"Atlas Shrugged" out on Friday!

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The redistribution of wealth by government was a major theme of Atlas Shrugged.

The parallel with modern events is that many governments are running themselves to the point of collapse with entitlement programs that cannot be sustained as majority employment shifts from manufacturing to government employees engaged in the redistribution of wealth.

Mike

I haven't read the book - did the redistribution of wealth in Atlas Shrugged only go to the underprivileged, or does it, like under Progressivism, mostly go to the insanely rich central bankers and the corporate CEO's and their' wives?

Not looking to debate, just asking a yes or no question because I'm genuinely curious about the parallels.
 
I haven't read the book - did the redistribution of wealth in Atlas Shrugged only go to the underprivileged, or does it, like under Progressivism, mostly go to the insanely rich central bankers and the corporate CEO's and their' wives?

Not looking to debate, just asking a yes or no question because I'm genuinely curious about the parallels.

Rand's focus, based on her experiences in Leninist Russia, soured her on the creation of a privileged government class.
WHO they redistribute wealth TO was not the issue, but the fact that politicians created a place for themselves that contributes nothing to the economy and from which they cannot be easily removed.

Who government redistributes wealth to is politicizing the argument,
the philosophical aspect is that they do it at all, and Rand's view is that creators of wealth should take precedence over wealth re-distributors.

Mike
 
The redistribution of wealth by government was a major theme of Atlas Shrugged.

The parallel with modern events is that many governments are running themselves to the point of collapse with entitlement programs that cannot be sustained as majority employment shifts from manufacturing to government employees engaged in the redistribution of wealth.

Mike


Got any figures for that as far as percentage of workforce? That seems...a bit hyperbolic, really.

I think the real problems you have with systems that redistribute wealth come when the public comes to expect the benefits from a social program, but are unwilling to shoulder the tax burden necessary to sustain that -- or where they are unwilling, unaware, or otherwise unable to make those with the wealth actually cough up.

I mean, at a very very very (and did I mention "very"?) basic level, you can run big entitlement programs, as long as money continues to flow into them. That money's got to come from somewhere, though, and the problem is that everyone wants the program, but nobody wants to pay for it.


This gets back to the point I was making earlier about considering systems that are designed to support "freedom."

On the one hand, you could make the argument that a system that has no social welfare programs enhances freedom because the government does not take money out of your paycheck and give it to someone else in the form of social welfare benefits. But, you might also argue that such a system denies and restricts freedom when wealth becomes concentrated with a small group of people, which leads to large numbers of people being nominally free to choose, but having their range of choices severely limited by economic factors.

On the other hand, you can make the argument that a system that redistributes wealth promotes freedom, because it gives people enough of a "level playing field" in terms of their basic needs that it allows them the freedom to pursue their life as they choose. In other words, they are free to live their lives as they choose, because the government has removed a particular set of economic limitations that would otherwise limit their freedom. But, you could flip that around and say that such a system restricts freedom because it denies you the full ability to choose how your wealth/property is used (since a percentage of it is necessarily taken by the government to be delivered to others).


So, again, the question is what KIND of freedom matters to someone? I think many people take it for granted that the right to use ones property and to be free from government interference with such property is a fundamental concept of freedom, but it need not be. That's a very "American" (well, really Lockeian) view of the nature of freedom, and it presupposes that one HAS and/or CAN GET property in the first place. And thus you start to see the inherent tensions of balancing "freedom" against "equality." (Although with both words, the terms themselves are loaded with presupposed meanings and mutual understanding.)


As a general point, especially when considering politics and political philosophy, it's critical to recognize that the individual words used to frame the debate may themselves be open to debate. Moreover, the words can be used offensively (not as in "I take offense" but as in "we're going on the offense") to limit the debate. IE: "Are you saying you're against FREEDOM, sir?!" Well, maybe I am -- if you and I don't define "Freedom" the same way.
 
Got any figures for that as far as percentage of workforce? That seems...a bit hyperbolic, really.

SNIP

Just read an article that compared 1968 to 2010.
Sorry, I don't remember exact figures,
but it was something like 10.4 million manufacturing to 11 million government.
If you want more info you may check it yourself.
Obviously there are variables (regulators versus politicians versus road crews) that weren't specifically laid out in the article.

