Am I The Only One Who Did Not Like Worf In Deep Space Nine ?????

[Treadwell]

The whole bajoran religious aspect bored me greatly.

Me, too, although I did watch the entire series. Worth it, but yeah, some stuff was tiring. But that's going to be the case with anything.
The "soap opera aging" of Alexander bugged me...he should've been under ten, and there he is as, what, a 17-year old?
Last season or two got really bogged down whenever they tried to take a break from the Dominion War stuff. Not that breaks weren't needed, but the holosuite lounge singer Vic Fontaine had no business being a recurring character. Final season provided the worst Mary Sue episode in the history of Star Trek (IMO), "The Sound of Her Voice". And an entire episode of baseball? Hope you enjoyed your circle wank, Ron and Michael!

I've been meaning to rewatch the entirety of Trek for quite some time, this included though.

 

[PotionMistress]

Wow, I disagree with almost all of you.

I thought Worf brought a little spice into DS9 which was really needed. All the Treks (and many other shows, for that matter) have needed a few seasons to 'find themselves', so to speak. Worf's lifelong struggle to find himself as a misfit Klingon is what is so interesting about him. I love how Trek has used their 'half-blood' or misfit characters as conflicted beings trying to find peace with themselves (ie: Spock, Worf, Be'lana).

What I didn't care for about DS9 was the Bajoran religious push, which of course was reflecting the same American trends in the USA, and also the whole emphasis on war....gadzewks that gets tiring! The whole appeal of Trek for me is that it demonstrates a possibility of a future that is not apocolyptic and where intelligent beings have learned to get along. Some conflicts in getting there is important, but not week after week of grim, mindless war, hate and destruction. I can read the papers if I want to engulf myself in that every day. And DS9 tended toward that, which is why I like it and Enterprise less than TOS and Voyager.

Garrick WAS one of the most interesting characters on DS9! And Vic Fontaine was WONDERFUL! I love all the epsiodes with his hollocharacter....it's so charming! He was a bright light in dull room, in my view.

 

[Jeyl]

"Our gods are dead. Klingon warriors slew them a mellenia ago. They were... more trouble than they were worth."
- Worf

 

[KrangPrime]

I liked Vic Fontaine and the baseball episode.

I also liked the Nog/Vic episode. I agree, a little break from the gritty war was majorly welcomed. I'm not a fan of darkness myself. and DS9 was a very dark series.
Just look at the episode where a whole planet of descendants was wiped out due to a time travel goof ;o).

 

[AJTaliesen]

I liked Vic Fontaine and the baseball episode.

I also liked the Nog/Vic episode. I agree, a little break from the gritty war was majorly welcomed. I'm not a fan of darkness myself. and DS9 was a very dark series.
Just look at the episode where a whole planet of descendants was wiped out due to a time travel goof ;o).

Or the one where they assassinated a Romulan Senator and framed the Dominion, or Jake dealing with cowardice in combat, or the one where a Federation Admiral was leading false flag missions, or the Benny Russel episodes that left us wondering what was real...

In terms of "dark" it definitely went where no Star Trek had gone before.

But they also had some of the most comical stuff as well...The tribbles, or pretty much anytime Quark was on screen, or the baseball card/cell regeneration and entertainment pod.

The stuff that bothered me was when they got too heavy handed with social commentary. The religious commentary wss a big one, but also racism. Previous Treks drew parallels (the left side of his face is white, vs right)... Whereas Sisko was still upset, three centuries later, about how blacks were treated in early 20th century US.

He even refused to visit Vics over it. That would be like modern New York Jews refusing to listen to Spanish music because they are still pissed about the inquisition. I know the comments were still very much relevant to the viewing audience, but it broke the fourth wall a bit by not leaning on allegory the way other Treks have.

I'm not sure I said that very well... Let me try again: you have to have social commentary. It's a defining characteristic of Star Trek. But it should be couched within Sci fi. Otherwise it just feels unnatural for characters to realistically care that much about things that happened four hundred years ago, on the other side of the galaxy, in countries that haven't even existed for centuries.

 

[KrangPrime]

But they also had some of the most comical stuff as well...The tribbles, or pretty much anytime Quark was on screen, or the baseball card/cell regeneration and entertainment pod.

The stuff that bothered me was when they got too heavy handed with social commentary. The religious commentary wss a big one, but also racism. Previous Treks drew parallels (the left side of his face is white, vs right)... Whereas Sisko was still upset, three centuries later, about how blacks were treated in early 20th century US.

