UFO Sightings

[Lflank]

Actually, with the Horton Brothers, I was stating that the technology [in a way] existed in the mid 40's. A semi-stealth, extremely maneuverable, jet air craft.

With the SR-71, it's safe to say that it's 40-50 years old and still has that capability that it does.

Look at the Stealth Bomber. Introduced in 1997, first flight in 1989. It was created in the mid 1980's.

The SR 71 was not maneuverable and was not intended to be. It was intended to fly a straight line, very fast and very high. Virtually none of the SR 71's technology was found in the Horton bomber.

As for the Ho's stealth capability, it was purely an accident. Radar barely existed in its day, and the Germans were not trying to beat the radar. It just happened that the "flying wing" configuration used in the Horton had a lower radar profile than the converntional tailed designs--a phenomenon that was noticed later when the US built its YB 49, which was loosely based on the Horton design.

The technology for the SR 71 simply did not exist in the 40's. That's why the US built the U-2 instead, and used the U-2 in operations until the available technology DID improve enough, in the 50's, to build and test the SR 71.

If our Air Force friend here, or anyone else, is implying that the SR 71 or the Stealth bomber or any other US military hardware came from space aliens, they are simply full of ****. The geneology of everything in the US arsenal can be traced directly back to its ordinary prosaic terrestrial technology (much of it German).

 

[Lflank]

It's been reported by both commercial pilots and military pilots, from a multitude of nations. So, it comes down to this:

Either Aliens are already here........or........our nations have a military aircraft so advanced that we [civilians] have no clue about and can't even comprehend how it works.

or . . . people see what they want to see.

Even the most ardent UFO fan concedes that fewer than fifteen percent of all UFO reports are "unexplained"--and even in the majority of those no explanation is possible because not enough information is available (the "report" consists of something like "Joe Blow saw a UFO near Podunkville two years ago").

I've seen no good evidence whatsoever that the very small fraction of "unexplained" UFOs aren't caused by the very same things that the large percentage of "explained" ones are.

(And it is indeed very likely that the military has advanced aircraft that we don't recognize and report as "flying saucers" when we happen to see them---one good example being the stealth dirigible, which is huge, has a triangular shape that most of wouldn't recognize, and it completely silent in flight. Ever wonder why the colored lights reported on flying saucers--red and green--are PRECISELY the color lights used as navigation lights on all aircraft?)

 

[munson]

The SR 71 was not maneuverable and was not intended to be. It was intended to fly a straight line, very fast and very high. Virtually none of the SR 71's technology was found in the Horton bomber.

As for the Ho's stealth capability, it was purely an accident. Radar barely existed in its day, and the Germans were not trying to beat the radar. It just happened that the "flying wing" configuration used in the Horton had a lower radar profile than the converntional tailed designs--a phenomenon that was noticed later when the US built its YB 49, which was loosely based on the Horton design.

The technology for the SR 71 simply did not exist in the 40's. That's why the US built the U-2 instead, and used the U-2 in operations until the available technology DID improve enough, in the 50's, to build and test the SR 71.

If our Air Force friend here, or anyone else, is implying that the SR 71 or the Stealth bomber or any other US military hardware came from space aliens, they are simply full of ****. The geneology of everything in the US arsenal can be traced directly back to its ordinary prosaic terrestrial technology (much of it German).

I never stated that the SR-71 was a maneuverable fighter. It was a hi-altitude, very fast reconnaissance aircraft. I never made any attempt to connect it to the Horton Brothers aircraft. When I stated that in my post, it was meant to bring the point that this technology wasn't that far off after WWII.

What I'm trying to get at is look at how old this technology is. