Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
Enhanced that 4 U.
Enhanced that 4 U.
PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction / Vader Helmet Discussion
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Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
Well it is just really interesting that the DP/Fyberdyne/GH/Jeff lineage is now apparently an offshoot of the Baker ILM mold...all from a copy of one that Don Post received or pulled, and it seems this is confirmed. That's a big change in the upper part of the Vader lineage tree. That would explain why that lineage never had tabs. I thought I had heard at some point that there were tabs and they were removed, but now based on this new information that would not have been possible.
Well it is just really interesting that the DP/Fyberdyne/GH/Jeff lineage is now apparently an offshoot of the Baker ILM mold...all from a copy of one that Don Post received or pulled, and it seems this is confirmed. That's a big change in the upper part of the Vader lineage tree. That would explain why that lineage never had tabs. I thought I had heard at some point that there were tabs and they were removed, but now based on this new information that would not have been possible.
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
Someone who is also very astute pointed this out to me and indeed this little indent on the curvature of the neck is a tell from a mask from the Baker/ILM mold. Again this supports that the auction helmet is a copy of the original ANH, not an original.
So if a helmet is claimed to be an original Vader helmet from Star Wars ANH, then it should look at least as good if not better than the helmet on the right. I tried to scale them but I am confident the PIH one will be smaller so don't take the scaling as gospel. Keep in mind the PIH helmet is tilted forward more making the flaring seem shorter but also I think it is shorter on Vader's right (the left side). This is a characteristic of the Fyberdyne/GH/Jeff lineage, probably an attempt by Don Post to make the helmet flaring more symmetrical, and again an indication that the helmet isn't an original.
(yes I took the tusks from the auction image just for fun to dress it up a tad)
Someone who is also very astute pointed this out to me and indeed this little indent on the curvature of the neck is a tell from a mask from the Baker/ILM mold. Again this supports that the auction helmet is a copy of the original ANH, not an original.
So if a helmet is claimed to be an original Vader helmet from Star Wars ANH, then it should look at least as good if not better than the helmet on the right. I tried to scale them but I am confident the PIH one will be smaller so don't take the scaling as gospel. Keep in mind the PIH helmet is tilted forward more making the flaring seem shorter but also I think it is shorter on Vader's right (the left side). This is a characteristic of the Fyberdyne/GH/Jeff lineage, probably an attempt by Don Post to make the helmet flaring more symmetrical, and again an indication that the helmet isn't an original.
(yes I took the tusks from the auction image just for fun to dress it up a tad)
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Too Much Garlic
Master Member
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
The PIH and the SL are clearly photographed at very different distances and zoom, which accounts for many of the differences.
So, you now say it is confirmed then. So my theory really wasn't that strange, even though everyone barked at it for years.
Top SL (auction pictures), bottom GH.
The PIH and the SL are clearly photographed at very different distances and zoom, which accounts for many of the differences.
So, you now say it is confirmed then. So my theory really wasn't that strange, even though everyone barked at it for years.
Top SL (auction pictures), bottom GH.
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
Show me where you posted evidence of having that theory and where I barked at you about it. What was thought to be the case was that the DP came from a mold DP took of the original, and now you are saying there was this big controversy about it and there wasn't. But I would like to see where you posted not just an idea but evidence to support it.
I'm not interested in this arguing with you. Anytime I try to come to a conclusion you bait me about having said something about it before. Sure we discussed things like this before. I don't care who comes up with it. I just want to be able to confirm it. And when I say it is confirmed that is based on both the tells and on someone who was there at the time. So it isn't just my own analysis. And your comparison shows what exactly?
Show me where you posted evidence of having that theory and where I barked at you about it. What was thought to be the case was that the DP came from a mold DP took of the original, and now you are saying there was this big controversy about it and there wasn't. But I would like to see where you posted not just an idea but evidence to support it.
