hero saber survived and is in private hands, and we know who actually owns this saber, have we actually verified that the shroud is steel by asking the owner of the saber to verify using a magnet? Despite never finding ANY steel shrouds are we really just assuming that the prop saber shroud is steel because it has ‘rust’?

Because although aluminum does not rust, it does corrode and aluminum corrosion looks a lot like rust. Seriously. Look it up on the internet.

I think the shroud is just a regular MPP aluminum shroud that has aluminum corrosion and discoloration on the bare metal spots where the paint was rubbed off.

(Also, aluminum can rust if exposed to mercury or mercury vapor)

 

[Captain Dunsel]

I have a hot take on this.

Because we actually know that the actual ESB/ROTJ Vader Hero saber survived and is in private hands, and we know who actually owns this saber, have we actually verified that the shroud is steel by asking the owner of the saber to verify using a magnet? Despite never finding ANY steel shrouds are we really just assuming that the prop saber shroud is steel because it has ‘rust’?

Because although aluminum does not rust, it does corrode and aluminum corrosion looks a lot like rust. Seriously. Look it up on the internet.

I think the shroud is just a regular MPP aluminum shroud that has aluminum corrosion and discoloration on the bare metal spots where the paint was rubbed off.

(Also, aluminum can rust if exposed to mercury or mercury vapor)

Well, it’s not just the rust on the shroud that in the issue …it’s a completely different thickness / design than a standard MPP shroud. To my mind, no aluminum MPP shroud has been found to match the design of the ESB DV Hero.

 

[PoopaPapaPalps]

Because we actually know that the actual ESB/ROTJ Vader Hero saber survived and is in private hands, and we know who actually owns this saber, have we actually verified that the shroud is steel by asking the owner of the saber to verify using a magnet? Despite never finding ANY steel shrouds are we really just assuming that the prop saber shroud is steel because it has ‘rust’?

I second this just for due diligence. As it stands now, as far as I know, no one has bothered reaching out and asking for this simple test to either prove or disprove the shroud being steel. I think the consensus is steel just by the photos alone and nothing more.

 

[Captain Dunsel]

I have a gut feeling the steel shroud is made by MPP

They were being produced during a time where metals are scarce because of the war.

So they most likely switched over.. whether is was aluminum first or steel..

I know every time I say this I have a rebuttal because of how many MPPs have been found in the wild and still no steel shroud..

But there are other props that are in the same exact boat with being massed produced and have a item on it yet to be found/discovered

So when I’m hit with the “but Halliwax there are so many MPPs found and still no steel shroud”

I think of how many other props have this in common..

I like this theory…it could have been part of a very short run of MPPs, during WWII, that happened to fall into the hands of the production.

 

[laszlo]

I have a hot take on this.

Because we actually know that the actual ESB/ROTJ Vader Hero saber survived and is in private hands, and we know who actually owns this saber, have we actually verified that the shroud is steel by asking the owner of the saber to verify using a magnet? Despite never finding ANY steel shrouds are we really just assuming that the prop saber shroud is steel because it has ‘rust’?

Because although aluminum does not rust, it does corrode and aluminum corrosion looks a lot like rust. Seriously. Look it up on the internet.

I think the shroud is just a regular MPP aluminum shroud that has aluminum corrosion and discoloration on the bare metal spots where the paint was rubbed off.

(Also, aluminum can rust if exposed to mercury or mercury vapor)

I totally agree. No way did MPP make these in steel for the market, weight is always a factor and the reflector is aluminum so would be bonkers to make the shroud in a different material. Get a magnet on it!
The microflash was made in the 50’s/ early 60’s not even near the war. I suppose It could have been a one off steel test piece that found its way on to a sold unit - but I doubt it.

 

[Rexermus]

I totally agree. No way did MPP make these in steel for the market, weight is always a factor and the reflector is aluminum so would be bonkers to make the shroud in a different material. Get a magnet on it!
The microflash was made in the 50’s/ early 60’s not even near the war. I suppose It could have been a one off steel test piece that found its way on to a sold unit - but I doubt it.

If it's not steel there would have to be another explanation for the difference in thickness and geometry.
Would be interesting if the props team took a two-step and used modeling clay or some other material to "bulk up" the top step of the shroud to a uniform thickness and then cast it in metal, though I'm not familiar enough with the two-step to say whether the geometry of the two-step and the ESB shroud match. Although that would be a lot more work than just using an unmodified two-step or single step shroud, so that's probably unlikely (even if the rest of the geometry match)

 

[laszlo]

For the record, the Microflash begun production in 1954!

 

[KaanE]

Maybe they had a very damaged MPP shroud and replicated it with a piece of steel they had on hand so it could be ready for production ASAP?

 

[VanPersie]

Could it not be simply that a previous owner broke his original one then had a replacement made?

 

[Captain Dunsel]

Could it not be simply that a previous owner broke his original one then had a replacement made?

That would be a lot of effort to go through vs. just buying another flash.

Prior to Star Wars, camera flashes could be purchased for $10, or even less.

 

[VanPersie]

That would be a lot of effort to go through vs. just buying another flash.

Prior to Star Wars, camera flashes could be purchased for $10, or even less.

May not be that much effort really. Yes that’s in the US but we’re talking the 50’s/60’s in the UK which wasn’t a great time financially for the average working person.

It’s not unusual back then to know people who could knock one up in their shed, or know someone working in a machine shop who could do it in their spare time, or even do it themselves.

Or especially if it was a military issue item, then simply going out and buying one wasn’t quite as simple as going to a shop, and they utilised the skills of the National Servicemen there to make another one in the fabrication workshops.

In the UK especially back then, things were fixed more than simply just replaced. Can’t be any less possible than either MPP made a one off or props department did it.

 

[Captain Dunsel]

One thing that I can say with 100% certainty, based upon the history of the RPF…this topic will absolutely be solved by the members, here; it just takes a bit of time.

 

[VanPersie]

One thing that I can say with 100% certainty, based upon the history of the RPF…this topic will absolutely be solved by the members, here; it just takes a bit of time.

I’m not sure, some things will always be like tears in rain.

 

[Captain Dunsel]

I’m not sure, some things will always be like tears in rain.

Have faith, my friend…

If the members of this board can track down a boot stud as the V2 mystery chunk, I have absolute faith that they can solve “The Mystery of the ESB MPP Shroud”…