Willie Scott Bridge outfit / bead research

[AJLoCascio]

The reliefs on the charms look, to me, to be a monkey inside a spade shape over a vase with some kind of flower in it. A lotus, perhaps? It is the national flower of India and works with the motif. I can vaguely make out the details of petals on a few of them. It could just be three round shapes with holes in them. Without better photos, who can say?

The second belt made with connectors is likely a leaf pattern in the center of two hook loops. It's raised on top of them and the loop for the bells, too. I have some spare metal at the moment, as well as some quick molding supplies. I may just sculpt a few pieces to cast just to see how they turn out, if I can figure a rough size estimate to these. 25 to 30 mm?

The larger bead in question also look to be die cut and the patterns stamped onto it afterwards, possibly by hand. They're all over the place per bead.

lol I don't see a monkey! But that's the beauty of these things it becomes a Rorschach test at a certain fidelity. It looks to me like a simple 4 petal flower inside a slightly rough spade. There is a texture to the elements the STL I made doesn't capture. I'd have to go into Nomad and sculpt that.

The second belt definitely has a leaf pattern on top of the side loops and bottom for the bells. I would love to see what you came up with!!!!

I did some measuring and I estimated that the flowers on her dress are 8mm and after comparing the flowers to the belt loops I estimate about 22-24 mm. That is a wild guess based on the flower beads I bought.

And yeah those patterns are SO wonky - they are wildly inconstant!

Here is a weird reference I cobbled together comparing the flower bead to the belt thing:

General reference:

 

[AJLoCascio]

These are the flowers I bought:

 

[PoopaPapaPalps]

This is what I see. I think it's a monkey but it very well could be a cat (though a monkey feels more appropriate). Whatever it is, it looks to me like an animal with a tail sitting on its hind legs.

I originally thought it may have been two separate stamps used but the ridges on either side of the larger charm/bead look to be indentations of one stamp. It's not consistent between all of the beads, both orientation and fidelity of detail, so it leads me to believe that it was hand stamped. Not that machine stamps don't have variations too but nothing to this extent.

 

[Lightning]

I agree the flowers have "petals", that is to say the circles are bumpy. But I don't see the Monkey, looks like 5 dots to me.

 

[AJLoCascio]

This is what I see. I think it's a monkey but it very well could be a cat (though a monkey feels more appropriate). Whatever it is, it looks to me like an animal with a tail sitting on its hind legs.

I originally thought it may have been two separate stamps used but the ridges on either side of the larger charm/bead look to be indentations of one stamp. It's not consistent between all of the beads, both orientation and fidelity of detail, so it leads me to believe that it was hand stamped. Not that machine stamps don't have variations too but nothing to this extent.

I totally can see a monkey in the top left one, but in some of the others it just looks like 4 petals and a dot, but that is the joy of this kind of insanity. "You take only what you bring with you."

THAT SAID - I really appreciate your help and enthusiasm - this is not exactly a common prop or super loved character so having other folks help and chime in is greatly appreciated!!

I agree the flowers have "petals", that is to say the circles are bumpy. But I don't see the Monkey, looks like 5 dots to me.

I totally see the bumpy petals now! in the three donut flowers. And yeah my brain sees 5 dots. The dress is blue.

 

[greenmachines]

This is what I see. I think it's a monkey but it very well could be a cat (though a monkey feels more appropriate). Whatever it is, it looks to me like an animal with a tail sitting on its hind legs.

I originally thought it may have been two separate stamps used but the ridges on either side of the larger charm/bead look to be indentations of one stamp. It's not consistent between all of the beads, both orientation and fidelity of detail, so it leads me to believe that it was hand stamped. Not that machine stamps don't have variations too but nothing to this extent.

View attachment 1893824

awesome closeups.

On this bottom right leaf, I see two veins to the left and three to the right but because of the way it is stamped/hammered from behind, the veins are not the accent but rather the depression between the veins:

The very top is only an outline and not fully punched flat.

There is a second version you are showing that raises the leave separate from the bottom circle. So there are two designs in her chain that are very similar but not exact:

One has a smooth transition between leaf and lower loop the other has a clear edge. I would have assumed they were the same tool with different force used when punching but they do have different veins with the ledge version having equal veins at the top while the other was staggered at the top.

On the upper large piece, deffinitely 3 ruddy rings on short stalks in a triangle. I offer the coconut donut as my reference:

I am in the five dots camp on the monkey area. Looks like one ball sitting on 4 like when you stack cannon balls. The upside down heart is also ruddy like the 3 rings, not smooth like the five balls.