I'm not interested in this arguing with you. Anytime I try to come to a conclusion you bait me about having said something about it before. Sure we discussed things like this before. I don't care who comes up with it. I just want to be able to confirm it. And when I say it is confirmed that is based on both the tells and on someone who was there at the time. So it isn't just my own analysis. And your comparison shows what exactly?
Too Much Garlic
Master Member
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
Shows an SL and a GH. I thought I made that pretty clear.
Shows an SL and a GH. I thought I made that pretty clear.
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
I know, but what I meant is whether when you first posted this (haven't seen this comp before) if you were meaning to show anything in regard to similarity of the tusk tubes, or lenses, or? Certainly the possibility of relationship is/was there but I don't think there was anything particularly compelling or exact to indicate a definite relationship. If you had a thread about it and posted this before then I must have missed it. But even if I had seen it, it would not have convinced me. Seeing tells on a DP hybrid mask that match those of a casting from the Baker ILM mold did. I think the main thing here is that if I confirm something it just means that I convinced myself and I try to show why. That doesn't mean I suggested it first. But if you or someone else already confirmed it then I'm always interested to hear details about how.
I know, but what I meant is whether when you first posted this (haven't seen this comp before) if you were meaning to show anything in regard to similarity of the tusk tubes, or lenses, or? Certainly the possibility of relationship is/was there but I don't think there was anything particularly compelling or exact to indicate a definite relationship. If you had a thread about it and posted this before then I must have missed it. But even if I had seen it, it would not have convinced me. Seeing tells on a DP hybrid mask that match those of a casting from the Baker ILM mold did. I think the main thing here is that if I confirm something it just means that I convinced myself and I try to show why. That doesn't mean I suggested it first. But if you or someone else already confirmed it then I'm always interested to hear details about how.
Too Much Garlic
Master Member
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
The thing is. You have no proof that the PIH helmet was used for the GH/Fyberdyne line of helmets. All you are basing your claim on is similarities between the PIH and your SL... and then some possible similarities with the Fyberdyne. The only thing that connects the three is the fact that it's a Rick Baker mold casting and it was brought to Don Post and the GH/Fyberdyne line of helmets supposedly originating from DP. If you've got more background info on the auction helmet than what is said in the auction write-up I'd love to hear it. But you are connecting dots that are still just supposition - same as everyone else. Unless you have more info to suggest that this was in fact the helmet that was used for the supposed DP ANH run to which a cast from it was altered into what we know as the GH/Fyberdyne line of helmets, it's still just theory connecting the various lines together.
Didn't really have anything in particular to say with the comparison. Just to highlight a possible connection.
The thing is. You have no proof that the PIH helmet was used for the GH/Fyberdyne line of helmets. All you are basing your claim on is similarities between the PIH and your SL... and then some possible similarities with the Fyberdyne. The only thing that connects the three is the fact that it's a Rick Baker mold casting and it was brought to Don Post and the GH/Fyberdyne line of helmets supposedly originating from DP. If you've got more background info on the auction helmet than what is said in the auction write-up I'd love to hear it. But you are connecting dots that are still just supposition - same as everyone else. Unless you have more info to suggest that this was in fact the helmet that was used for the supposed DP ANH run to which a cast from it was altered into what we know as the GH/Fyberdyne line of helmets, it's still just theory connecting the various lines together.
Didn't really have anything in particular to say with the comparison. Just to highlight a possible connection.
dexter1138
Well-Known Member
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
Looking at the pictures available and the ones posted, I don't see any similarity between the PIH helmet and the Fyberdyne. It's easier to say what's not in common that what is. I too saw this helmet recently and was told that the internet experts would not stop this auction. I assume the consignor either has a great reputation or this comes with some type of lineage not disclosed until after the auction.
I would never buy a piece like this because of all the replicas and if there is even any doubt, it should be pulled from the auction.
