Villains Cast in new Batman Movie: "The Dark Knight Rises"
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Paul Andrew
Master Member
Personally I'd have preferred the riddler... but I'm good with these choices. So, I win! :lol
CB2001
Master Member
But if that's the case, then your perception differs depending on how you see the Joker. Much like the Rei Toei character from William Gibson's Bridge trilogy. Basically, the Joker you had in mind is a personality construct that differs from how other people see the Joker, including the Joker himself. Why else do you think that some people think that Ledger's Joker is the best, while others say that Nicholson's Joker is the best, or Hamill's Joker is the best or Romero's version of Joker is the best? Because it differs depending on the point of view. The same is true with the comics and video game versions of the Joker as well. So, you imagined the Joker to be a certain way and became disappointed when it wasn't.
Again, it's like the Catwoman discussion we all were having earlier. I personally don't think Anne Hathaway is capable of pulling off both the Selina Kyle and Catwoman sides of the role due to the details presented from the comics, while someone else stated that she'd be perfect for the role.
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Jannix Quinn
Sr Member
Yes that's what i just said.
CB2001
Master Member
Okay. So, it's just the Rei Toei effect.
darthgordon
Sr Member
Well first... that's the Joker (character). Whenever he appears in a story, he steals the show. In the comics he's in, many of them devote more panels to the Joker. In 89, the Joker got more screen time. In TDK, people just loved the Joker. He's been used so many times in the comics that for a while, it was almost over saturated.
People love the Joker and they love to hate the Joker. He's both funny and scary at the same time... yet not in a corny Freddy Krueger kind of way. He's got a magnetic personality.
The same could be said for how many Jokers you saw in 89.
I'd also like to point out that the TDK Batman armor is both expensive and intricate to replicate. While TDK Joker isn't exactly cheap (and depending just how far you go with it, can be very expensive) 90% of your Jokers out there get away with either just lousy face-paint or Rubies get-up... and John Q. Public doesn't really know the difference.
As for Ledger's award nomination... well, I'm sorry, but I found his performance to be good and entertaining... but not ground breaking. In my opinion, he was nominated because of the tragedy of his death. However, we can neither prove nor disprove that with any kind of facts.
CTF
Sr Member
Sorry, I'm trying to figure out how your post relates to the argument.
JD
Master Member
Hathaway seems like a good fit as Selina Kyle... no mention of Catwoman anywhere. Now if they would rshoot Batman Begins with Selina Kyle in it more along the lines of Batman: Year One, I'd be much more a happy camper.
I just hope Selina Kyle isn't there as a merely a love interest for Bruce Wayne. Rachel Dawes was a stereotypical joke in the first two of Nolan's flicks, but at least he was smart enough to kill her off (one of the few things I liked from Nolan's Batflicks).
I'm not sold on Bane. I can think of several villain's I'd rather see from Batman's Rogues Gallery over Bane. I wonder if we're going to see another broken Batback?
I just hope Selina Kyle isn't there as a merely a love interest for Bruce Wayne. Rachel Dawes was a stereotypical joke in the first two of Nolan's flicks, but at least he was smart enough to kill her off (one of the few things I liked from Nolan's Batflicks).
I'm not sold on Bane. I can think of several villain's I'd rather see from Batman's Rogues Gallery over Bane. I wonder if we're going to see another broken Batback?
SSgt Burton
Sr Member
dualedge
Sr Member
I love Anne Hathaway... I think she's a fantastic choice and I think she's incredibly beautiful AND talented. Fortunately we're talking about OPINIONS here so mine is just as valid as yours, CB. 
Besides, didn't you even see the Princess Diaries? Brilliant! (that's sarcasm by the way )
Even though I didn't really care for Katie Holmes in Batman Begins, I hate casting changes between sequels... I'm also not really excited by Maggie Gyllenhaal either so that kind of sucked to have the character not only recast but recast as someone I wasn't gonzo about.
All that said, The Dark Knight in my humble opinion deserved at least a best picture nomination and in my opinion should have won it too but we all know that anything scifi/fantasy/superhero related doesn't usually have a chance in non-technical categories except under special circumstances such as Ledger's death.
And, CB2001, I hope you weren't suggesting that an actor NOT winning an acting award means they didn't do a good job in a movie.
Nolan is easily one of the best directors in Hollywood based on his previous films (which speak for themselves both in critical reviews and financial returns) so even though I wasn't crazy about his casting choices with Katie Holmes and Maggie Gyllenhaal, it didn't stop him from making some great movies (and IMHO the best movie of 2008 - the Hurt Locker was good but I liked TDK much, MUCH more personally).
