Axanar - Crowdfunded 'Star Trek' Movie Draws Lawsuit from Paramount, CBS

[Solo4114]

I talked to Richard Hatch at Dragon Con this past weekend, and he seemed pretty certain that Axanar is still going to happen. While I hope he's right and something gets worked out, I have my doubts.

Look, I'm sure Richard knows the industry better than a lot of us, but I highly doubt he knows the law better. Ultimately, that's what's going to kill this.

I am shocked that his legal team is letting him do this.

Not to mention they violated TOS for several things in sending the email about the auction to their donor list and could potential face a lawsuit about THAT as well.

I'm not shocked that they are doing this. (Well, 'he' really moreso than any 'they'.) I am shocked that his legal team has not forced him to stop. And several of the members of the production team have said even as recently as at DragonCon that yes, it is going to be made. I'm not sure if it's stubbornness or just delusional insanity at this point.

So, here's a possibly little-known fact about the life of a lawyer.

You actually can't "make" your client do anything. Same story for compliance officers. You have to have an already-willing client that will follow your suggestions for that approach to work. In the end, the client will make their own decisions. You can tell them til you're blue in the face "Don't do that. It will end badly," but if they wanna do it...they're gonna do it no matter what you say.

Related to this, you can't stop a client from doing something if you don't actually know they're doing it. If they don't have inside legal counsel, there's no reason their attorney would necessarily know what they're up to. I don't know everything my clients do with their businesses. Mostly I only know what they tell me and what I can pry out of them when I ask them stuff like "Wait...why did you just ask me that?"

 

[Angelus Lupus]

Paramount needs to swat him. The rest of the ST hobby needs to tell Paramount they want him swatted.

It's as simple as this, really. Regardless of the quality of the project (or the big names he was paying), his actions have proven him to be the One Bad Apple that we just don't need.
Get this turd out of the sandbox and let folks go back to enjoying fan-films.

 

[The Terminator]

As already stated, I personally would love to see more "Axanar", BUT for the right reasons and more importantly DONE right, i.e. no one gets to make any money off of it. Even that would be a no-no legally speaking.

But with the current "management" keep saying F the law, F paramount etc, is not a sound strategy :facepalm

 

[SVTStingRay]

As already stated, I personally would love to see more "Axanar", BUT for the right reasons and more importantly DONE right, i.e. no one gets to make any money off of it. Even that would be a no-no legally speaking.

if you pay a carpenter to build you a set, you are making money off of something technically. paying people to do a job to create something shouldnt be a copyright infringement...........just like the people in charge of axanar were given money (donated) to produce this show. obviously money is gonna be spent on the production

 

[Solo4114]

if you pay a carpenter to build you a set, you are making money off of something technically. paying people to do a job to create something shouldnt be a copyright infringement...........just like the people in charge of axanar were given money (donated) to produce this show. obviously money is gonna be spent on the production

That's now how the law applies in this case.

Basically, here's how it works. The "paying people to do a job" angle would work if, for example, Paramount tried to sue: the machine shop that let Axanar's propmaster mill or 3D print stuff; the already-licensed replica costume houses from which Axanar bought some costumes; the electrician Axanar hired to wire up their set one Thursday. Technically, these people are participating in infringement, although they aren't ultimately responsible for it.

But the notion that Axanar is just "doing a job" for other people is total nonsense.


Axanar engaged in textbook infringement. Plain and simple. They have advanced absurd legal theories -- at least one of which has been rightly ignored by the court (that the Klingon language should be in the public domain) -- and I strongly doubt that they'd meet any fair use exception.

This case won't survive a motion for summary judgment in the plaintiff's favor.

The only way that Axanar survives is by PAYING for a damn license, and I rather doubt that said license will be forthcoming from the studio. By the way, the studio doesn't HAVE to sell you a license if it doesn't want to, either. So the mere fact that Axanar might be willing to pay won't allow the project to move forward, either. I might have an AMAZING idea for a Star Wars sequel, but no matter how good it actually is, and no matter how much cash I lay at the feet of The Mouse King, Disney isn't obligated to grant me a license to go out and make my own Star Wars sequel if they don't want to.


Axanar is toast. Bet on it.

 

[batguy]

Paramount's legal team might as well prepare for the next step in the toasting process. I doubt Peters will stop fighting until he is literally facing a jail cell. Either that, or some aspect of this battle starts draining his personal bank account.



The ST fanbase needs to make it known loudly & clearly that the Axanar organization does not represent or speak for the rest of them.

 

[Moviefreak]

Paramount's legal team might as well prepare for the next step in the toasting process. I doubt Peters will stop fighting until he is literally facing a jail cell. Either that, or some aspect of this battle starts draining his personal bank account.
.

In a case like that he will just start another GoFundMe page and a bunch of his supporters will help him further pay his legal fees. There is a HUGE following of supporters who also are under the dilusion that he can keep fighting this until Paramount backs down. Those people will throw money at him to keep this up.

 

[asalaw]

That's now how the law applies in this case.

