Is 3D Printing Being Overused Now?

[Pannaus Props]

YES!!!! Saying a 3D program makes you a great prop maker is like saying a $5000 digital camera makes you a professional photographer.

If you think that even with screen used files people are not able to get good stuff out of them, it makes you understand that is the EYE FOR DETAIL and quest for accuracy that matter here.

Too bad 3D printed stuff right now mean higher prices for items that are some times less accurate than hand-made stuff

 

[TylerHam]

The problem with screen used files - - (I worked at ILM / Dreamworks, etc.. for years)

A majority of small detail in 3D files in in the texture painting - Either painted on, or done with things like displacement maps, etc... which arent actually IN the geometry - they are created in the rendering process (simplified answer)

so yo can get a screen used geometry file, and open it and find that the object representation is there, but the details are missing - because 3D printers cant print "displacement" - they need real sculpted geometry.

Hope that made sense.

(You can get displacement to show up in 3D files as sculpted - but dont ask.. I dont want to go down that road.. haha)

 

[JOATRASH FX]

... but I am really concerned how people are using so heavily as a crutch to produce final products for sale when there are much better and more cost effective methods to produce the final product.

Well to reiterate... several prop runs I've been involved in over the last couple of years have been so niche (1-5 copies) that making molds of a master would have been overkill. Or the nature of the prop made it extremely impractical. The final cost after putting all the extra supplies and work into it would make the thing just as expensive as selling a 1st generation print. In addition, at least one of those runs- my Hellboy Room Key would have been almost impossible to cast even if there were 50 people that wanted one. In part because of the way it was made, but also because it needed the "springy" flexibility and strength of the material it was made out of.

(You can get displacement to show up in 3D files as sculpted - but dont ask.. I dont want to go down that road.. haha)

Smart man, haha! That can of particular worms is best kept closed...

 

[Vampiel]

If I was using a 3D printing service and drop-shipping to customers that would be a whole different animal. A helmet would take me 10 minutes at work to "produce" vs. 30 minutes at home and a trip to the post office. So what if I only make $5 on the helmet? That's $5 more dollars than I'd have otherwise and more importantly, that's a helmet someone else never would have had. If the customer and seller are both satisfied with the cost and product, good for them!

This method is great but unfortunately it seems that some are using it as a replacement for a better product which I believe is what the original complaint was about. While I'm all for this method, for a lot of products you really should have it shipped home first, clean it up, then ship it out (which at that point why not just mold it if the demand is high enough, but some products NEED to be printed because of complexity). Otherwise you get printing lines on it. Which a lot people do.... but many skip the "cleaning it up" part and just have them drop shipped. Mind you some models are just fine without needing to do this. Also the color printing is extremely limited to what materials you can use, although it's not all that fragile and for most things is ok.

However that isn't anything against 3D printing really, it's just substandard products which you'll get with any method.

Hopefully down the road 3D print line issues will fade and the materials will get cheaper so you can model a color product and print it out at high qualities without needing to do anything else to it. This is already possible but the printers capable of it are way out of the reach of the average consumer -- even for a service based printer like Shapeways.

 

[msleeper]

So let's say you're modeling and printing an Iron Man helmet. You think it's less expensive to offer your customers each a printed helmet rather than molding and casting it?

Again, nobody is saying that modeling is lazy, or printing those models is lazy. Printing that model each and every time you sell it? That seems like you're taking the easy way out

It looks as though no matter how many times it is restated here, the gist of the argument is being overlooked and lost.

Kevin, there are totally people saying that modeling is lazy and printing is lazy. In this thread and others. But you're right, that wasn't the issue at hand.

The original subject - that printing parts to sell rather than traditionally molding and casting is less cost effective - may be true in 95% of situations. Some people may be in scenarios where they can print parts at well below consumer cost. But that's just speculation on one possible scenario.

