The one scenario where I can see Varys supporting any kind of major upheaval is if he believed that the realm required the strength of the Targaryens AND their dragons, and therefore would support Illyrio giving Daeny the dragon eggs, on the assumption that they'd eventually hatch in her presence and come to power again. Why he would believe this would be best for the realm, though, I'm not entirely sure. Maybe he knows of the threat in the North posed by the Others and believes only the dragons can stop them.
Arya never overheard Varys and Tyrion. She overheard Varys when she was hiding in the dungeon by the dragon skulls but the person he was talking to was FAR too tall to be Tyrion.
She overheard Varys and Illyrio. It was a poorly written run on sentence I was talking about other comments Varys made to Tyrion in later episodes. Should have parsed that into a new sentence
as for the good of the realm stuff, I'm not convinced yet. Varys is still on my not to be trusted list like there is some other ulterior motive
What an...odd episode. The show seemed to change the tone of the scene between Jamie and Cersei. I'll have to re-read it, but I don't recall it being quite so...icky. They still havent figured out Stannis' character either. While he's supposed to be stern and straight forward, to me he's not nearly as unlikeable in the books. Also, I guess I never really noticed how "un-subtle" TV really is. Oberyn's sexuality is mentioned in the books, but only really in passing. Here, they're really just smacking the viewer over the head with it. A shame since he's so much more than that. Hopefully we'll see it soon.
Love the Tyrion scene, and Charles Dance is just so awesome at Tywin. He never disappoints. Loved how they are really ramping up just how dangerous the wildlings are. Some serious build up for the eventual battle. I thought the ending with Dany was pretty strong, too. Something about when she speaks High Valyrian just does it for me.
Yeah, I don't recall Jamie practically raping Cersei next to their son's corpse. That was an odd narrative choice to go with. Agree with the un-subtle thing, they've managed to outdo the Renly un-subtleness. They cut out the somewhat creepy vibe Dontos had with Sansa (and most of his involvement in the plot) which actually had some plot relevance as it spoke to Dontos' motives and state of mind to instead give us another scene beating viewers over the head regarding Oberyn being bi.
What an...odd episode. The show seemed to change the tone of the scene between Jamie and Cersei. I'll have to re-read it, but I don't recall it being quite so...icky. They still havent figured out Stannis' character either. While he's supposed to be stern and straight forward, to me he's not nearly as unlikeable in the books. Also, I guess I never really noticed how "un-subtle" TV really is. Oberyn's sexuality is mentioned in the books, but only really in passing. Here, they're really just smacking the viewer over the head with it. A shame since he's so much more than that. Hopefully we'll see it soon.
Love the Tyrion scene, and Charles Dance is just so awesome at Tywin. He never disappoints. Loved how they are really ramping up just how dangerous the wildlings are. Some serious build up for the eventual battle. I thought the ending with Dany was pretty strong, too. Something about when she speaks High Valyrian just does it for me.
Yeah, I don't recall Jamie practically raping Cersei next to their son's corpse. That was an odd narrative choice to go with. Agree with the un-subtle thing, they've managed to outdo the Renly un-subtleness. They cut out the somewhat creepy vibe Dontos had with Sansa (and most of his involvement in the plot) which actually had some plot relevance as it spoke to Dontos' motives and state of mind to instead give us another scene beating viewers over the head regarding Oberyn being bi.
Spoilerized for those who are watching and haven't read the books.
The scene in the book is different because it's their first sight of each other since Jamie returned. Jamie and Brienne get back after the wedding, which is why Brienne has no idea where Sansa's gone and searches for her in Book 4. The scene between Jamie and Cersei is far more mutual and out of just this explosion of tension and passion. It's in Book 4 that they really start to pull apart from each other after Cersei is basically running the kingdom (or trying to...) and is drinking a LOT more heavily. It's at that point that Jamie's character really makes a sharp turn towards wanting to be more honorable and noble, kinda like Brienne's attitudes.
I think they're trying to make the change towards Jamie and Cersei being sick of each other a bit more of a longer lead-in, since it'll also explain Jamie helping Tyrion escape.
As for Oberyn Martell, my recollection is that he plays far less of a role in Book 3's second half than he is currently on TV. He's there, but he's not a POV character, and interactions with him are more sparse because the other POV characters aren't dealing with him as much. for example, the scene between him and Tywin could well have happened, but it happened "off screen" for the books because Tyrion (the POV character) is locked up at that point. The only way the reader would see it is if Jamie (who's a POV character in Book 3) is with Tywin when he makes the deal.
