Defiance
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CB2001
Master Member
I agree. After hearing about the cancellation, I went to Amazon and purchased both the Season 1/Video Game deluxe score on CD and also the Season 2's Songs of Defiance CD. I will definitely be purchasing Season 3 when it comes out.
I hope that Kevin Murphy and them continue the story in some way other than the game. I mean, there is the possibility of them doing it as a comic series (much like how Rockne S. O'Bannon and several writers of Farscape did, the storyline picking up right at the end of the mini-series).
Riceball
Master Member
I'm curious about the cancellation of Defiance, did SyFy do their usual and promise them a S4 and cancel them at the last minute, or did they go into this season (at least halfway) knowing that this would be the last? As far as ratings go, while they may have been getting good ratings this last season but were they as good as the last two, slipping ratings is often a reason for cancellation and SyFy has never been known for being very supportive of their scripted shows in the past, so why would that change now?
NormanF
Master Member
I wondered if it was coming back given how the last episode ended. Netflix can't save all the cancelled shows, but I would like to see it show up there at least for one "wrap up all the stories" season. Falling Skies was rushed, especially at the end, but at least they saw the cancellation coming and were able to finish the story.
Riceball
Master Member
I've always felt that the show runners for any scripted show on SyFy should have a solid plan in place for how their show will end and plan it all out for 4 seasons with an out in case they surpass expectations and get a 5th season. But I wouldn't bother planning out further out than out than since no scripted show on SyFy has gone beyond 5 seasons; SG-1 doesn't count because its first 5 seasons was on Showtime.
Cephus
Master Member
But most show runners, and this isn't just Syfy, but they never plan out farther than the first season, they have no idea what they'll do if they get renewed, which is why so many shows completely fall apart in season two and beyond. I wish networks would refuse to give any show any attention unless the creator can show an outline for the series for at least 5 seasons.
Riceball
Master Member
That would be nice, esp. for shows that have a very serialized plot like Lost, The Last Ship, Blindspot, where there's an obvious end to the show like getting off the island, finding the cure, the meaning of the tattoos and memory loss, but too often the show runners/creator doesn't work that out in advance or at least how to keep the show going without it feeling like they don't know where they're going of how they're going to eventually end the show. Of course, it would also be nice if the networks would cooperate some in giving show runners plenty of advance notice that they're going to be canceled or are at least on the bubble so they can start writing towards their end game, assuming that they actually have one. That's why a lot of SyFy's shows always seem to have this rushed or unsatisfactory ending, they don't tell the show runners until the last minute when they've written, cast, and are in pre-production for all but the last few episodes of what turns out to be their last season, and that's if they don't pull a Farscape and SG-1 and you're already pretty much all done for the season and then they tell you that you've been canceled.
CB2001
Master Member
From what I heard, The Wire was pre-plotted out by the series' creator. Every episode of its five season was plotted out long before the series was pitched to HBO, from what I've heard. Babylon 5 was also pre-plotted, but it was designed to be flexible with the story to allow characters and storylines to be changed depending on the circumstances with the production (for example, the change of the series lead from Michael O'Hare to Bruce Boxlietner lead to major changes in the story, primarily due to O'Hare's condition. Had he not had the condition, what would have happened is that the Babylon 5 station would have been destroyed, and the Babylon 4 station would have been taken forward to "present" time, and the series from that point on would have been called Babylon Prime. But due to O'Hare's condition, Straczynski allowed him to bow out after the first season, using an exit he designed for that character to allow for O'Hare to leave, and ended up changing the events of what was to happen for Babylon 4, taking it from having it go to the future to going into the past, and having the Sinclair character become Valen. The series creator, J. Michael Straczynski, talked about how he designed easy "exits" for each character, in case if the actor chose to leave the show).
But I guess the primary reason why most show runners never pre-plot their seasons is because they want more flexibility with the storyline (I think for Defiance, it was the case as there was originally another version of the ending of Season 1 that was meant to take place a year after Irisa disappeared and the E-Rep took over, showing Amanda running the NeedWant, Irisa coming back to Defiance, and Nolan in E-Rep prison next to Datak, but Kevin Murphy decided not to use that ending because he didn't want to lock in a promise of what that was going to be for the following season, as he wasn't sure if that was the route he wanted to take). Plus, the added plausibility that SyFy could have cancelled the show any season was probably on his mind to (he probably picked that up from Rockne S' O'Bannon, as he created Farscape for the channel, only for it to be cancelled just as Season 4 was finishing its filming), and let's face it, even a writer knows how sucky it is to leave your audience hanging.