I will agree that selling raw prints seems a little dumb, and definitely is not the cheapest method for the average printer. Outside of something like Shapeways, where I am buying a raw print from a machine that is magnitudes greater outside of what I as a hobbyist could print, I can't imagine personally ever buying a raw 3D printed object.

 

[Tim Allen]

Just wait till printers get cheaper, fast and more detailed. Just like anything the older more manual labored ways will fall by the waist side. It may not happen next year, or in the next five years but I can tell you this is def not a fad. It may look like a fad (in the prop community) but in the coming years its going to be a bigger industry than most expect I believe.

 

[TylerHam]

The future of at home HD prints will be the extrusion type printers... The kind that you see "Pulling" the completed pieces out of a tub of resin - Like the FORM-Z printer... No "nozzle" type printers will ever match that level of potential resolution.

 

[JOATRASH FX]

This method is great but unfortunately it seems that some are using it as a replacement for a better product

That depends on whether or not you know what you are doing when printing. Let's be honest... the greater part of resin casts that are sold here (the one I myself have done) are not really THAT great. There are a few true masters of the art and a LOT of enthusiastic amateurs (to which I count myself among the lower ranks when it comes to casting quality.) If you know your print materials, you can get stellar results that will require no more work than a resin casting. (Why would a seller "clean up" print lines on a 3d print when most don't clean up mold lines or air bubbles from resin?) The REALLY big downside with printing is that most places, like Sh*peways, have a silly policy where they will not print anything that in any way remotely resembles a gun (no matter if it's legal or not) and you have to "disguise" your prints. But for quality- I'm getting a LOT nicer prints than a great number of resin prop castings I've bought over the years (or as mentioned, cast up myself.)

As for materials... that's another topic, but the two I mostly print in (nylon and a clear UV polymer), the former is MUCH stronger than resin (though it does need surface prep with filler primer) and the latter is high resolution enough to print 28mm miniatures with good detail retention...

 

[Jm419]

The future of at home HD prints will be the extrusion type printers... The kind that you see "Pulling" the completed pieces out of a tub of resin - Like the FORM-Z printer... No "nozzle" type printers will ever match that level of potential resolution.

Just to chime in here - the "nozzle" type printers are actually called extrusion printers. They print in extruded plastic; the plastic is "extruded" through an unchanging opening in semi-solid form, like playdough. That's the definition of the word extrusion - when you make playdough spaghetti, you extruded it.

What you're talking about is called "sintering." That process uses light which causes special resin to react, and it creates a two dimensional area of whatever thickness the printer is capable of. Once that layer of resin reacts, the bed lowers, and the process begins again.

Just wanted to clear up the terminology.

 

[TylerHam]

Thanks!!! I honestly couldn't think of those terms at all earlier - Im in Comic Con burnout mode

 

[ultron]

What you're talking about is called "sintering." That process uses light which causes special resin to react, and it creates a two dimensional area of whatever thickness the printer is capable of. Once that layer of resin reacts, the bed lowers, and the process begins again.

Just wanted to clear up the terminology.

I don't think that's quite right. You are describing stereolithography, or SLA. Sintering is a near-melting process. Selective laser sintering, or SLS, is one technique used in 3D printing and locally joins together small granules of nylon or other materials such as titanium. SLA commonly uses photosensitive polymer resins which cure under typically UV light.

 

[watsonstudios]

Here's my 2 cents referring to the first post of this thread. I just printed a minigun replica on my own 3d printer. http://www.therpf.com/f9/3d-printed-minigun-replica-186044/

Now, I'm not making these to sell. This was just a project that has been in the works for over 3 years. I spent many, many hours creating the CAD files for these parts, just as many hours as if someone had carved then by hand. But here's the thing.... There are parts in this gun model that would be almost impossible to cast. Look at the receiver and feeder/delinker housing. These would be nearly impossible to mold because of the complexity and thin walls, undercuts, overhangs, etc. In this case, 3d printing was the best option. Now, I know the topic has gone in all kinds of directions here, in this thread, but the main consideration is: How does the finished product look? Does it show printing lines? (mine does not) Does it look 3d printed? (mine does not, which is a good thing) Was it more efficient to 3d print the entire gun? Yes, plus it is symmetrical and the lines are sharp & clean as if was machined. At least for this type of prop (mechanical, guns, etc) 3d printing is much better in my opinion. More organic stuff? Well that could go either way.