I think they want you to get a better sense of Martell so that you like him for his charm, but it's clear they want to provide a bit of titillation, too. Kinda the same deal with the wildlings and their brutality. Our previous glimpse of the wildlings was more just as, like "noble savages." In the books, they're more emphasizing the "noble" part. In the show, I think it works to emphasize the "savage" part.
What I'm curious about are some other deviations from the text and how they'll play out down the road. Again, spoilers for those not reading the books.
I'm particularly curious about what it means if Gilly is out of the picture, or whether she'll be driven back to Castle Black as the wildling raiding force pushes towards the castle from behind the wall. Without her, Sam's portion in Book 4 becomes a lot less meaningful.
I'm particularly curious about what it means if Gilly is out of the picture, or whether she'll be driven back to Castle Black as the wildling raiding force pushes towards the castle from behind the wall. Without her, Sam's portion in Book 4 becomes a lot less meaningful.
I was alittle surprized at Cercei's rape by Jaimie also. I don't remember that happening in the books, but I can see where they want to emphasize that while Jaimie has become somewhat transformed by losing his hand and swordsmanship, he has not done a complete 180 and has some way to evolve into being a better person. I also can see a point in it showing that he has never frequented prostitutes or had sex with people below his status, and it is becoming increasingly frustrating for him to release those sexual aggressions that he maybe used to do by his fighting skills. Thus, this rare opportunity at being completely alone with Cercei without others watching and his intense emotional state could erupt in something like this.
The whole graphic Oberyn/Ellaria Sand sex scenario on the other hand, did seem a bit pandering to me: too obvious, I think.
Rape drastically changes BOTH parties involved; their relationship is just utterly changed here. Jaime's story arc is on the upswing; reclaiming his honor, etc. This was just... argh.
I was alittle surprized at Cercei's rape by Jaimie also. I don't remember that happening in the books, but I can see where they want to emphasize that while Jaimie has become somewhat transformed by losing his hand and swordsmanship, he has not done a complete 180 and has some way to evolve into being a better person. I also can see a point in it showing that he has never frequented prostitutes or had sex with people below his status, and it is becoming increasingly frustrating for him to release those sexual aggressions that he maybe used to do by his fighting skills. Thus, this rare opportunity at being completely alone with Cercei without others watching and his intense emotional state could erupt in something like this.
Yeah, but I also think they're going somewhere with this.
Jaime really doesn't show up in King's Landing until a little bit after the wedding and, as I recall, doesn't do a ton other than send Brienne on her way with a note to help her and Oathkeeper. Meanwhile, Cersei is cold and distant to him, and Jaime has given up, basically, everything in his life just to be near her. In the book, it plays out way differently because it's just this incredible outpouring of intense feelings on both sides, but they made it basically straight-up rape in the show.
My theory is that they're going to use this scene as a kind of shorthand to do two things that they can't do as easily without Jaime's internal monologue from his POV chapters.
1. They'll use this to spur his sense of shame even further, to help illustrate how he chooses to turn his life around and regret his past actions. Much of that happens in Book 4, but so much of it is internal. Plus, given the space between seasons, we may need to reiterate our hate for Jaime if we're going to appreciate any sense of redemption he attains down the road. For all we know, he may go "medieval" on a rapist he catches in some created-for-TV scene in season, oh, 6 or so as he's riding around headed to Riverrun. But basically, I think Jaime's been fairly sympathetic for the last two seasons, and they needed to remind the viewer in very quick terms that still fit within the narrative that, at this point, he is NOT a good man yet, and has a long way to go towards redemption.
2. I think they're short-circuiting a lot of the emotional distance that falls between Jaime and Cersei in Book 4, while simultaneously making EACH character a lot more "grey" than "black or white." Cersei in Book 4 -- which I'm currently reading -- is....awful, basically. She's petulant, a terrible ruler, cruel to Jaime, dismissive of him, etc., and Jaime basically hasn't done anything. She's not sympathetic at all, really. I get why she does what she does, but I really, really dislike her. Whereas, the show has done a halfway decent job of making her fairly sympathetic at times, even as she's also crazy and awful. I think this scene could end up being used to show that her distancing herself from Jaime began partially out of her petulance (e.g, "You took TOO LONG."), but also out of her own legitimate anger towards him. Likewise Jaime's devotion to her seems misguided but also chivalric, which makes his behavior towards her before leaving for Riverrun all the more pathetic. I think they're doing this to showcase that Jaime probably will want to redeem himself so that some of the behavior where he tries to help her and support her isn't just out of his own desire to be with her (as it is in the books), but also to make his behavior an attempt at redemption that he feels he NEEDS to do.