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I think the final episode is well made and a proper send-off.
Cephus
Master Member
But you have to remember that the networks don't care about the shows. The shows exist to facilitate advertising. If the show isn't attracting viewers, it isn't attracting high value advertising and the networks just want it to be gone so they can try something else. That's how television works. That's why shows that aren't immediately popular get cut after a couple of episodes. This isn't some slight to the fans, this is business. A finished show is a failed show. It's no longer producing ad revenue. But I think where the show runners can make their shows more successful is, as I said, planning their show farther out than the first season. What kills an ongoing series faster than almost anything, except just being a bad show, is being a series that meanders with no overall purpose. I think Defiance was clearly one of those shows.
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Not really, they pretty much knew they were getting cancelled and wrapped most of is up, leaving a couple of threads just in case.
Riceball
Master Member
I understand and agree, but that doesn't mean that the networks can't be a little more accommodating to shows and their producers; you have to admit that SyFy is notorious for promising shows one more season only to pull the rug out from underneath them at the last minute although they have gotten somewhat better over the years. Then there's Fox and their unrealistic expectations from their new shows, if you don't knock it out of the ball park (ratings wise) within the first few episodes then it's gone.
Cephus
Master Member
But accommodating shows isn't what they are in business to do, they are in business to make money by selling advertising and shows exist only as a vehicle for doing so. They all have their individual business models. Syfy seems to be modeled around syndication, they want enough episodes to get them syndicated, that's why virtually no scripted shows ever last more than 5 seasons, that's all they need. Fox, they're looking for immediate success, but to their credit, they've given shows a shot that would never have gotten on the air anywhere else. They don't want to waste time (and lost revenue) on shows that just limp along. Both of them have a right to do whatever they want to do with their own channels. I'm sure we'd run things differently but we're not running things. They're the ones with their financial butts on the line, they can do as they wish and are either successful or unsuccessful at it. We, as viewers, can choose to watch or not to watch. That's all we can do.
Riceball
Master Member
That may be true but giving a show's producers a little advance notice before cancelling them doesn't cost them anything. Like I said previously, though they've gotten better, they do have a reputation and record for stringing shows along by promising them one more season before telling them after production has wrapped for the season or by the time the last episodes are already in pre-production. That has nothing to do with a business model, that's just being plain rude and being jerks, it's one thing if they're not sure and want to wait until the final ratings for the season are in before deciding to renew or not but telling a show that they're good for another season and then pulling the rug out from underneath them is something else entirely.
As for Fox, I agree that credit is due to them for airing shows that would otherwise have no chance but expecting them to get X-Files or Simpsons numbers after only a few episodes is pretty unrealistic, especially in this day and age of streaming and DVRs. Neither of those shows were mega hits right off the bat and it took them both a while to work to the level of success and ratings that they had/have and it's hardly realistic to expect a show to hit those kinds of numbers right off the bat. Unless the ratings numbers are completely abysmal the realistic thing should be to give them about a half a season's worth of episodes, if their numbers aren't showing a steady climb after that, then it's time to give them the axe, not before they've had a chance to find their audience.
firesprite
Master Member
The old models of television production, much like publishing, are rapidly changing thanks to online outlets. The rise of streaming services like Netflix, Hulu, and others is causing a fundamental shift in the way that television and movies are being viewed and the continued over-reliance on ratings as a measure of a show's popularity is hampering a lot of networks and alienating (ha, alienating in a thread about a show about aliens) many viewers. The networks need to start waking up to the fact that the old models don't apply so much any more and they need to develop new measures of success or failure for their programming.
Cephus
Master Member
But the networks often don't know until after the season has aired whether they're going to renew or not. Most shows don't get a season or a partial season to wrap things up, series like Continuum and Fringe are the exceptions, not the rules. I'm sure they inform the show producers when they make the decisions, it makes no sense to keep it from them and I don't think they're purposely being dicks about it.