On the 3 donut rings, they are first punched from the back but each contains one perfect round ball punch in from the front and it does not look centered but might be just lighting. The stalks to each ring vary per piece where some are symmetrical and some are not.

 

[greenmachines]

I agree the flowers have "petals", that is to say the circles are bumpy. But I don't see the Monkey, looks like 5 dots to me.

The closeups make it look like the petal work on the 3 donut flowers (on the triangle) are the work of a fine point applied around 50 times at the discretion of the engraver (from the back) to form a rough circular flower. Thinking of what would happen with a vibrating etcher engraving pen tool but old school. Afterword, one punch is added from the front with a ball head punch, making the perfect bowl imprint in each "flower".

Having this idea of the tools used, I would say the three rings, the stalks down to the triangle and the heart shape above are all made using a fine point vibrating pen or similar hand technique but the five balls at top and the reverse center of each of the 3 lower flowers are perfect ball head punches. The triangle looks pretty consistent, so maybe a triangle shaped punch and not 100 fine point vibrating punches but that could be up to the skill level of the person engraving.

 

[AJLoCascio]

awesome closeups.

On this bottom right leaf, I see two veins to the left and three to the right but because of the way it is stamped/hammered from behind, the veins are not the accent but rather the depression between the veins:

View attachment 1893849View attachment 1893848

The very top is only an outline and not fully punched flat.

There is a second version you are showing that raises the leave separate from the bottom circle. So there are two designs in her chain that are very similar but not exact:

One has a smooth transition between leaf and lower loop the other has a clear edge. I would have assumed they were the same tool with different force used when punching but they do have different veins with the ledge version having equal veins at the top while the other was staggered at the top.

View attachment 1893851

On the upper large piece, deffinitely 3 ruddy rings on short stalks in a triangle. I offer the coconut donut as my reference:

View attachment 1893852


I am in the five dots camp on the monkey area. Looks like one ball sitting on 4 like when you stack cannon balls. The upside down heart is also ruddy like the 3 rings, not smooth like the five balls.

On the 3 donut rings, they are first punched from the back but each contains one perfect round ball punch in from the front and it does not look centered but might be just lighting. The stalks to each ring vary per piece where some are symmetrical and some are not.

View attachment 1893857

Wowowowowowowowo - this is awesome! Particularly the idea of someone hammering this from behind! That makes PERFECT Sense! Now that you say it is hammered with a wee needle I can see that actually on one or two of the little "vase" triangles"

I did a quick adjustment in nomad to accommodate that:

And regarding the Leaf link I saw that too! I thought it was just a trick of the light! I don't want to get TOO insane so may just choose one of the designs. This is already bananas! Thanks for your thoughts and work!!!

 

[PoopaPapaPalps]

I think this all looks like it came from one punch. Too many tools for that many links would lead to a great more variation between each print. The patterns all seem to be roughly equidistant from another and bear mostly similar placement and details, just wildly off-center and some look harder punched then others. I don't see the reverse round punch for the inside of each petal. It looks like a divot in each to me. They might have had a tool underneath with a reverse to get cleaner details, though. Ridges in the spade shape and checkered diamond patterns on the vase, it looks like.

Totally agree with you now about the veins not being an accent but indentations. Some look to have even been punched a couple times to get it to etch, leading to some being more flat than others, maybe?

If the group doesn't see the monkey, then it's not a monkey. It may just be another flower or something.

EDIT, these also look fairly thick pieces. I think that's why all are so asymmetric if it's a stamped piece; the punching just pushes and splays the material across, like how ancient coins were minted.

 

[greenmachines]

Actually, I do see variations between pieces. The 3 flowers have different heads on several and the stalks to the flowers are different on each piece, sometimes perfectly centered and other times missing the mark. I would actually say I don't see two that match. In one photo we see what would be impossible to do with a master single stamp where a portion is missing but the impression leading up to the missing part is deeply impressed. Missing portions of a single stamp can only be explained by a very shallow impression that gradually slopes down to the missing area. These are just sections that stop abruptly and begin again a few dots further:

The hearts are not only incomplete in the two on the left but the shape of the arc on both don't even match each other.

 

[PoopaPapaPalps]

Possibly a combination of different dies made by different artisans (or same) for a team to mass produce and variations happening between the same used dies. They're not numerous but there are a number of die-identical roman coins out there but details are missing or different between the two coins, and not always from use and erosion.

To me, they just look too close to one another for it to be a multitude of tools for one or even a team to make, especially how many of these links had to be made. I can believe a small team with slightly different dies stamping these things, though.