He even refused to visit Vics over it. That would be like modern New York Jews refusing to listen to Spanish music because they are still pissed about the inquisition. I know the comments were still very much relevant to the viewing audience, but it broke the fourth wall a bit by not leaning on allegory the way other Treks have.
.

yep, I agree. that sisko bit came so out of left field, I can't help but wonder if someone asked them to put it in. It had absolutely nothing to do with the episode itself, and I don't think it ever came up as a part of sisko's character before. It felt ridiculous that humans would still hold on to a 300 year old or more issues.

the other bit I found weird was the Gowron plotline. Worf assassinating him after he helped him rise to power just seemed..odd..and like a 'we don't know what to do here' plotline.

 

[Michael Bergeron]

the other bit I found weird was the Gowron plotline. Worf assassinating him after he helped him rise to power just seemed..odd..and like a 'we don't know what to do here' plotline.

Funny you mention that. A friend of mine gets visibly upset whenever anyone mentions Gowron in DS9. He says they f'd up his character so bad there was no repair.

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk 2

 

[The Mad Professor]

The stuff that bothered me was when they got too heavy handed with social commentary. The religious commentary wss a big one, but also racism. Previous Treks drew parallels (the left side of his face is white, vs right)... Whereas Sisko was still upset, three centuries later, about how blacks were treated in early 20th century US.

He even refused to visit Vics over it. That would be like modern New York Jews refusing to listen to Spanish music because they are still pissed about the inquisition. I know the comments were still very much relevant to the viewing audience, but it broke the fourth wall a bit by not leaning on allegory the way other Treks have.

I can get behind Sisko not wanting to go to Vic's place. It made sense to me. Vic's wasn't just a place to hear music. It was a recreation of an era that wasn't exactly friendly to African Americans. A more apt analogy than modern Jews not wanting to listen to Spanish music would be modern Jews not wanting to go visit a reenactment of the Spanish Inquisition.

 

[trekcolencc1701]

Yeah, another thing besides Worf that bugged me was Terry Farrells decision to leave the show. Ezri never got any feelings from me like Jadzia did. It was BS that she left, but thats just show biz…. I guess…..

Oh and also when Odo magically gets transformed back into a changeling from being a Solid for what a few months ?????, maybe a year ???. I mean if that Baby changeling could of just jumped out on Odo and turn him into a changeling, Why the heck could it have not turned someone else into one too ??

 

[Treadwell]

Vic was done well, but he belonged in another show.

Oh yeah, DS9 introduced Section 31, perhaps the biggest anti-Roddenberry concept introduced in his absence. A secret covert but sanctioned part of Starfleet/UFP to do immoral works because "someone has to"? Nuh-uh. That's JJ level non-Star Trek Star Trek.

 

[Michael Bergeron]

A more apt analogy than modern Jews not wanting to listen to Spanish music would be modern Jews not wanting to go visit a reenactment of the Spanish Inquisition.

To be more specific, it would be like modern Jews not wanting to go to a reenactment of a bar in Barcelona during the era of the Spanish Inquisition. Which seems a little silly considering how separated from the events of the time they are. Unless of course the Inquisition bursts into the bar (which no one would expect) it's just a medieval gathering that doesn't have any political overtones in and of itself.

So, being a DS9 novice I'd have to say that if the scenes at Vic's had visual or audio representation of racism (black waiters but no black guests, people making racist comments) I'm with Sisko. If it's just a club from an era where black people were not yet considered equal in America but has no representation of that then I'd say it's breaking the fourth wall at the expense of realistic character to make a commentary on racism.

Never once did Geordi LaForge make a comment that he didn't belong in Victorian London as Dr. Watson. Why would he? It's make believe in an era that you're hundreds of years separated from.

 

[The Mad Professor]

I actually liked Section 31. They made sense for the setting. Think about it. Every major government past and present has always had people who do their dirty work on foreign soil. Spies, assassins, saboteurs, you name it and every government employs them at some level. The more outwardly beneficent the government, the more quiet they must keep their dirty work in order to maintain that public facade. Well, The Federation is, by all accounts, a peace-loving utopia of friendliness and good will, and considering the other powers they faced, such as the militant Klingon Empire, the duplicitous Romulan Star Empire, the xenophobic Tholian Assembly, and the rest of them, someone got smart way early in the game and realized that the peaceful Federation would be overrun in no time by outside threats without a group willing to do whatever it takes to ensure that the Federation survived. Indeed, while I find the idea abhorrent, the fact that Section 31 concocted the Changeling virus and exposed Odo to it is probably the only thing that saved the Federation from annihilation because the Changelings were focused on trying to cure the disease, and as such, devoted less direct influence on the war effort, leaving it to less capable beings like Weyoun and Gul Dukat.