Basically, here's how it works. The "paying people to do a job" angle would work if, for example, Paramount tried to sue: the machine shop that let Axanar's propmaster mill or 3D print stuff; the already-licensed replica costume houses from which Axanar bought some costumes; the electrician Axanar hired to wire up their set one Thursday. Technically, these people are participating in infringement, although they aren't ultimately responsible for it.

But the notion that Axanar is just "doing a job" for other people is total nonsense.


Axanar engaged in textbook infringement. Plain and simple. They have advanced absurd legal theories -- at least one of which has been rightly ignored by the court (that the Klingon language should be in the public domain) -- and I strongly doubt that they'd meet any fair use exception.

This case won't survive a motion for summary judgment in the plaintiff's favor.

The only way that Axanar survives is by PAYING for a damn license, and I rather doubt that said license will be forthcoming from the studio. By the way, the studio doesn't HAVE to sell you a license if it doesn't want to, either. So the mere fact that Axanar might be willing to pay won't allow the project to move forward, either. I might have an AMAZING idea for a Star Wars sequel, but no matter how good it actually is, and no matter how much cash I lay at the feet of The Mouse King, Disney isn't obligated to grant me a license to go out and make my own Star Wars sequel if they don't want to.


Axanar is toast. Bet on it.

Yup. What he said. Frankly, I'm surprised they're taking this long to file the motion. It's a slam-dunk, the relevant law for the memo in support is practically cut-and-paste, and I can't imagine there's going to be a settlement where CBS/Para give any ground. Sure, it's easy to speculate that legal bills are being run up on the studios, but large corporations are really good at auditing their billing, and big firms know that. So what's the holdup, I wonder? :confused

 

[batguy]

In a case like that he will just start another GoFundMe page and a bunch of his supporters will help him further pay his legal fees. There is a HUGE following of supporters who also are under the dilusion that he can keep fighting this until Paramount backs down. Those people will throw money at him to keep this up.

Bankrupting the Axanar operation won't do squat to stop him. Not if it's a corporation-type deal with liabilities firewalled from him personally.

He will stop if it's bankrupting him personally and he knows he isn't likely to make it back.

I don't believe for a second that this guy would make himself broke trying to keep up the fight because of his lofty creative principles. He's probably in this for a crooked buck first and foremost.

 

[Solo4114]

In a case like that he will just start another GoFundMe page and a bunch of his supporters will help him further pay his legal fees. There is a HUGE following of supporters who also are under the dilusion that he can keep fighting this until Paramount backs down. Those people will throw money at him to keep this up.

I mean, fine, a fool and his money are soon parted, and people will fund his legal battle, but there's only so far you can go with that. I would expect that Paramount is suing not only sue for damages, but also injunctive relief, meaning that he'll have a court order to knock it the **** off and not start anything again in the future, or face increased fines at the very least. Dunno if a judge would hold you in contempt for violating such an order, but it's a possibility. The bottom line is that no matter how much fans want it, or how in-the-right he thinks he is morally, the law on this is clear: he's dead wrong, and he has no case. He can only fight this in a legal sense up to a point, and past that point, he's done. Also, once there's an actual judgment on record, people who work in the industry won't want anything to do with him.

Yup. What he said. Frankly, I'm surprised they're taking this long to file the motion. It's a slam-dunk, the relevant law for the memo in support is practically cut-and-paste, and I can't imagine there's going to be a settlement where CBS/Para give any ground. Sure, it's easy to speculate that legal bills are being run up on the studios, but large corporations are really good at auditing their billing, and big firms know that. So what's the holdup, I wonder? :confused

Two things.

1. Even if legal bills are mounting, they may just demand attorney fees as well, in which case, their legal bills are ultimately negligible. There's also the value of crushing Axanar into the dust as a deterrent to other projects in the same vein (especially the ones in DIRECT competition with the official product).

2. Maybe it's dragging on because they're in discovery and/or everyone was on vacation for the past couple weeks?

 

[Moviefreak]

I mean, fine, a fool and his money are soon parted, and people will fund his legal battle, but there's only so far you can go with that. I would expect that Paramount is suing not only sue for damages, but also injunctive relief, meaning that he'll have a court order to knock it the **** off and not start anything again in the future, or face increased fines at the very least. Dunno if a judge would hold you in contempt for violating such an order, but it's a possibility. The bottom line is that no matter how much fans want it, or how in-the-right he thinks he is morally, the law on this is clear: he's dead wrong, and he has no case. He can only fight this in a legal sense up to a point, and past that point, he's done. Also, once there's an actual judgment on record, people who work in the industry won't want anything to do with him.



Two things.

1. Even if legal bills are mounting, they may just demand attorney fees as well, in which case, their legal bills are ultimately negligible. There's also the value of crushing Axanar into the dust as a deterrent to other projects in the same vein (especially the ones in DIRECT competition with the official product).

2. Maybe it's dragging on because they're in discovery and/or everyone was on vacation for the past couple weeks?

Or #3. They notice the longer they sit idle, the deeper this guy digs himself into a hole by doing the "next crazy and unbelievable act".