It's a shame that PIH doesn't listen to the prop community when there are obvious problems with a piece. I was told that there are a lot of politics at play and they take all information with a grain of salt.
It's up to the buyer to prove it's not real, but shouldn't that have been verified before the sale?
Dex
Looking at the pictures available and the ones posted, I don't see any similarity between the PIH helmet and the Fyberdyne. It's easier to say what's not in common that what is. I too saw this helmet recently and was told that the internet experts would not stop this auction. I assume the consignor either has a great reputation or this comes with some type of lineage not disclosed until after the auction.
I would never buy a piece like this because of all the replicas and if there is even any doubt, it should be pulled from the auction.
It's a shame that PIH doesn't listen to the prop community when there are obvious problems with a piece. I was told that there are a lot of politics at play and they take all information with a grain of salt.
It's up to the buyer to prove it's not real, but shouldn't that have been verified before the sale?
Dex
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
Well, yes, I am only sure about the helmet not being an original, and fairly sure at least about it coming from the Baker ILM mold, or a copy thereof, again supporting that it is not an original ANH. I guess everyone who knows something about Vader could see that it isn't original. I wasn't confirming that it is the father of the GH/Fyberdyne line, just that it has similarities. Clearly the provenance suggests it comes from DP so the assumption is just that, that it could have fathered that line. But I make no claim of certainty in that regard.
It is a nice comparison.
Well, yes, I am only sure about the helmet not being an original, and fairly sure at least about it coming from the Baker ILM mold, or a copy thereof, again supporting that it is not an original ANH. I guess everyone who knows something about Vader could see that it isn't original. I wasn't confirming that it is the father of the GH/Fyberdyne line, just that it has similarities. Clearly the provenance suggests it comes from DP so the assumption is just that, that it could have fathered that line. But I make no claim of certainty in that regard.
It is a nice comparison.
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
Let me go back to this to clarify. What I meant by confirmed is that the original ANH helmet was not molded by Don Post. Given that this helmet appears to be related to the Baker ILM mold and given that it also has features of the DP lineage, if the provenance in terms of source of this helmet is true (being from DP) then it gives us evidence of the source of the DP line. So when I said "it seems this is confirmed" I was referring to the latter part of that sentence, namely "from a copy of one that Don Post received or pulled". I think there was a misunderstanding that I meant the DP lineage source was confirmed.
Let me go back to this to clarify. What I meant by confirmed is that the original ANH helmet was not molded by Don Post. Given that this helmet appears to be related to the Baker ILM mold and given that it also has features of the DP lineage, if the provenance in terms of source of this helmet is true (being from DP) then it gives us evidence of the source of the DP line. So when I said "it seems this is confirmed" I was referring to the latter part of that sentence, namely "from a copy of one that Don Post received or pulled". I think there was a misunderstanding that I meant the DP lineage source was confirmed.
Too Much Garlic
Master Member
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
Thanks for the clarification. However, still doesn't prove DP didn't mold the original as well. From an earlier thread there was the recounting that they waited for a helmet to arrive, but decided to make their own - so they could have molded the original again (a third time in that helmets life) and this cast we are seeing now is the cast that finally arrived, but then they no longer needed it. Can't recall which of the many threads that tidbit was posted in, but of course... it was refuted by several people right after... because it was about the 4th pull claim.
Thanks for the clarification. However, still doesn't prove DP didn't mold the original as well. From an earlier thread there was the recounting that they waited for a helmet to arrive, but decided to make their own - so they could have molded the original again (a third time in that helmets life) and this cast we are seeing now is the cast that finally arrived, but then they no longer needed it. Can't recall which of the many threads that tidbit was posted in, but of course... it was refuted by several people right after... because it was about the 4th pull claim.
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
To cite politics as a reason for not listening to the prop (or replica) community is just an excuse for letting this continue as an original. I can prove it isn't original, and that has nothing to do with who might agree or disagree with me or who might like or dislike me. If this is original, then my own helmet is original, and that simply is not the case. I know where my helmet came from, so if this has the same source it cannot be original.