Now.... I probably wouldn't charge any less than 3k for this gun if I had to do it all over again. I know the point of price and efficiency was the main concern. Well, It's all in the buyers hands. If the buyer likes what they see, if the prop looks clean, looks smooth, looks screen or real-life accurate, WHO CARES how much it costs to make. If the prop is dead on perfect, can't tell it from the screen used prop or from the real life object, then it is the buyers choice if they want to spend 3000.00 for it. If they don't. They will look for something less expensive. If they find the same prop for 300.00, that was hand made, molded, cast, etc. but isn't quite as clean or straight or whatever, that is their choice to go for the less expensive version. You really do get what you pay for.

Now, I don't make props for a living so I can't speak from that vantage point so efficiency is not my priority, but quality and the satisfaction that I did the best job I could, is.

So....it doesn't matter how much someone is charging for their prop. If it's too high, get it somewhere else. If it's too high because the overhead was too high, well..... Is it worth it? Does it fulfill your expectations? If it's mediocre, look somewhere else. If there is nothing out there that even comes close to it in detail or accuracy, then I guess the buyer has to choose how much they are willing to spend. For example, there are 2 similar props in quality, one 3d printed, one cast. If 3d printed version is more expensive, the buyer will chose the less expensive cast version of course. The seller of the 3d printed version will lose the sale and learn their lesson. Maybe find a more efficient way to approach it next time.

I think it's ridiculous to put down 3d printing! Sure, there is crap out there, badly finished 3d prints with print lines, whatever! But there is also the same lack of quality with some of the traditional prop makers out there as well, crappy molds, crappy finishing, etc.

No matter how a prop is made, The price should match the quality of the finished product no matter how it was created because I guarantee you, if it looks phenomenal, then there was a LOT of work put into it - not just "save, print" !

 

[Pannaus Props]

No matter how a prop is made, The price should match the quality of the finished product no matter how it was created because I guarantee you, if it looks phenomenal, then there was a LOT of work put into it - not just "save, print" !

You just need to be lucky and reach people who actually see the quality of your stuff.
But I can assure you that most of us are battling the 3D printing phenom ending up losing

It's all about what buyers see as "COOL" and awesome. And a 3D printed prop right now gets a lot more recognition and will-to -spend-money than a classic prop.

Trust me I've experienced it with my own stuff

 

[Jm419]

I don't think that's quite right. You are describing stereolithography, or SLA. Sintering is a near-melting process. Selective laser sintering, or SLS, is one technique used in 3D printing and locally joins together small granules of nylon or other materials such as titanium. SLA commonly uses photosensitive polymer resins which cure under typically UV light.

You're right. Midnight typing, lol. It is stereolithography when it applies to resins; I just made a mistake.

 

[TLaser]

It's a great tool with nowhere near it's full potential yet realized but that being said, it is not the last word in creativity. Sure it will replace a lot of thing rapidly in the near future but there will always be the art of hand working an item. I am in the sign and design industry and started with hand lettering and painting, now it is considered old school and has been replaced for the most part with digital printing after it was replaced with cut vinyl lettering. Thing will progress even beyond the current 3D technology that's just our nature so lets pass on to those who will learn the old ways but embrace the new stuff as tools also. I for one can still do it by hand when needed but we use current technology as well ( probably more than 98% of the work we do ). Me, I'm just waiting for the next gen where you can print yourself a hottie for the night and melt her down before the wife gets home!