Anyway, we'll see. I hope they do something with it for real, because if it's just for shock value, then that sucks. The Martell scene I can handle for shock value, much as I can with the wildling scene. But you shouldn't use rape solely for shock value. If it's used at all, it should be used for a reason, not just creating a watercooler moment.
Some pretty good points in that article (nothing that has not been covered by the timeline in the TV show for those who might be worried about spoilers)
I thought it was an odd derailing of Jamie's character change at this point.
Solo4114, those are some excellent points about the shows’ need to emphasize and clearly set up the fact that Jaimie has more internal turmoil to compel him toward some sort of redemption.
I also think that, (if I recall from the books), that Cercei’s real repulsion of Jamie’s disfigurement/loss of his hand is the main reason she rejects him. She always idealized him and thought of him as perfect, and now he is mangled and handicapped which reminds her of Tyrion, who she loathes for those same reasons also.
I think it's slightly more than that, they mention occasionally how much Cersei and Jamie resemble each other (to the point that in childhood the only way to distinguish them was Cersei was the one dressed as a girl). To some extent Cersei's sexual interest in Jamie is narcissistic and mastubatory, so seeing the man she considers to a degree a physical reflection of herself maimed is uncomfortable on top of her being aware of her aging body and the toll birthing three children took. Not to the same degree as loathing Jamie's handicap, but I believe it to be a contributing factor.
The Oberyn stuff was super subtle in the book, but he also came to King's Landing in lieu of his brother to take the seat on the small council from the get go. There may be an example slipping my mind, but I don't recall a specific sexploitation scene so far in the show that didn't further the plot in a way that the sex actually had some plot relevance until now. I'll grant them one whorehouse scene to establish Oberyn's sexuality, but the second trip is unnecessary as all the plot development happens irrespective of the sexy fun times. Establishing Renly's sexuality had plot relevance, it spoke to Loras' motivations coming from love and later revenge after Renly's death. It allowed for the marriage to Margaery to be unconsummated so that she could marry Joffrey. It made Brienne a more tragic figure, being in love with her king that she could never have because she had the wrong parts and was naive to that fact. Oberyn's sexuality adds character, but doesn't further the plot. Well, the Sand Snakes, but that's irrespective of the male buggery.
As I mentioned before I find it odd that they'd spend so much time shoving the audience's face in Oberyn's sexuality which really has no bearing on the plot, but they excise most of the Dontos arc. I'd have liked to see him talking to Sansa through season 3 to set up the escape, and his references to Florian and Jonquil. Those served to establish his view of Sansa after she saved his life, his desire to be more than a fool again, give them a bit more of a common connection since those were favorite songs of Sansa's, and add another example for Sansa attracting unwanted attention from older men (looking at you edited Hound scene).
I like the change to Cersei and Jamie's interactions even less than Shae's. I get that they're trying to make Shae more sympathetic for when she betrays Tyrion, but I'd rather see it kept in line with the book. Have the audience deal with her just being a ***** instead of genuinely in love with Tyrion. The woman scorned thing is played out, much more interesting for Tyrion to have let his guard down and utterly hoodwinked I think. But the Cersei and Jamie thing just sets back his redemption arc. He's already the Kingslayer, he's already responsible for crippling Bron, he's already responsible for fathering three abominations. Making him a rapist was unnecessary. I get where they could be going with it, but I don't agree with it and I think making him a rapist will completely destroy some viewers' sympathy for him. I'm not going to feel so bad about Brienne leading him to Lady Stoneheart now as I do with non-rapist book Jamie.
Edit: Not going to bother fixing it, but annoyed that I misspelled "Jaime" in there a lot.
All that is accurate, but bringing that into the show, I think, is difficult for several reasons.
First, logistically, Jaime doesn't return to King's Landing until late in Book 3, and doesn't play a huge role in the events at King's Landing during that time. This is all well and good in the books, while we're busy focusing on other POV characters and jumping to other locations (I seem to recall Tyrion being the main POV at King's Landing in Book 3), but on TV it wouldn't make sense to have Jaime just disappear for the bulk of the season. So, they brought him back to King's Landing sooner than that, for TV scheduling purposes and to keep him visible in the show.
Second, Cersei's loathing of Tyrion doesn't reach it's absolute peak until the very tail end of Book 3 and through Book 4. We're JUST starting to see it rise from her usual hatred of him to this intense, almost manic desire for vengeance for her son and all the wrongs she perceives Tyrion to have visited upon her. It doesn't reach it's peak until probably the end of this season. So, while it would kinda make sense to have her spurn Jaime based on his physical deformity, the intensity of her revulsion wouldn't make as much sense. Sure, she's hated Tyrion, but I think viewers would find it difficult to accept that she hates Jaime to quite that degree merely because his lost hand reminds her of Tyrion somehow.
