50th anniversary doctor who discussion (SPOILERS)

I don't really understand this line of reasoning. At the time, to the Doctor, it was all real. At the time, to the audience, it was all real. That's all that matters.
I also believe, as 10 said, they are CHANGING their history, so everything we've seen to this point was the Doctor dealing with the legitimate destruction of Gallifrey. He even says in the special during the big climax that he's seen the people burning and doesn't want to see it again. But if he always saved Gallifrey, how could he have seen it? Unless at one time he actually did it, and he actually saw it.
I was a little disappointed that 11 had forgotten how many children he killed on Gallifrey. Actually kind of disgusted. But, at the same time, this, "I'm so lonely and sad," thing has been DONE TO DEATH. We've had, what, a hundred episodes and three Doctors worth of it? He needs to move on, but 10 was right, how could you POSSIBLY move on from that and still be a decent person? You really can't.
The Doctor has said that he can't go back and fix the Time War because it was time locked and a fixed point. Now he has the opportunity to go back... and we expect him to kill them all again? Really? His biggest regret, the thing that has tortured him for 400 years, and we really expect him to go through with it again?

Yes. I would rather see the doctor come to terms with what he did than decide that he was right to hate himself for all those years. To decide a second and third time that it was what he needed to do would be a doorway to moving past it. And in my opinion he has been moving on already, you say it's been done to death but I feel like it hardly comes up with 11. Which makes sense, he's removed from the event by three lives at that point. I don't think it makes him a bad person, we all have regrets that we try to let go of with time. He's had 400 years to let go.

Also, I don't understand what you mean with the comment about the Master. How does this have anything to do with that? The Time Lords were time locked and they used the Master to break out. In the process they drove him mad. That plot line was resolved in "the End of Time" and doesn't have anything to do with this.

The Master was driven crazy by the High Council, his entire life was basically ruined from childhood. They did it because their oracle was giving prophecies of their destruction. If they were never destroyed the oracle wouldn't have predicted those things and the Master would be sane. I realize that they're changing history but this is such a HUGE change.

I think it will be great to have the opportunity to explore Gallifrey in future episodes but I hate that they decided to go back and change EVERYTHING.

Avery, I'm with you on Moffat having written some brilliant episodes, but some of his more recent ones have been dreadful. 'The wedding of River Song' was utter nonsense. 'The Angels take Manhattan' had a plot hole that you could have parked a planet in. I'm normally able to overlook the Who plot holes, but this one genuinely ruined that episode for me, which is doubly annoying because it should have been a real special send off for the Ponds. Aside from 'Asylum of the Daleks' and 'The name of the Doctor' his recent ones have either been forgettable or hilariously bad.

I completely agree with you on "Angels Take Manhattan". I wasn't even sort of sad at the end of the episode, I was too frustrated by how much sense it didn't make. However, "Asylum of the Dalek" is also on my list of episodes that don't make sense.

I can live with plot holes, I don't think a story exists that doesn't have at least a couple, let alone a story that spans as much time as Doctor Who. A plot hole has to be pretty significant to detract from the story for me and somehow Moffat has done that pretty often lately.
 
I completely agree with you on "Angels Take Manhattan". I wasn't even sort of sad at the end of the episode, I was too frustrated by how much sense it didn't make. However, "Asylum of the Dalek" is also on my list of episodes that don't make sense.

I can live with plot holes, I don't think a story exists that doesn't have at least a couple, let alone a story that spans as much time as Doctor Who. A plot hole has to be pretty significant to detract from the story for me and somehow Moffat has done that pretty often lately.

I have watched all of Moffat's episodes and have been very disappointed with the direction that the show has gone, the continuing story ark seems to be too overpowering. There were some stand out episodes like "Hide" & "The Power of Three" in series 7, but the majority just felt disposable......I would have no problems watching the RTD episodes, but be hesitant re-running the Moffat shows.

The 50th Anniversary Movie really has refocussed everything, I really cannot complain about anything in it, I'm glad that the Time War guilt thing has been removed, he still has lost his Home planet, so it's not all happy days yet, but now hopefully with a new Doctor, with a new outlook, we can possibly get back to some great adventures, memorable adventures, that aren't tied up in a huge confusing hole filled story ark.

J
 
And my thoughts...very similar to Nick's.

All of time, Time past, Time present and Time future all exist and co-exist on both a linear path and a non-linear path to infinitum. To those beings who exist on a linear path, once the moment has past, it can never be recaptured and only what is now and what lies ahead can be captured.