 

[Treadwell]

Yes, it's realistic for the real world of today. The Roddenberry humans of the future (realistic or not) do not do such things. One can make an argument that humanity will never achieve that, but the very premise of Star Trek is that they can, and they will. It is the basic conceit of the show.

There's plenty of room for gritty views of humanity in other franchises.

 

[Apollo]

:lol The only Capt. to sucker punch Q and get away with it! :lol

DS9 was weak at first, but once it got going and Sisko became Hawk in Space and pulled both a Picard and Riker and grew a Beard of Awesome and went Bald of Awesome, it got better. Things REALLY kicked into high gear when the Dominion came on the scene and DS9 went from peacenik hippies in space to all out war. Some of the best episodes of Trek all around came from this era.

 

[Michael Bergeron]

:lol The only Capt. to sucker punch Q and get away with it! :lol

:lol Now THAT episode I've seen. I believe the correct take away isn't that he "got away with it" but rather that he gave in to the provocation, exactly what Q wanted.

And he wasn't a captain at the time.

 

[The Mad Professor]

:lol Now THAT episode I've seen. I believe the correct take away isn't that he "got away with it" but rather that he gave in to the provocation, exactly what Q wanted.

And he wasn't a captain at the time.

No, Q very clearly wanted to just needle Sisko and annoy him like he always did to Picard. Picard is the consummate peacekeeper who responds with helpless frustration like any other person would when being trolled. Q WANTS to rattle people. He WANTS people to play his little games. He loves it. He finds it endlessly entertaining.

What he failed to understand is that unlike Picard, Sisko doesn't play games. He doesn't screw around and try to appease everyone around him. When pushed to his limit, Sisko acts. This was a lesson that Q learned very quickly and very painfully, or more to the point, Q's face learned the lesson.

The entirety of that can be summed up by the dialogue immediately following the Punch Heard 'Round The Continuum:

Q: You hit me! Picard NEVER hit me!

Sisko: I'm not Picard.

Q basically went in, expecting to have some fun as usual, and didn't realize that he was poking a dragon.

You'll note that Q never showed his smug face around DS9 after that episode. He realized that Sisko wasn't going to play his games, and to Q, that's no fun.

My own personal head canon is that once Q got knocked on his ass, he realized that Sisko was half-Prophet and decided to not kick that hornet's nest again.

 

[Apollo]

Right, I forgot he did'nt get promoted untill he shaved his head! :lol

I don't recall that being what Q wanted though "Picard would have never have done that" or something like that was said.

Regardless Avery is one cool cat with a wicked sense of humor.

I have been fortunate to have quite a few conversations with him over the years as he remembered me from when he was doing location shooting for his spin off series "Hawk"

:lol Now THAT episode I've seen. I believe the correct take away isn't that he "got away with it" but rather that he gave in to the provocation, exactly what Q wanted.

And he wasn't a captain at the time.

 

[Michael Bergeron]

No, Q very clearly wanted to just needle Sisko and annoy him like he always did to Picard. Picard is the consummate peacekeeper who responds with helpless frustration like any other person would when being trolled. Q WANTS to rattle people. He WANTS people to play his little games. He loves it. He finds it endlessly entertaining.

What he failed to understand is that unlike Picard, Sisko doesn't play games. He doesn't screw around and try to appease everyone around him. When pushed to his limit, Sisko acts. This was a lesson that Q learned very quickly and very painfully, or more to the point, Q's face learned the lesson.

The entirety of that can be summed up by the dialogue immediately following the Punch Heard 'Round The Continuum:

Q: You hit me! Picard NEVER hit me!

Sisko: I'm not Picard.

Q basically went in, expecting to have some fun as usual, and didn't realize that he was poking a dragon.

You leave out the last line of dialogue that puts the scene in perspective:

Q: "Indeed not, you're much easier to provoke"


Yes, Q wants people to play his little games. Sisko DID by hitting him. Exactly what he wanted as evidence in the last line there that Sisko fans always turn off the TV before they hear. :lol

 

[Apollo]

:lol :lol :lol

Q: You hit me! Picard NEVER hit me!

Sisko: I'm not Picard.

Q basically went in, expecting to have some fun as usual, and didn't realize that he was poking a dragon.

 

[The Mad Professor]

You leave out the last line of dialogue that puts the scene in perspective:

Q: "Indeed not, you're much easier to provoke"


Yes, Q wants people to play his little games. Sisko DID by hitting him. Exactly what he wanted as evidence in the last line there that Sisko fans always turn off the TV before they hear. :lol

Yet despite this, Q never showed back up on DS9...

Also, I think that "easier to provoke" line was just Q's ego speaking, as he would never openly admit to being caught off guard by a mere mortal.