Well the consignor certainly is not Shepperton Design Studios, nor did this helmet come from SDS. So if it didn't come from them, then the story sort of falls apart even before it gets to the punchline.
Not only that, they use the photograph of the original ANH mask claiming it was taken at ILM. Wrong. It was taken at Don Post Studios. And I am confident that they do not even have permission to use that photograph.
So? Where is their rigor in terms of determining the validity of the claimed provenance? Just because Don Post or one of his former employees says this is original then PIH believes them?
Both PIH and Christie's are seemingly quite gullible, or too lazy to actually confirm the claims of provenance with individuals that worked on the production. They could easily ask Brian Muir.
To cite politics as a reason for not listening to the prop (or replica) community is just an excuse for letting this continue as an original. I can prove it isn't original, and that has nothing to do with who might agree or disagree with me or who might like or dislike me. If this is original, then my own helmet is original, and that simply is not the case. I know where my helmet came from, so if this has the same source it cannot be original.
Well the consignor certainly is not Shepperton Design Studios, nor did this helmet come from SDS. So if it didn't come from them, then the story sort of falls apart even before it gets to the punchline.
Not only that, they use the photograph of the original ANH mask claiming it was taken at ILM. Wrong. It was taken at Don Post Studios. And I am confident that they do not even have permission to use that photograph.
So? Where is their rigor in terms of determining the validity of the claimed provenance? Just because Don Post or one of his former employees says this is original then PIH believes them?
Both PIH and Christie's are seemingly quite gullible, or too lazy to actually confirm the claims of provenance with individuals that worked on the production. They could easily ask Brian Muir.
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
Like I said, I was able to confirm that DP didn't mold the original. The story about waiting for the original to arrive isn't really the case. Yes the whole fourth pull story is bonkers.
Like I said, I was able to confirm that DP didn't mold the original. The story about waiting for the original to arrive isn't really the case. Yes the whole fourth pull story is bonkers.
Too Much Garlic
Master Member
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
Where did you confirm that?
Look, I'm not trying to be an ass. I'm just not seeing a clear-cut slam-dunk that can make anyone conclude that this is the master for the GH/Fyberdyne line. The likelihood and plausibility is certainly high... but that's not confirmation.
There are just issues with the presented story that puts everything said in the auction text into question and PIH really needs to address that and get their facts straight as their credibility hangs on presenting accurate and researched information, which is just not the case here.
Where did you confirm that?
Look, I'm not trying to be an ass. I'm just not seeing a clear-cut slam-dunk that can make anyone conclude that this is the master for the GH/Fyberdyne line. The likelihood and plausibility is certainly high... but that's not confirmation.
There are just issues with the presented story that puts everything said in the auction text into question and PIH really needs to address that and get their facts straight as their credibility hangs on presenting accurate and researched information, which is just not the case here.
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Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
Again, I can't say if this helmet was the father of the lineage, nor do I know who the consignor is. All I am saying is that DP didn't mold the original...that is all I am saying. So, since this auction helmet seems to have originated from or is a copy of something from the Baker ILM mold, it makes sense that DP didn't mold the original. It seems that something from or related to a casting from the Baker ILM mold was his template, rather than the original ANH helmet, as evidenced by this auction casting if it is indeed from DP Studios from that time. If so, then the GH/Fyberdyne lineage owes itself to the Baker ILM mold rather than the original ANH itself, but that is only a conclusion IF the auction helmet is really a DP template of some kind.