Maybe they are letting this ride out because the more time that passes, the more damning evidence this guy lays at their feet and they are just sitting back letting this guy give them ammunition? Sure they probably don't need any more ammo to win this case, but if they are out to teach him a lesson, might as well see what else is in his "bag of tricks".

 

[mkstewartesq]

Yup. What he said. Frankly, I'm surprised they're taking this long to file the motion. It's a slam-dunk, the relevant law for the memo in support is practically cut-and-paste, and I can't imagine there's going to be a settlement where CBS/Para give any ground. Sure, it's easy to speculate that legal bills are being run up on the studios, but large corporations are really good at auditing their billing, and big firms know that. So what's the holdup, I wonder? :confused

Actually, CBS/Paramount is still engaged in discovery, lining up evidence on damages - so it's likely they want to get their ducks in a row on all issues before filing the motion. I am aware that they recently served a deposition notice/request for production of documents on Axanar's former chief of IT - and, as that person had little to nothing to do with the creative side (and everything to do with running the "donor store"/perk fulfillment system), it's pretty obvious they are looking for information from him on revenue, not infringement in the creation of the works. FYI that person was a staunch (nay, outright abrasive) mouthpiece for Axanar until he himself got burned and left the company; he has since posted publicly as a vocal detractor of Alec and Axanar in various groups, which is where I heard that he was being deposed.

M

 

[mistymills]

You actually can't "make" your client do anything. Same story for compliance officers. You have to have an already-willing client that will follow your suggestions for that approach to work. In the end, the client will make their own decisions. You can tell them til you're blue in the face "Don't do that. It will end badly," but if they wanna do it...they're gonna do it no matter what you say.

Related to this, you can't stop a client from doing something if you don't actually know they're doing it. If they don't have inside legal counsel, there's no reason their attorney would necessarily know what they're up to. I don't know everything my clients do with their businesses. Mostly I only know what they tell me and what I can pry out of them when I ask them stuff like "Wait...why did you just ask me that?"

If you were representing someone who was repeatedly and knowingly undermining your case, why would you keep them on as a client?

 

[NormanF]

If you were representing someone who was repeatedly and knowingly undermining your case, why would you keep them on as a client?

$$$?

Sent from my Motorola StarTAC

 

[Solo4114]

If you were representing someone who was repeatedly and knowingly undermining your case, why would you keep them on as a client?

Well, you can "fire" a client and stop representing them, of course, but there are some ethical issues that can tie in to where you can't just abandon them.

Plus, there are plenty of BAD lawyers out there who give BAD advice and/or have their own agenda that they're trying to advance. So, like, if he's represented by some EFF-oriented attorney, maybe they're doing it pro bono and trying to basically undermine the entire concept of ownership of intellectual property.

 

[mkstewartesq]

Well, you can "fire" a client and stop representing them, of course, but there are some ethical issues that can tie in to where you can't just abandon them.

Plus, there are plenty of BAD lawyers out there who give BAD advice and/or have their own agenda that they're trying to advance. So, like, if he's represented by some EFF-oriented attorney, maybe they're doing it pro bono and trying to basically undermine the entire concept of ownership of intellectual property.

Bingo on both points. First, they are neck-deep in litigation - it's very difficult under the applicable ethic rules to simply "drop out" of a case at that stage as doing so would almost certainly prejudice the client's interests and ability to defend the case.

Second, Erin Ranahan ofWinston & Strawn (partner in charge of the Axanar defense) has made a bit of a name defending clients in high-profile copyright cases in the "new media' field. Though she's made no public statement on exactly why W&S took this case pro bono to my knowledge, the common speculation is that the firm is looking for the publicity it will get from a win and the making of "new law" regarding the boundaries of fair use, which publicity can then be leveraged into work for other (paying) clients.

M

 

[Solo4114]

Bingo on both points. First, they are neck-deep in litigation - it's very difficult under the applicable ethic rules to simply "drop out" of a case at that stage as doing so would almost certainly prejudice the client's interests and ability to defend the case.

Second, Erin Ranahan ofWinston & Strawn (partner in charge of the Axanar defense) has made a bit of a name defending clients in high-profile copyright cases in the "new media' field. Though she's made no public statement on exactly why W&S took this case pro bono to my knowledge, the common speculation is that the firm is looking for the publicity it will get from a win and the making of "new law" regarding the boundaries of fair use, which publicity can then be leveraged into work for other (paying) clients.

M

And from a marketing perspective, Axanar is a terrific client. If you win, you've scored a MAJOR victory and very likely changed the law of copyright at its core. If you lose, well, the case was a clear loser anyway, so nobody can say "I would've done it better."

 

[Apollo]

Alec would

If you lose, well, the case was a clear loser anyway, so nobody can say "I would've done it better."

 

[batguy]

Paramount has little reason to hurry. AFAIK there are no other cases on the immediate horizon that cry out for a quick precedent. Peters/Axanar seem ready & willing to dig themselves farther into a hole the longer this proceeds. The movie is in no danger of getting finished & released.

 

[joberg]

I hope that those Axanar-entitled-crazies will be crushed by Paramount once and for all and that, at the end of the legal proceedings and judgement, they'll be left wondering what has hit them.