As for Fox, as I said, it's entirely up to them to have whatever expectations they want, realistic or no, for whatever reasons they feel like deciding it. It's their network, they're the ones taking all of the financial risks, they get to do what they want to do. If you want to make those decisions, by all means, become head of Fox Television. Otherwise, while you're entirely entitled to your opinions, they really mean very little.
Cephus
Master Member
Oh, I agree and media companies have always been very slow to change. Record companies were notoriously opposed to services like iTunes and had to be dragged into the modern age kicking and screaming and television is no different. However, things like Netflix and Hulu and other similar services can be measured and so long as on-air advertising is the metric for making money, things are not going to change, even if the viewing public has. Television is still, and probably always will be a money-making game, the networks have to get paid to keep making shows and paying all of their costs, so as long as that's the case, nothing is going to change and either the network system will fall, which is entirely possible, or we'll be stuck with people paying attention to on-air views and Nielsen ratings and the like. They're not going to change just because you want them to change, they'll only change when it becomes financially superior for them to do so.
CB2001
Master Member
I'm still playing the game, and rewatching the show every once in a while. As crazy as it sounds, I want to make some machinima using the game, but due to the game's limitations, it doesn't make it easy to do it. I've "pitched" the idea over on the suggestions subform of the main forums, and there's a few people at the forum that like the idea, but it's hard to say if the developers will do it (I've asked them in a live Twitch, they said that they didn't have any plans for including machinima tools, but they think it's an awesome idea).
However, I do have a little bit of an update on my end. Due to the lack of a playable Indogene race in the game, I was to commission a Sims 3 content creator to make some Indogene genetics (including the skin and eyes). So, as a result I've finally got to make a representation of Chase Lonehart's girlfriend, Iri Sewuel (pronounced "Airy Say-well").
I know there's a chance that the MMO is dying, but I feel that if they open it up to allow for machinima to be made, it'd give the users a sense that they're a part of the story and gives them a bit of authorship in how it plays out (now that the show's gone and they're waiting for more content from Trion). I mean, look at what Red vs. Blue did for Halo (in fact, fans of Halo who have watched the series actually feel that the story in the series is better than the actual game's story, and some of them wish that Halo would adopt RvB's story). But that's just my opinion.
However, I do have a little bit of an update on my end. Due to the lack of a playable Indogene race in the game, I was to commission a Sims 3 content creator to make some Indogene genetics (including the skin and eyes). So, as a result I've finally got to make a representation of Chase Lonehart's girlfriend, Iri Sewuel (pronounced "Airy Say-well").
I know there's a chance that the MMO is dying, but I feel that if they open it up to allow for machinima to be made, it'd give the users a sense that they're a part of the story and gives them a bit of authorship in how it plays out (now that the show's gone and they're waiting for more content from Trion). I mean, look at what Red vs. Blue did for Halo (in fact, fans of Halo who have watched the series actually feel that the story in the series is better than the actual game's story, and some of them wish that Halo would adopt RvB's story). But that's just my opinion.
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CB2001
Master Member
New Update: Though the show went off the air in 2015, Defiance, and it's updated for next-gen version, Defiance 2050, are on their way out. Trion Games officially announced that they will be closing down the servers for the game on April 29, 2021. Rest in peace, Defiance. So sad to see such an amazing IP, with it's lore and stories, disappear into the background without even a footnote of what it tried to achieve: a transmedia experiment meant to use two mediums, TV and video game, to tell a complex and rather interesting story.
Rest in Peace to my Arkhunters:
Chase Lonehart: (Human): Defiance: Chase Lonehart (Updated) by codebreaker2001 on DeviantArt
Iri Sewuel: (Indogene, though they never released one for the actual game): Defiance: Iri Sewuel (Updated: 04/28/2016) by codebreaker2001 on DeviantArt
Rest in Peace to my Arkhunters:
Chase Lonehart: (Human): Defiance: Chase Lonehart (Updated) by codebreaker2001 on DeviantArt
Iri Sewuel: (Indogene, though they never released one for the actual game): Defiance: Iri Sewuel (Updated: 04/28/2016) by codebreaker2001 on DeviantArt
Can't believe it's been so long, it was a nice show. Ending was surprisingly good, I was expecting a meaningless ending.