But think of this, who in their right mind would take something like a DJ or SL and make it look sort of like a Fyberdyne and then try to portray it as an original ANH helmet? They would be nuts. By that logic the auction helmet must be a DP template. :lol
Again, I can't say if this helmet was the father of the lineage, nor do I know who the consignor is. All I am saying is that DP didn't mold the original...that is all I am saying. So, since this auction helmet seems to have originated from or is a copy of something from the Baker ILM mold, it makes sense that DP didn't mold the original. It seems that something from or related to a casting from the Baker ILM mold was his template, rather than the original ANH helmet, as evidenced by this auction casting if it is indeed from DP Studios from that time. If so, then the GH/Fyberdyne lineage owes itself to the Baker ILM mold rather than the original ANH itself, but that is only a conclusion IF the auction helmet is really a DP template of some kind.
But think of this, who in their right mind would take something like a DJ or SL and make it look sort of like a Fyberdyne and then try to portray it as an original ANH helmet? They would be nuts. By that logic the auction helmet must be a DP template. :lol
Too Much Garlic
Master Member
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
The same people who did a mirrored stormtrooper.
CSMacLaren
Sr Member
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
The notion that the auction houses may not want to tap into the online community for Vader expertise due to politics is interesting.
As I look back at the last several years, if there is one recurring theme, it's the online clashes arising from people stating things as facts without backing up claims in a verifiable and unambiguous way, to the point that they rush to elevate theory to the status of "fact" or "proof" or "evidence" (or that you have to accept someone's word without them having to state the source of their information).
If those among us with some degree of Vader prop expertise don't see the "slam dunk" evidence (let alone laypersons like those at esteemed auction houses), and the theorists despise their theories not accepted as fact fire back, the resulting disagreement is politics.
If this was truly the reason why the community wasn't consulted - politics - then we sure better change how we discuss things. This "King of the Hill" mentality polarizes the community into a political one, and our net gain is zero. When one individual tries to promote themselves as a sole authority above everyone else, he creates the politics the community never wanted in the first place.
Let's get our act together.
The notion that the auction houses may not want to tap into the online community for Vader expertise due to politics is interesting.
As I look back at the last several years, if there is one recurring theme, it's the online clashes arising from people stating things as facts without backing up claims in a verifiable and unambiguous way, to the point that they rush to elevate theory to the status of "fact" or "proof" or "evidence" (or that you have to accept someone's word without them having to state the source of their information).
If those among us with some degree of Vader prop expertise don't see the "slam dunk" evidence (let alone laypersons like those at esteemed auction houses), and the theorists despise their theories not accepted as fact fire back, the resulting disagreement is politics.
If this was truly the reason why the community wasn't consulted - politics - then we sure better change how we discuss things. This "King of the Hill" mentality polarizes the community into a political one, and our net gain is zero. When one individual tries to promote themselves as a sole authority above everyone else, he creates the politics the community never wanted in the first place.
Let's get our act together.
Too Much Garlic
Master Member
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
Pfft... tree-hugger.
Pfft... tree-hugger.
vaderdarth
Master Member
Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction
Honestly, I like the facemask but not the dome. Something is not sized correctly. That lends less credibility to the authenticity of this helmet. Whatever it may be, it's way overcleaned if you know what I mean. That leaves it being worth no more or less than other fan helmets in my book. It may have lineage, but there is a limit to the cleanup that should be done on these helmets. If someone can show me a single production shot where the vader helmet is missing it's dings and divots........I may change my mind. I just haven't seen them yet. If someone could show me some pre-production photos of the actual pull that became the screen helmet, that would answer all of our questions........but it seems these photos do not exist.
Dave
Honestly, I like the facemask but not the dome. Something is not sized correctly. That lends less credibility to the authenticity of this helmet. Whatever it may be, it's way overcleaned if you know what I mean. That leaves it being worth no more or less than other fan helmets in my book. It may have lineage, but there is a limit to the cleanup that should be done on these helmets. If someone can show me a single production shot where the vader helmet is missing it's dings and divots........I may change my mind. I just haven't seen them yet. If someone could show me some pre-production photos of the actual pull that became the screen helmet, that would answer all of our questions........but it seems these photos do not exist.
Dave
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