Just, generally speaking, the government has overtaken the industrial base as a percentage of the workforce.

I don't care how you slice or what you call it, Rand saw things like that as a recipe for disaster.
Government bigger/more-powerful than industry; bad in Atlas Shrugged.
 
The problem is that you have a skew creeping in not simply because "waaah rapacious bureaucracies are growing out of control!!!", but because - unlike manufacturing - it's more difficult to outsource or offshore government functions. :p
 
As for railways, they still transport a LOT of material, about 25% of everything shipped in the US, and in a much more efficient manner than anything else. It's not used as much for transportation of people, but if the rails started splitting and engines started wrecking, I'm sure you'd notice the effect.

Yep. But nothing like they did when the book was written. If the railways shut down it would certainly be felt but in the 50's if the rails shut down the country would have stopped almost completely.
 
Just read an article that compared 1968 to 2010.
Sorry, I don't remember exact figures,
but it was something like 10.4 million manufacturing to 11 million government.
If you want more info you may check it yourself.
Obviously there are variables (regulators versus politicians versus road crews) that weren't specifically laid out in the article.

Just, generally speaking, the government has overtaken the industrial base as a percentage of the workforce.

I don't care how you slice or what you call it, Rand saw things like that as a recipe for disaster.
Government bigger/more-powerful than industry; bad in Atlas Shrugged.

I'd be curious to see the article. Do you have a cite or a URL for it?
 
Rand's focus, based on her experiences in Leninist Russia, soured her on the creation of a privileged government class.
WHO they redistribute wealth TO was not the issue, but the fact that politicians created a place for themselves that contributes nothing to the economy and from which they cannot be easily removed.

Who government redistributes wealth to is politicizing the argument,
the philosophical aspect is that they do it at all, and Rand's view is that creators of wealth should take precedence over wealth re-distributors.

Mike

Maybe it was not the issue with her back then, but it certainly matters to those who support redistribution when they find out where it really goes.... And I was curious if she foresaw the mess the Federal Reserve would make. I can wait to see the movie, though.

Just read an article that compared 1968 to 2010.
Sorry, I don't remember exact figures,
but it was something like 10.4 million manufacturing to 11 million government.
If you want more info you may check it yourself.
Obviously there are variables (regulators versus politicians versus road crews) that weren't specifically laid out in the article.

Just, generally speaking, the government has overtaken the industrial base as a percentage of the workforce.

Most charts I found only show the last 10 years, but then I found this:

emp.jpg


Found it here.
 
True, but that figure is gov't vs. manufacturing, not gov't vs. private altogether. What are the figures, I wonder, about things like service industries, professions, clerical and administrative positions, etc.? It's no secret that the U.S. doesn't produce as much "stuff" as it used to, but it'd be interesting to see how all private employment combined would compare to government employment.


That blog is also hardly what I'd call analytical. Or at least the blog post itself isn't. It's a collection of quotes which, in and of themselves, don't tell you anything. The WSJ quote is particularly laughable, and is exactly the kind of thing I've been talking about in terms of framing the debate. The quote reads:

"If you want to understand better why so many states—from New York to Wisconsin to California—are teetering on the brink of bankruptcy, consider this depressing statistic: Today in America there are nearly twice as many people working for the government (22.5 million) than in all of manufacturing (11.5 million). This is an almost exact reversal of the situation in 1960, when there were 15 million workers in manufacturing and 8.7 million collecting a paycheck from the government (see chart above).

The quote IMPLIES a causal connection between the decline in manufacturing and the rise in government employment and subsequent bankruptcy of federal and state governments. Frankly, I'm not so sure that the rise or decline in either of those two statistics has anything to do with the other, mostly because I don't see working the line at a Chrysler plant as translating particularly well to working for an administrative agency in the government.

In that chart, there are TWO lines at work, and no reason to assume -- or accept the quote's unspoken premise -- that the two are intrinsically connected. Now, accepting, for the sake of argument, that the figures the chart features are themselves accurate, then it's true that government jobs increased, and private jobs decreased. That, however, begs the question of why.

The WSJ quote sets the reader up to jump to the "obvious" conclusion that the private sector declined BECAUSE the public sector increased. It's bad enough that the quote and the blog don't address the whys or hows of either phenomena taken separately, but the quote specifically seeks to LINK the two phenomena together. This is an argumentation/persuasion tactic designed to pull the wool over the reader's eyes, or at least to persuade the reader to agree with the writer's underlying argument (to wit: government jobs = bad). But ask yourself this, for a second.