To a time traveler, there is both a linear path and a non-linear path. Linear would be personal, as in his life time, regardless of to what point he travels, the days of his personal life and time stream are linear and move forward. (If he goes to 1562 on Monday, 1789 on Tuesday, 5631 on Wednesday, he will still personally be 3 days older on Thursday than he was on Monday)

The non-linear path is his ability to travel in time, so that which has happened in the past, is still happeneing and he access it. What hasn't happened yet is also happening and he can access it.

Except the time war!

Since it was time locked, he cannot go into it to prevent it, nor can he now go back to ANY point in Gallifrey's history as it is ALL unaccessable to him. What would stop him from going back to the time of Omega and spelling it all out for him in order to prevent it?

So, the war on Gallifrey, and for that matter all of Gallifrey's history did happen, and is currently running in the same non-linear time stream, however he cannot access it, so it is, in effect, dead! On Gallifrey there is no history past the Time War, as that was when their point in time died and to the universe going forward, they are gone!

To explain further, we know that at one time Dodo birds were on the earth. We could go back in time to visit and see them, but at the point of their extinction we have a stopping point. If we want to see one, we are limited to the time that we can go back to and see them, yet for all intents and purposes, they are still alive and well in that non-linear stream.

Confused? me too.....

But thanks for reading anyway!

This question requires you get into some of the basics of time travel science.

In short: All time coexists, just as all space coexists. Even though we are constantly experiencing time in the "now" that does not mean previous nows don't also still exist even though we can't experience them anymore. It's the same way that a room in your house doesn't cease to exist simply because you locked the door to it and can no longer get in.

Now, because Timelords are time travelers, if the planet had simply been "burned" or destroyed as previous Doctors have mentioned, then there would be nothing to prevent one or all of the Timelords from traveling forward in time to a point after the end of the war and surviving. Since Daleks have the ability to time jump as well, they could then do the same, and the war would rage on, destroying the universe further. The only solution then is to take the series of events (The specific "nows") that make up the Time War and put a sort of fence around them so those within them can no longer get out to try to affect the outcome. This is what the time lock is.

The first shots of the Time War dictate the beginning of the time lock and the moment that Gallifrey ceases to be in this universe (Whether through The Moment or through the Doctors' intervention) dictates the end of the time lock...a fence that contains all of the events. This means that Timelords from the old series, if they happened to be galavanting through space couldn't "accidentally" find the Time War and use their time traveling to try to affect that, they'd simply be unable to access it.

So to answer your question: it's both! The Time War still rages on inside the time lock, even though the planet seems to have been successfully retained in a pocket universe since time is all concurrent, it's only perception that is linear.

...That is the simplest that can really be without really delving into the ideas of directionality/flow in space-time.

-Nick
 
I am really super confused, now. Admittedly, I've only started watching with Eccleston, so my knowledge of the doctor starts there. I've gleaned some information from other posts, but it still doesn't make sense.

But, here's what I have:

1) The Doctor is a time lord, from Galifrey.
2) Everyone on Galifrey is a time lord, which, I guess, means they can all somehow manipulate time and regenerate.
3) The Doctor has a real birth name.
4) The Doctor, is an adopted persona, much like Superman would be Kal El's adopted persona
5) During "The time war", the Doctor blew up Galifrey, in order to save the universe, from the Daleks.
6) That incident drove the doctor to become The Doctor - a "savior of humanity", of sorts

Now here is where it gets confusing

1) Now, John Hurt's doctor, doctor 8, is the one who blew up Galifrey.
2) That means, to me, that doctors 1-7 didn't have the same motivation to save humanity, as Doctors 9-11. For them, it could have been a hobby, like the people that work in homeless shelters, once a year.
3) Thanks to the ret-con, #8 didn't blow up Galifrey, meaning later doctors didn't have to live with the guilt of what they did, meaning they may have never gone and did the things they did. It should have re-written every single thing they did after that event in time.
4) If it's the 8th doctor that blew up the world, the council could have been aware of his 7 previous incarnations. But at the end, they knew all 13 were him - how? If they went kablooie after #8, how the heck did they know about the rest?


If anyone could give a linear explanation of what I'm missing, it would be greatly appreciated. I've tried reading up on it, but it just seems to be a jumbled mess of people tying together whatever events they feel like, while leaving out others.

-Fred
 
9-10-11 don't remember they saved Gallifrey during their normal timeline, with the exception of 11 who learns of it in "Day of the Doctor" so the angst is still there, the original motivations, etc.
 
Point 6 is in error.
Ending the time war isn't what made the Doctor into who he is. He ran away after stealing a Tardis, way back in his first incarnation. He's always been at odds with the Time Lords' policy of non-interference. He believes that Time and Space should be actively explored, and that peoples and worlds are worth saving. He's always been a renegade.
 