And for whoever was talking about the casting directors... you can't really criticize a casting director... they don't have final say in who is cast so blaming them is like blaming the waiter at a restaurant for bad food instead of blaming the cook. They just present the director with options and even then, they are going to be working to get the director what HE wants, not what they personally prefer.
All that said, Bane wouldn't have been my personal preference for a villain but then I just don't personally care for the character. I'm willing to give Nolan the benefit of the doubt. If anybody can make it believable and give it dramatic weight, I think he can.
Besides, didn't you even see the Princess Diaries? Brilliant! (that's sarcasm by the way )Even though I didn't really care for Katie Holmes in Batman Begins, I hate casting changes between sequels... I'm also not really excited by Maggie Gyllenhaal either so that kind of sucked to have the character not only recast but recast as someone I wasn't gonzo about.
All that said, The Dark Knight in my humble opinion deserved at least a best picture nomination and in my opinion should have won it too but we all know that anything scifi/fantasy/superhero related doesn't usually have a chance in non-technical categories except under special circumstances such as Ledger's death.
And, CB2001, I hope you weren't suggesting that an actor NOT winning an acting award means they didn't do a good job in a movie.
Nolan is easily one of the best directors in Hollywood based on his previous films (which speak for themselves both in critical reviews and financial returns) so even though I wasn't crazy about his casting choices with Katie Holmes and Maggie Gyllenhaal, it didn't stop him from making some great movies (and IMHO the best movie of 2008 - the Hurt Locker was good but I liked TDK much, MUCH more personally).
And for whoever was talking about the casting directors... you can't really criticize a casting director... they don't have final say in who is cast so blaming them is like blaming the waiter at a restaurant for bad food instead of blaming the cook. They just present the director with options and even then, they are going to be working to get the director what HE wants, not what they personally prefer.
All that said, Bane wouldn't have been my personal preference for a villain but then I just don't personally care for the character. I'm willing to give Nolan the benefit of the doubt. If anybody can make it believable and give it dramatic weight, I think he can.
Jawafive
Sr Member
I told a friend of mine last year if they had to do a catwoman appearance (or Selina Kyle) use Anne Hathaway. She's beautiful, talented, and for my money, fits the part very well. She was great in Brokeback Mountain and I'm going to check out Havoc tonight.
Bane, IMO, is a wasted choice unless he's just making a few appearances. There are much better characters to use. I know he is the man who broke the bat, but I doubt that will be the case in TDKR. I would have preferred Black Mask as a main villain with Croc (or even bane if necessary) as hired guns.
Bane, IMO, is a wasted choice unless he's just making a few appearances. There are much better characters to use. I know he is the man who broke the bat, but I doubt that will be the case in TDKR. I would have preferred Black Mask as a main villain with Croc (or even bane if necessary) as hired guns.
Larry Young
Master Member
That's his opinion. He didn't like it. How can it be wrong? Are you school teacher by any chance?
I never saw what the fuss was about with TDK either. It's Gotham Law to me.
But Nolan has been good at casting against type. Joker turned out great. Just as long as Catwoman doesn't have high heels.
I never saw what the fuss was about with TDK either. It's Gotham Law to me.
But Nolan has been good at casting against type. Joker turned out great. Just as long as Catwoman doesn't have high heels.
Larry Young
Master Member
Well, I didn't say his opinion was wrong, now, did I? I said that statements by him in the vein of "Inception is the most boring of Nolan's films" and trying to support his arguments by anecdotally offering the ratio of people dressing up in costumes at cons and the like as just the folly of youth. More adolescent gobbledy-**** like that, and I'd be swayed to CTF's appraisal that he's bordering on the ignorant.
So, yes, I know "ignorant" is an emotionally-loaded word, but applies to most kids, yes? Haven't seen enough of the world yet.
No, god bless 'em, but I do have a pretty good facility with the English language and it wounds my soul when folks don't use it efficiently.
Me, neither, but I kind of don't see the appeal of Batman past the Adam West interpretation, anyway. :lol
CB2001
Master Member
No, I'm suggesting that she hasn't done anything that warrents her even being an option for playing the role of Selina Kyle and Catwoman. Every film she's be in, she's always played the same character, which is always whiney and indecisive. In "Havoc", her character was a whiney and indecisive high schooler. In "The Princess Diaries", she was a whiney and indecisive young girl who became a whiney and indecisive princess. In "Get Smart", she was a whiney and indecisive tough chick. In "The Devil Wears Prada", she was a whiney and indecisive secretary. Even in "Alice in Wonderland", she was whiney and indecisive! I'm sorry, but acting requires a lot more than just being whiney and indecisive. Look at Anthony Hopkins, and his performances. Look at the range of emotions he pulls off in not just the "Hannibal Lector" movies, but in "Bram Stoker's Dracula", "The Elephant Man" and "The Worlds Fastest Indian" to name a few of his performances. People tend to notice actors and actresses that pull off a lot more than just two character types.