 

[sciroccojunky]

Stargate universe props were done with 3d printing quite a bit. Coupled with milling, CNC and laser etching. All makes for some sweet gear. My kino shows the lines from being printed out. The star wheel on the control pieces also show 3d printing banding. With today's technology and whatnot begs for more and more complex props. HD also makes details and previous methods of making props more difficult. I'm sure most new scifi movies exclusively use 3d printing. but for making copies and runs, no amount of 3d printing will make that cheaper. Shapeways stuff for even small stuff isn't cost effective for copies. Better to make a mold and do them that way. Much more economical. plus, you'll need to clean up prints anyway to cover up the banding. 3d printing is pretty spendy for even the smallest of pieces.

 

[sportzjunky]

Seems like a waste unless you are doing one offs. To do runs in 3D would get too expensive as photoinitiator cartridges are huge $ for the content weight and to scale that into parts would be inefficient vs a mold under almost all cases(plastic, fiberglass, hard rubber, etc). Exceptions? probably, but not the norm.

 

[curlyhairedboy]

i think part of the appeal in prop and model-making is the idea that you're getting something handmade or hand-finished. something uniquely weathered....something the opposite of mass-produced.

Even if you're getting a kit, you're putting it together yourself, painting/weathering it yourself, and making it personal. at this stage, 3D printing is no threat to that. It won't be for a long, long time. But when we do reach the stage where you can pull a fully-painted/textured/weathered/polished prop from a tub of resin - and it's identical to the 900 made before it - then that magical element of personalization/uniqueness has been lost....

when we reach that stage, i'll be going back to sanding and styrene. i care about something a lot more when i've got a personal stake in it.

 

[watsonstudios]

i think part of the appeal in prop and model-making is the idea that you're getting something handmade or hand-finished. something uniquely weathered....something the opposite of mass-produced.

I agree if you are making them for yourself. I have a ton of work in my minigun and it gives me a huge sense of accomplishment and I'd never sell it for that reason. I could never get the monetary equivalent of the time I've put into it.

On the other hand. When selling to the general public that just wants a cool, accurate prop from a movie or whatever. They still don't care how it was made. They only see the final result and they either want it or they don't. It's like music. Only musicians will ever understand the work and finesse that goes into a recording or performance and really have an appreciation of it. But the general public "consumer", just wants what's sounds good to them. They don't think of or appreciate all the work that goes into it in the end.

That is why, we as artists, appreciate what we do and get the satisfaction of making it ourselves. Even with 3d printing, there is a lot of finesse and finishing details that require time & talent to execute so in the end, 3d printing takes nothing away from us as artists. Someone still has to create the 3d models to begin with, that in itself is an art. Using a computer or hand sculpting, doesn't matter. It takes skill and an eye for detail either way and we can still be proud of what we make no matter what tools we use. There's no shame in using 3d printing.

 

[curlyhairedboy]

I agree if you are making them for yourself. I have a ton of work in my minigun and it gives me a huge sense of accomplishment and I'd never sell it for that reason. I could never get the monetary equivalent of the time I've put into it.

On the other hand. When selling to the general public that just wants a cool, accurate prop from a movie or whatever. They still don't care how it was made. They only see the final result and they either want it or they don't. It's like music. Only musicians will ever understand the work and finesse that goes into a recording or performance and really have an appreciation of it. But the general public "consumer", just wants what's sounds good to them. They don't think of or appreciate all the work that goes into it in the end.

That is why, we as artists, appreciate what we do and get the satisfaction of making it ourselves. Even with 3d printing, there is a lot of finesse and finishing details that require time & talent to execute so in the end, 3d printing takes nothing away from us as artists. Someone still has to create the 3d models to begin with, that in itself is an art. Using a computer or hand sculpting, doesn't matter. It takes skill and an eye for detail either way and we can still be proud of what we make no matter what tools we use. There's no shame in using 3d printing.

yeah. that's why to me, prop/modelmaking is a personal-scale enterprise. it's putting yourself closer to the fabrication process, not just getting something mass-produced on an assembly line along with thousands of other identical models.