I think it'd make way more sense after the end of the season, when Tyrion nearly escapes his trial, and then DOES escape, killing Tywin and revealing Tywin's own lasciviousness in the process, which only makes Cersei redirect whatever disgust and frustrations she felt towards Tywin back at Tyrion. At THAT point, it makes sense that Jaime's physical reminders of Tyrion would make her want to push him far away, coupled with his refusal to be Hand of the King when she asks him to after Kevan turns it down. There's just a ton of stuff that I think would have to happen for audiences to accept it if Cersei said "I can't look at you. you remind me too much of Tyrion" at this point.
I think these pressures have (hopefully) forced the showrunners to try to create reasons for Jaime and Cersei's falling out that will complicate their characters and maintain the "shades of grey" approach that the show takes, rather than keeping them "black and white," as it could come across. I mean, the AV Club article called Jaime a hero for god's sake, which he definitely is NOT. I mean, let's forget that he murdered his own cousin to escape captivity, and crippled a child to hide his deeds with Cersei. He is a bad, bad man, and the fact that he's become somewhat more sympathetic doesn't erase that. I think, however, the AV Club article highlights how the show has worked, and how charismatic and nuanced Nicolaj Coster-Waldau's performance has been, to the point where people really LIKE Jaime now. I think, in a way, that's leading them to "course correct" Jaime's character.
I also don't think it's ENTIRELY out of character, given what's happened. I'll try to explain.
First, I think we have to kind of divorce ourselves from the version of Jaime we see in the novels from the one we see on TV. Jaime's way more sympathetic and charismatic on TV. I think he's portrayed as far more caring, too, although he hides that side of himself well. Second, Jaime was present AT the wedding, lost his hand, and has started being isolated by Cersei before the events of this episode. He's also undergone a RADICAL identity change and is now facing the reality of that: he's a swordsman with no sword hand. He cannot fight, and fighting is -- or has been -- his life. He's helpless and miserable as a result. The impact of this is that Jaime is emotionally incredibly raw at the moment in the sept. He's at his wits' end, he's watched his son die, he's remained forever faithful and devoted to Cersei, done TERRIBLE things for her and to get back to her, and she's been cold and distant towards him. And...he loses it. Moreover, probably in his mind, she's never REALLY wanted him to "stop" before, so why should this time count?
Mind you, I'm not apologizing for him. More trying to explain what I see as Jaime's motivations in the act. It's a horrible act, no question, even if Cersei is a distasteful even loathsome woman. But I don't think it pops up out of nowhere the way a lot of long-time readers view it. Within the reality of the show, I think it makes sense.
From Cersei's end, she, too, is emotionally raw. The man she loved is now a cripple, unable to defend her or her children. She constantly feels threatened in King's Landing, and has navigated extremely difficult relationships with ALL the men in her family, with the possible exception of Tommen. Yet MINUTES prior, she watched Tywin begin to dig his claws into Tommen, influencing him and walking him out of the sept -- and away from her, and all while she's mourning her dead son. Her dead son whom, I should add, was just badmouthed by his own grandfather as a bad king. Watch Lena Headey's acting as Tywin leaves with Tommen. It's a BRILLIANT piece of physical acting. And then in waltzes Jaime, wanting some action. Unlike in the books, she's had a chance to feel happy that he's returned, while also feeling disgusted by his hand. She's emotionally raw, and in the same instant that she clings to him (and she does, briefly at least -- again, watch the acting in that scene), she's also pushing him away in disgust with him and her self, I suspect. And once again, Cersei is rendered powerless by virtue of being a woman. Something she's struggled with her entire life, and always hated. Belittled by her father, surrounded by unworthy men, forced to be their pawn, Cersei is once again put in a position of powerlessness -- arguably the ULTIMATE position of powerlessness for a woman in this world. She is made a victim, by her own brother, a man who claims to love her. Actually, this is her second victimization at the hands of a brother, in her mind at least. Tyrion murdered her son, so she thinks. I suspect that all of this is going to help build her character moving forward, towards what readers know is coming in the events of Book 4 with her. All of it will help to explain her role and interactions with pretty much everyone else moving forward.
In other words, I think -- I HOPE -- that all of this is a big ol' windup for a big ol' pitch for these two characters, rather than a simple pandering attempt at shocking the audience.
I was talking about other comments Varys made to Tyrion in later episodes. Should have parsed that into a new sentence