Did the private jobs disappear because government jobs were more attractive to people? Or did the government jobs increase because private manufacturing employment tapered off with further globalizaton and outsourcing of labor -- in other words, you work for the government because you CAN'T get a job anywhere else now that those jobs have gone overseas? Or do the two have anything at all to do with each other?

The quote in the blog seems to suggest that "government" and "manufacturing" jobs are two sides of a scale where weight is automatically transferred from one side to the other. I don't buy that. Certainly I don't buy it without more information to make the case. It's just too easy to demonize EITHER end of the argument by accepting the IMPLICIT premise that the two are necessarily connected. Again, this is what I've been talking about with framing the debate. Someone throws out a position and frames the debate in a particular way, and you're stuck arguing with them on their chosen ground. Don't fall for it. Question the BASE of the argument, not just the superstructure.


Regardless, if we accept the proposition that there is a causal connection between the two phenomena, then I wonder what the "freedom" argument would be in addressing that situation. Would firing all those government workers mean they'd go get jobs in manufacturing all of a sudden? Or would they simply be unemployed because their skills aren't transferrable?


To tie the whole debate back to the Ayn Rand thing and my points about "freedom" previously, if we assume that "less government = more freedom," well, what has less government gotten in this case? On the one hand, you could argue that less government gave corporations the freedom to go overseas to find cheaper workers. On the other, you could argue that, as the government grows, the people are more likely to have to pay higher taxes, or to lose their government jobs as taxes stay as-is and budgets are cut. So you give freedom with one hand and take with the other? Or maybe the term "freedom" is simply tossed around too loosely.
 
At Solo4114:
You have put down many ideas and points of interest about the philosophy of Ayn Rand, but the original "point of contention", as it were, was whether the film was wisely placed in today's world or if it would have been better placed in the future of the time it was written. In that context, the question of whether today's events are relevent:

And yet, the very collapse she predicted in the book is happening now across the world in countries similar to the one in her book.

Can't really see where you're getting that from.

I think it was inspired to set it in modern day, snippets of the film set in front of government buildings with Mouch's announcement made it look like the nightly news, with announcements disturbingly close to reality.

So, while you bring up many interesting points of discussion relative to the relevence of Rand's work to why there has been a shift in manufacturing vs service vs government roles in the economy;
I think the important point in the Movie Discussions thread is that it is acceptable to place Atlas Shrugged in our current world because the increase in governments redistributing wealth
(regardless of who or why)
makes it possible to explore Ayn Rands themes IN our current world scenario.

Ayn Rand was appalled by the Leninist-Communist government's redistribution of wealth in the Soviet Union.
Whether redistribution happens in a totalitarian dictatorship,
or a western nannystate doesn't change the ability of a filmmaker to tell the story of Atlas Shrugged.

Mike
 
I haven't read the book - did the redistribution of wealth in Atlas Shrugged only go to the underprivileged, or does it, like under Progressivism, mostly go to the insanely rich central bankers and the corporate CEO's and their' wives?

Not looking to debate, just asking a yes or no question because I'm genuinely curious about the parallels.

Government agents in the book absolutely manipulated the system to give themselves anything they wanted at the expense of others.
 
I think the important point in the Movie Discussions thread is that it is acceptable to place Atlas Shrugged in our current world because the increase in governments redistributing wealth

Okay, first off, who exactly are you debating this with? Cause as far as I can tell, no one else cares that they changed the setting of the story to modern day. It's like debating King Kong 1933 vs King Kong 1976. Doesn't mattere because it's still a story about a giant monkey.

Edit: Oh wait, never mind. I just scrolled up and saw the posts. Guess it just didn't register the first time.

And secondly, I really want to answer that whole 'redistribution of wealth' thing, because it's blatantly a staw man arguement that has no basis in fact.... But I can't because that's veering into politics again and for the sake of civility I think we all need to steer back to philosphy and stay there.

:angry Very frustrated right now.
 
Minor point of clarification, but I think you're talking more about Marxist-Leninism, rather than pure Marxism. Copyright on the Communist Manifesto is 1848.

