Paul Andrew
Master Member
Don't be THAT guy...
Rey's terrible very bad Lightsaber skills: Star Wars
- Thread starter CWDevine
- Start date
Zuiun
Sr Member
No one questioned whether or not Finn was acting heroic in that moment.
The issue is the notion that a lightsaber is apparently so difficult to use that unless you are SPECIFICALLY TRAINED in it, it makes no sense for anyone to be able to use it. And yet, Finn, with zero training in the lightsaber whatsoever, picks it up and actually does pretty ok against Kylo Ren,
And you seem to be totally fine with Finn's Stormtrooper training translating over to lightsaber skills...
Solo4114
Master Member
Space janitor stormtrooper training. Let's be precise, please.
Also, training we never actually see. But still, presumably not in lightsabre combat.
CWDevine
Legendary Member
I've expressed all I've needed to say.
End results are Rey is a "Mary-Sue.
Abrams and Johnson are very poor writers.
I will not be seeing the "final' episode of SW.
Zuiun
Sr Member
And once again, so by concluding that Rey is a Mary Sue, do you apply the Gary Stu label to Luke?
Because if you don't, then just go ahead and admit that your position is not based on any sort of logic or consistency, but just that you have a problem with Rey.
CWDevine
Legendary Member
Whether the matter concerns SW or any other movies, I will always have a problem with poor writing. It's just a shame that SW has to be a victim of this.
Zuiun
Sr Member
That's not an answer to the question. If you are upset that the film doesn't adequately explain how Rey is so skilled, then you must be similarly upset with how Luke is portrayed. Would this be correct? Or do you apply a double standard?
It's a really simple question.
CWDevine
Legendary Member
Oh, your question has been answered. Actually several questions have been answered, as well as provided proof of certain claims. Rey a poor version of Luke. I actually like the idea of Rey being next in line, but she's too poorly written. Luke has enough information and gravity, to be the person he is. But you and others fail to see that.
Zuiun
Sr Member
You're fine with having a double standard. Gotcha. That's all you needed to say.
Lightning
Master Member
It's really more a matter of timing than anything else. Luke first mentions he's good pilot to Han in the first act, and we see his T-16 in the garage before that (though it needs to be pointed out for anyone to notice on screen) then it's brought up again in the Womp Rat conversation, and then in the special edition Biggs scene. On top of all that we know Luke's father was an excellent pilot. Rey says she can fly while they are approaching the ship. It's a much more abrupt revelation, with no groundwork laid beforehand. Exactly the sort of lazy storytelling you'd get in a fanfiction.
Solo4114
Master Member
Yeah, because you haven't actually made your case that she's materially different from Luke. You've tried to, but your arguments rely on double standards.
Rey gets "unearned" powers? Cool. So does Luke.
Rey's just "good at everything"? Yup. So's Luke. (So's Finn for that matter, whom you've generally ignored in your criticisms.)
Your position isn't backed up with anything concrete, because it can't be applied consistently. You're claiming Rey is a Mary Sue for things that you're giving Luke a pass for, then arguing that she's a poor version of Luke. You can't articulate a clear reason why Luke's abilities are somehow more "earned" than Rey's and that's because there is no reason why. They're the same in terms of having earned their abilities. Either both are Mary Sues, or both have earned them just fine.
Seriously, man. Stop and ask yourself what it is about Rey that makes her actions stand out in the film to you, but you just kinda ignore Finn. Think about why when you watch ANH, you just kind of sit back and passively accept what's happening on screen, but when you watch TFA, you think "WTF? How come she can do that?" It's not just "bad writing." It's not that Luke "earned" his abilities but Rey didn't. It's something else.
If you took issue with Finn's abilities as well as Rey's, I'd think it was something related to pacing in TFA (because I think TFA suffers from really poor pacing, with a TON of stuff happening way too quickly and information not having time to register and sink in with the audience).
But you give Finn a pass, too.
Finn, the space janitor, who's able to use a lightsabre, a shock baton, shoot a gun, navigate his way through First Order starships and facilities and tell you how to shut down this or that mechanical function. The guy who escaped the First Order on his first and only combat mission, but who's able to take out Captain Phasma and hold his own -- however briefly -- against Kylo Ren. Mary Sue? Nope. Not that anyone seems to care about, anyway. He was a coward who redeemed himself, and that's about all you've had to say on Finn. Nothing about his "unearned" abilities.
Luke gets a pass. He's not a Mary Sue.
Finn gets a pass. He's not a Mary Sue either.
Rey gets taken to task and is a Mary Sue.
And you have to rely on a double standard to reach that conclusion.
Does anyone here who has trained in martial arts with weapons know of any practitioner who only knows one weapon? Just about everyone I know has practiced with more than one kind - even if they favor one weapon. If their proficiency was in, say, the Chinese broadsword they will have studied at least some spear, long staff etc.
And while Kylo may have had some formal training that doesn't mean he's been in a lot of actual duels. I don't recall dueling being a necessary rite of passage for any Jedi. But I think it's safe to say that Rey has been in a number of actual street fights. And I don't know that Kylo's training wasn't skewed towards force powers than dueling - I mean, look at the janky lightsaber he built.
And while Kylo may have had some formal training that doesn't mean he's been in a lot of actual duels. I don't recall dueling being a necessary rite of passage for any Jedi. But I think it's safe to say that Rey has been in a number of actual street fights. And I don't know that Kylo's training wasn't skewed towards force powers than dueling - I mean, look at the janky lightsaber he built.
JPH
Sr Member
In ANH Obi Wan actually tells luke, " I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself."