Point 6 is in error.
Ending the time war isn't what made the Doctor into who he is. He ran away after stealing a Tardis, way back in his first incarnation. He's always been at odds with the Time Lords' policy of non-interference. He believes that Time and Space should be actively explored, and that peoples and worlds are worth saving. He's always been a renegade.

Well, it certainly forged the man we've come to know since the series returned in 2005.
 
This question requires you get into some of the basics of time travel science.

In short: All time coexists, just as all space coexists. Even though we are constantly experiencing time in the "now" that does not mean previous nows don't also still exist even though we can't experience them anymore. It's the same way that a room in your house doesn't cease to exist simply because you locked the door to it and can no longer get in.

Now, because Timelords are time travelers, if the planet had simply been "burned" or destroyed as previous Doctors have mentioned, then there would be nothing to prevent one or all of the Timelords from traveling forward in time to a point after the end of the war and surviving. Since Daleks have the ability to time jump as well, they could then do the same, and the war would rage on, destroying the universe further. The only solution then is to take the series of events (The specific "nows") that make up the Time War and put a sort of fence around them so those within them can no longer get out to try to affect the outcome. This is what the time lock is.

The first shots of the Time War dictate the beginning of the time lock and the moment that Gallifrey ceases to be in this universe (Whether through The Moment or through the Doctors' intervention) dictates the end of the time lock...a fence that contains all of the events. This means that Timelords from the old series, if they happened to be galavanting through space couldn't "accidentally" find the Time War and use their time traveling to try to affect that, they'd simply be unable to access it.

So to answer your question: it's both! The Time War still rages on inside the time lock, even though the planet seems to have been successfully retained in a pocket universe since time is all concurrent, it's only perception that is linear.

...That is the simplest that can really be without really delving into the ideas of directionality/flow in space-time.

-Nick
Ok well I'm not really sure that this really answers my confusion. Although for the record I don't think I properly explained my confusion. I understand that if something is stuck in a time lock they are sort of both dead and alive. The part that confuses me is that until now is the the words they had been choosing whenever they mention the time war make it seem like he mearly prevented them from escaping their fate. Like taking to tigers and sticking them in same cage, You know they are going to kill each other but your not actually killing them yourself. But this suggests that he not only sealed their fate, he pulled the trigger. So I am confused. did he first seal their fate, then later as John Hurt he killed them? Or was that big red button supposed to be the timelock that we already know about? And if it is the timelock, would pushing it have killed everyone instantly, or locked them in a space where they would kill themselves naturally?
 
Ok well I'm not really sure that this really answers my confusion. Although for the record I don't think I properly explained my confusion. I understand that if something is stuck in a time lock they are sort of both dead and alive. The part that confuses me is that until now is the the words they had been choosing whenever they mention the time war make it seem like he mearly prevented them from escaping their fate. Like taking to tigers and sticking them in same cage, You know they are going to kill each other but your not actually killing them yourself. But this suggests that he not only sealed their fate, he pulled the trigger. So I am confused. did he first seal their fate, then later as John Hurt he killed them? Or was that big red button supposed to be the timelock that we already know about? And if it is the timelock, would pushing it have killed everyone instantly, or locked them in a space where they would kill themselves naturally?

The time lock is the cage the tigers are in, the Moment would have been a stick of dynamite thrown into the cage. It's not clear if the Doctor put the tigers in the cage, but he did think he'd thrown in a stick of dynamite.
 
"The interface is HOT!"

"Well, I do my best."

Just catching up. I liked the episode, loved it the 2nd time.
Hurt killed it in the comic relief category.
Using Billie Piper as an OS was brilliant.
The Curator cameo was really touching.

If there's one negative, it's that Eccleston's absence is felt throughout. Not just in the regen scene - which was a glaringly crappy cutaway. You could tell the whole ep was originally written as "The Four Doctors" with Hurt being visited by the 3 Ghosts. Too bad.

All in all, couldn't be happier.

TONS of hidden gems sprinkled throughout. And the Cromer report from the Three Doctors was a nice nod.

"Adventure in Space & Time" destroyed "Day of the Doctor" in the emotional impact category though. :)
 
Saw it in the theatre last night. LOVED it.

Some cheesy moments? Sure. Bad CG (I'm looking at you ending shot of all the doctors together)? Yep. Things I could nitpick in the plot? Hell ya.

But it was awesome. I want a series about the Time War now. That was pretty bad ass.

Looking forward to Capaldi!!!
 
The extra stuff they put before and after the theatrical showing was nice, helped it feel not so short. Really loved the Matt/David part at the beginning.
 
But, here's what I have:

1) The Doctor is a time lord, from Galifrey.

YES

2) Everyone on Galifrey is a time lord, which, I guess, means they can all somehow manipulate time and regenerate.

No. Only a select few are Time Lords. And then they have to study to become full blown Time Lords.