Thanks for the clarification. Communist history and philosophy was never my strong suit.
 
See. This is why talking about this woman's books is bad for this forum. Because her ideas were poison. Nothing good can come from talking about this on the Replica Prop Forum.

Why can't we just all agree that Attack of the Clones was the worst movie ever and talk about that?


:angry Very frustrated right now.
 
See. This is why talking about this woman's books is bad for this forum. Because her ideas were poison. Nothing good can come from talking about this on the Replica Prop Forum.

Why can't we just all agree that Attack of the Clones was the worst movie ever and talk about that?

Poison? Wow.. that's some hate you are feeling there. You should probably talk to someone about it.
 
Because her ideas were poison.

Lol... Come on, that's like calling atheists soulless creatures just because they don't believe in God. She makes valid points that may be impractical in practice but are interesting philosophically. Why all the hate?

I don't understand why debates about this type of thing have to get so heated. No one on either side is evil, everyone just chill. ;)

Why can't we just all agree that Attack of the Clones was the worst movie ever and talk about that?

Because I've seen worse movies... Your saying that is poison! :lol
 
At Solo4114:
You have put down many ideas and points of interest about the philosophy of Ayn Rand, but the original "point of contention", as it were, was whether the film was wisely placed in today's world or if it would have been better placed in the future of the time it was written.

If I was putting down her points specifically, it certainly wasn't my intention. I honestly don't know much about her attitudes. My point was more about orienting one's thoughts when considering political philosophies and arguments in general. So, less about saying "Ayn Rand is wrong!" or "Howard Johnson is right!" or whathaveyou, and more about saying "If you're gonna say one of them is right or wrong, take a good hard look at what they're saying and HOW they argue it, and recognize that any meaningful argument will define its terms up front and proceed accordingly." Like I said, I'm not familiar enough with her attitudes to say anything about her one way or the other. I know she's popular amongst some conservatives, but beyond that, I got nothin'. :)

I've actually tried to keep my own opinions on the subject of redistribution of wealth out of the discussion, and while you might be able to hazard a guess as to my stance, I don't THINK I've actually attacked anything on one side or the other. Or at least, I haven't tried. The only thing I've really tried to argue is that how we frame debates and the language we choose is important to consider when looking at the debate itself. If someone argues in favor of "equality" for example, that presupposes (1) a definition of the term itself, and (2) that (according to their definition) "equality" is good. I think you've got to break down below that layer of argument and look at the very foundation of their position -- and then attack THAT if you're going to bother (or at least recognize that you're coming from radically different positions and need to at least agree on terms before continuing the debate).


So, while you bring up many interesting points of discussion relative to the relevence of Rand's work to why there has been a shift in manufacturing vs service vs government roles in the economy;
I think the important point in the Movie Discussions thread is that it is acceptable to place Atlas Shrugged in our current world because the increase in governments redistributing wealth
(regardless of who or why)
makes it possible to explore Ayn Rands themes IN our current world scenario.

Ayn Rand was appalled by the Leninist-Communist government's redistribution of wealth in the Soviet Union.
Whether redistribution happens in a totalitarian dictatorship,
or a western nannystate doesn't change the ability of a filmmaker to tell the story of Atlas Shrugged.

Mike

I don't disagree with that at all, actually (although I would argue that use of the term "nanny state" betrays your own attitudes on the subject ;)). There's no denying that the U.S. and many other countries utilize systems that are redistributive/social-safety-net/welfare-state types. So, regardless of whether one actually agrees with the underlying argument Rand and/or her supporters might make, the fact is that it's relevant to make the argument in the first place. If trains act as the central mode of transport, I could see where that might come across as anachronistic, but if the story is set in some alternate present/future or speculative society, I think that can be forgiven.

Besides, sometimes taking a setting that is known and familiar and tweaking this or that aspect can cause you to look at the story a little closer, and in turn, consider more closely your own circumstances. In my opinion, the best works of speculative fiction and/or sci-fi do just that -- explore the "ordinary" in the context of the fantastical, and in so doing, highlight the "ordinary" commonalities between our world and the fictional one.



Oh, and as for Ayn Rand's ideas being "poison," I'd say two things. (1) this discussion has been wonderfully civil, all things considered, and (2) ideas themselves are never poison -- when humans get their mitts on the idea that you introduce toxicity into things.
 
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