Luke gets an explanation of the Force, gets an additional tutorial in the Millenium Falcon while *also* learninf to deflect lasers while blind. Gets hit a few times in the process, but eventually, with coaching, gets it. Luke says he can almost see the training sphere with his eyes closed! He didnt just magically get there. He was guided.
EDIT: Blowing up the Death Star Obi wan does it again speaking to him from the dead for his one in a million shot. Luke was awakened and guided through the process.
Vs
Rey has never flown anything, trained on a simulator, hitting TIE fighters with blind shots from the millenium falcon's locked turret. As if the simulator had a setting for "locked belly turret, blibg shot" mode.
Kylo knocks Rey out with the wave of his hand in one scene. The next scene Rey is reading Kylo's mind!
Not just blocking Kylo. Kylo, related to Luke, trained by Luke.
Rey out force pulls a lightsaber over kylo. Luke was able to, with alot of trouble, pull a lightsaber 3 feet EDIT : in the wompa cave. He didnt have seasoned Kylo as competition EDIT: fighting over the same weapon.
So yes, Rey is a Mary Sue, given significantly greater skills than Luke without any guidance.
Luke gets an explanation of the Force, gets an additional tutorial in the Millenium Falcon while *also* learninf to deflect lasers while blind. Gets hit a few times in the process, but eventually, with coaching, gets it. Luke says he can almost see the training sphere with his eyes closed! He didnt just magically get there. He was guided.
EDIT: Blowing up the Death Star Obi wan does it again speaking to him from the dead for his one in a million shot. Luke was awakened and guided through the process.
Vs
Rey has never flown anything, trained on a simulator, hitting TIE fighters with blind shots from the millenium falcon's locked turret. As if the simulator had a setting for "locked belly turret, blibg shot" mode.
Kylo knocks Rey out with the wave of his hand in one scene. The next scene Rey is reading Kylo's mind!
Not just blocking Kylo. Kylo, related to Luke, trained by Luke.
Rey out force pulls a lightsaber over kylo. Luke was able to, with alot of trouble, pull a lightsaber 3 feet EDIT : in the wompa cave. He didnt have seasoned Kylo as competition EDIT: fighting over the same weapon.
So yes, Rey is a Mary Sue, given significantly greater skills than Luke without any guidance.
Solo4114
Master Member
This gets at something I see as an underlying flaw that permeates TFA, actually. Information in TFA is introduced at a breakneck pace and doesn't have time to really register with the audience. As a result, it's both easy to forget this or that detail and you end up feeling like not enough has been explained. So, yes, technically both Luke and Rey just talk about their abilities flying, and never actually demonstrate it until they're in the cockpit. But the difference in terms of introducing that information to the audience is as you describe: we're given a bunch of points at which Luke's flying ability is referenced (although his fathers' ability is irrelevant to his own). Obi-Wan says he hears Luke's a good pilot. Luke says he's a good pilot when he meets Han. Luke references his piloting in the Death Star briefing. And in the SE, Biggs talks up Luke's piloting abilities, too. Only after all of that do we see Luke fly.
By contrast, we literally get the information about Rey on the run, and then 10 seconds later she's flying.
The same information has been imparted to the audience, and it holds the same value, but the audience believes one more than the other because it's had time to process and digest that information. We have no reason to believe one more than the other except that the information has been reinforced and allowed to simmer in one case, but not the other.
None of that makes Rey a Mary Sue, though. It is, however, very bad pacing.
There are similar issues with TFA about...well, really about a ton of stuff. How did the First Order rise? Who the hell is Snoke? What are the Knights of Ren and are they served by the Squires of Stimpy? Why does Lor San Tekka (whose name is never even said in the film) have info on Luke? What's the difference between the Republic and the Resistance, and why does it seem like only the Resistance has any weapons?
Sorry! There isn't time to explain any of this! We have rathtars loose on the ship! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!
All of this stuff, I think, goes back to JJ not letting his story breathe, or intentionally withholding information to create a "mystery" about it. In the few slower moments that the film does have, they aren't using it to impart information, but rather to seed questions (e.g. at Maz's castle, which just introduces a ton of questions about Rey and her past). And then, EXPLOSIONS!!!! CHAOS!!! LASER BLASTS!!!! And we're on to the next roller coaster ride.
That, to me, is the really sloppy storytelling in TFA. Not the stuff about why Rey is good with a lightsabre. She's good because of the same reason Luke is: she's strong in the Force and the Force guides her. Well, that and she's a hero in a movie franchise where heroes are just really good at stuff.
JPH
Sr Member
Exactly, like Felix the cat or Monty Hall, you need this skill/item, oh! I got it. Even Neo needed the program downloaded first.
mattycsi
Master Member
Rey's prowess as a fighter is set up in TFA as equally proficiently as Luke's pilot ability in ANH. Its all right there on screen, no need for any EU backstory to bolster either.
Ability to fight with a staff is very much a transferable skill that applies to other melee weapons such as swords.
I fully believe that Rey is a competent fighter, in universe. The problem is that in TLJ the choreography was so bad it tarnished the illusion. I mean, bad to the point they had to digitize out the fact she actually get stabbed by one of the spinning guards. Those guys musta been too dizzy to fight!
TFA set her character up very well, the short time leap to TLJ and reluctance to develop her further in any way really damaged her and the franchise.
Ability to fight with a staff is very much a transferable skill that applies to other melee weapons such as swords.
I fully believe that Rey is a competent fighter, in universe. The problem is that in TLJ the choreography was so bad it tarnished the illusion. I mean, bad to the point they had to digitize out the fact she actually get stabbed by one of the spinning guards. Those guys musta been too dizzy to fight!
TFA set her character up very well, the short time leap to TLJ and reluctance to develop her further in any way really damaged her and the franchise.