 

[Lightning]

What material are these made of? The lighting in the Museum exhibit makes all the close ups yellow so it looks like brass, but it's silver in the movie. So if they aren't stamped brass, what are they? Actual silver? Nickel Plated brass?

 

[AJLoCascio]

What material are these made of? The lighting in the Museum exhibit makes all the close ups yellow so it looks like brass, but it's silver in the movie. So if they aren't stamped brass, what are they? Actual silver? Nickel Plated brass?

That I don’t know! It must be soft if it can be hammered into. I wonder if there is a way to order a die off of Etsy almost like a wax seal die, and stamp out some of these.

 

[PoopaPapaPalps]

What material are these made of? The lighting in the Museum exhibit makes all the close ups yellow so it looks like brass, but it's silver in the movie. So if they aren't stamped brass, what are they? Actual silver? Nickel Plated brass?

The photos we're using to figure details looks to be under yellow light so the whole costume and accessories look yellow, too. I think these are all silver in actuality to match with the rest of the costume pieces, based on the few photos of it in public. These could possibly be made from silver or tin.

I was just considering about sculpting, molding, and casting these things conventionally in pewter, but now I'm giving serious thought to casting a die just to test all these ideas.

 

[AJLoCascio]

Okay. Call me crazy. But I think I found some of the shapes when looking up vintage Indian die stamps...

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[greenmachines]

Okay. Call me crazy. But I think I found some of the shapes when looking up vintage Indian die stamps...

View attachment 1894021. View attachment 1894022. View attachment 1894023

That triangle is definitely legit. The five ball stack must be one as well as it is just too perfect each time it appears (like the triangle). Some of these would either be front and back work (perfect ball in the middle of the spurry looking flower) or the front punch with back die like those coin makers shown in the video. Very likely a combination of technique. Can you share your search terms and process? My searchs were seriously hampered by the stupid use of "indian" for American Indian art. I swear I want to punch Columbus every time I am looking for India anything and I get all American native art.

 

[AJLoCascio]

lol

That triangle is definitely legit. The five ball stack must be one as well as it is just too perfect each time it appears (like the triangle). Some of these would either be front and back work (perfect ball in the middle of the spurry looking flower) or the front punch with back die like those coin makers shown in the video. Very likely a combination of technique. Can you share your search terms and process? My searchs were seriously hampered by the stupid use of "indian" for American Indian art. I swear I want to punch Columbus every time I am looking for India anything and I get all American native art.

Here are the terms I used: in diffrent combinations:

India Bronze Jewelry Dye Mold antique brass

Here are some other pics of listings that lead me down this path:

 

[AJLoCascio]

Spotted more familiar shapes in these antique brass stamps from India. Most of these are from heritagecollectible on Etsy.

At least the idea of vintage die's is turning up some shape-confirming finds! Have'nt found the leaf or any sort of punch for the unique outer shape.

I'm having way too much fun.

 

[greenmachines]

Thank you!! So, the rabbit hole....

The craft and tools are named after the region of the style's origin Pembarthi (pembarthy) Metal Crafts (mainly sheet):

Pembarthi Metal Crafts A Journey into Timeless Techniques​

The rich heritage of Pembarthi metal crafts and Learn about the traditional methods, unique designs, and the skilled artisans.

travellerkaka.com

Literally pounding from both sides but also sometimes using prepared, fully articulated, punches (image on the head of the punch) and other times using prepared dies (depending on the direction of work, front or back) that require impression tools with varying size ball and point heads (see tray full of points above) to impress into the dies. Oddly, it seems rare, to non existent, to use matching die and stamp as were used in the rest of the world. Instead, the work is done from one side at a time with the other side being supported by a soft but firm surface, leather or pitch ball (not that I understand but am just relaying the article).

The French terms took over from here, chasing and repousse, meaning back then front or "one way, then countering", like in a sword duel.

Chasing and Repoussé Techniques for Beginners - The Bench​

Are you new to the chasing and repoussé technique? Find out everything you need to know - what it is and how to do it - in our blog. Discover more today.

www.cooksongold.com

In this article, it explains in extreme detail the tools and the processes. After looking here and then looking back at the Pembarthi articles, much of the tools and stands, make a lot more sense. Chisels were used for engraving but also for cutting out the final pieces.

With these search terms in hand, it should be a slam dunk to finding scores more.

 

[greenmachines]

One descriptive article on the other jewelry (not plate work)

Types of Indian Jewelry and How to Wear Them | Jewelry Guide

Indian jewelry is distinct, elaborate, and unique. Here’s a look at the most prominent varieties of Indian accessories and how to wear them.

www.jewelryshoppingguide.com