3) The Doctor has a real birth name.

Yes

4) The Doctor, is an adopted persona, much like Superman would be Kal El's adopted persona

On becoming a fully qualified Time Lord. They choose a name. Usually a title beginning with 'The'

5) During "The time war", the Doctor blew up Galifrey, in order to save the universe, from the Daleks.

And the Time Lords

6) That incident drove the doctor to become The Doctor - a "savior of humanity", of sorts

No, he was The Doctor centuries before the Time War, and probably started it all during Genesis of the Daleks.


Now here is where it gets confusing

1) Now, John Hurt's doctor, doctor 8, is the one who blew up Galifrey.

Yes

2) That means, to me, that doctors 1-7 didn't have the same motivation to save humanity, as Doctors 9-11. For them, it could have been a hobby, like the people that work in homeless shelters, once a year.

Yes, it his nature to be altruistic. But more a life choice than a hobby.

3) Thanks to the ret-con, #8 didn't blow up Galifrey, meaning later doctors didn't have to live with the guilt of what they did, meaning they may have never gone and did the things they did. It should have re-written every single thing they did after that event in time.

No, Doctors 9 and 10 and even Eleven up until this incident didn't remember it as being saved, and indeed thought Hurt's Doctor had blown them all to bits. Only Eleven retained the memory of events.

4) If it's the 8th doctor that blew up the world, the council could have been aware of his 7 previous incarnations. But at the end, they knew all 13 were him - how? If they went kablooie after #8, how the heck did they know about the rest?

They are Time Lords. They don't view time as we do. The future is as much a reality as the past. Also, all the future Doctors where also present during the event at that time and the Time Lords where watching them in real time.
 
And, I choose to believe that Tom's cameo as The Curator is actually letting us know that he is still The Doctor.

Am I you? or Are you me? Does it even matter? (Not a direct quote)

I am going back to Logopolis here, his regeneration was like none before or afterwards. The Watcher was with him the whole story line and at one point, he walked over to him and had a conversation with him, then came back and pretty much knew his fate.

Queen Elizabeth made The Doctor, The Curator of the dark vault.....

During the conversation with The Watcher, The Doctor was told about his personal future, the Watcher, (Who was a 'blank' slate entity) at the point of regeneration would step in and absorb 4's 'death' and replace him, redirecting the regenerative energy through himself, while also causing a seperation from 4, and carry it out to the 5th incarnation.

4 was 'carried off' and given the new personna of The Curator, and has existed as such for as long as his current life has carried him.

So, it WAS the 4th Doctor, just as 11 had suspected, but could not figure out how.

That is what I choose to believe...it's all very timey whimey!
 
Its also important to remember that Steven Moffat didn't invent the Time War aftermath scenario, that was RTD, Moffat simply had to carry on from that, when he took over as show runner. And I think he has done well to at least now attempt to move past it and take the show in a different direction, namely, the direction of Gallifrey
 
Just realized that this was another episode illustrating WHY the Doctor needs a companion, and to some degree has a similar beat to " The Beast Below." His intention to lobotomize the space whale and his intention to use the Moment to destroy Gallifrey both were the best solution he saw to a "the needs of the many" problem and it took a human companion to really push the idea that there was a better way. War Doctor didn't have a companion, a consequence of participating in the Time War, but that also cost him his conscience for when he needed it most. Ten was in his "I don't want to die yet" companion-free phase during the specials, when he was getting high on himself with the "Time Lord victorious" schtick so he was lacking a moral compass as well. Eleven had gotten over most of the guilt to the point where he probably didn't even consider there was an alternative until Clara got on him about it.

It's something that I didn't pick up on while viewing it, but it's another example of why the Doctor needs a companion to reign him in and to provide another viewpoint. As amazing as what the Doctors did to save Gallifrey is, it wouldn't have happened if not for Clara.
 
4) The Doctor, is an adopted persona, much like Superman would be Kal El's adopted persona

On becoming a fully qualified Time Lord. They choose a name. Usually a title beginning with 'The'

Like. The Rassilon, The Omega, The Castellan, The Andred, and my personal favorite. The Romana........

Actualy, The Doctor, The Master and The Rani are the only 'The's' in Timelord society that I can remember.
 
"The Doctor's Wife" also gave us The Corsair.

Also, to clarify from earlier, Hurt is not 8, he's technically 9 (or 8.5 if you don't want to fubar the official numbering). Paul McGann was 8.
 
This thread is more than 10 years old.

Your message may be considered spam for the following reasons:

  1. This thread hasn't been active in some time. A new post in this thread might not contribute constructively to this discussion after so long.
If you wish to reply despite these issues, check the box below before replying.
Be aware that malicious compliance may result in more severe penalties.
Back
Top