Even Christian Bale has pulled off more of an emotional palette than Anne Hathaway. I'm citing not his performance as Bruce Wayne, I'm citing his performances in "American Psycho", "Empire of the Sun" "A Midsummer Night's Dream", "Laurel Canyon" and "Rescue Dawn." Each character he's played has had a wide range of emotion. Not two like all of Anne Hathaway's performances.
THAT is my point.
And that's also the point about my comments about Ledger and his portrayal of The Joker. Most people expected the comic book Joker, where he has gags and "toys" (much like the '89 film Joker did). But the Joker in TDK stood out because of the fact he wasn't the comic book version of the Joker. He was truly a madman, a rebel with a cause that no one else got and dangerous enough to follow through with whatever chaotic plan he had. And it's not just because "people like the Joker," it's because this Joker stood out against all the other previous versions of the Joker, in comic, video game, animated series and films alike. This was a different kind of monster that a lot of people like. THAT'S my point.
Larry Young
Master Member
Your point is you'd like to see Sir Anthony play Catwoman?
CB2001
Master Member
You're previous statement was as followed...
You opened the door to my response. I responded in relation to the door of this part of the conversation you opened, which is in relation to the Joker being the only redeeming thing of TDK. A lot more people LIKED the Ledger version of Joker than they did Batman. There are more fans of TDK Joker, than there are of TDK Batman. If they didn't have the Joker in it, it'd be just as boring as the first Nolan Batman film was. THAT'S how the argument fits.
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CB2001
Master Member
No, I'm saying that we don't need a whiney and indecisive Catwoman! That's the only type of character Anne Hathaway has always played. What we need is a kickass goddess who is capable of pulling off the emotional palette of WHO Catwoman is. Michelle Pfiffer, when she did Catwoman in "Batman Returns", she pulled off that range of emotion that came with the character. THAT'S what I mean.
If you want a block of wood playing Catwoman, then Anne Hathaway will certainly be perfect that way.
Larry Young
Master Member
Hey, CB: just a friendly little observation. You might want to reign in the defensiveness a little, because your critical thinking isn't up to speed. CTF said he's trying to parse meaning in your response and I have to say I agree. Here's what you said, when Callum incredulously asked about your Joker statement:
"Let's see.... How many people do you see dressed up as Batman from TDK at a convention? Or how about YouTube impersonations of TDK Batman?
"Now... Compare that to the numbers of people who dressed up as Joker from TDK at a convention and YouTube Impersonations of TDK Joker.
"No?"
From this, it makes it seem as though you equate cosplayers' choices with an immediacy of character. There's so many variables as to why folks would choose one over the other (if we even stipulate your anecdotal observations, which I think are much more half-and-half than you believe), that this really doesn't make any sense.
"How about, comparing the number of people who make TDK Joker Costumes on The RPF (of either him at the beginning of the film or at during the rest of the film), be it asking questions how to make them or costumes made, and compare it to the amount of users who make Batman from TDK costumes."
Someone upthread answered this for you already. Joker's an easier costume to construct.
"Or, if you really want to go for it: Do you notice how there's no 'Best Actor' nomination for Christian Bale for his portrayal of Bruce Wayne/Batman in TDK, yet there is an Oscar Win for 'Best Supporting Actor' for Ledger and his Joker?"
Not taking away anything from Ledger, but this is the Pacino-wins-for-Scent-of-a-Woman Effect. Ledger should have won for Brokeback Mountain, so, in addition to his untimely death, he had that in a walk. Here're the Vegas odds on the winners in his category:
Josh Brolin, Milk 14-1
Heath Ledger, The Dark Knight 1-9
Robert Downey Jr., Tropic Thunder 20-1
Philip Seymour Hoffman, Doubt 8-1
Michael Shannon, Revolutionary Road 16-1
Look at that, man. Odds were 14 to 1 against Josh Brolin, and 1-9 for Heath. The fact Ledger won an award does absolutely nothing for your point, critically-speaking.
"Am I ignorant now? Or maybe I'm actually onto something. Think about that."
I'm not sure I'd go all the way to "ignorant," but you sure are a cheeky little monkey. :lol
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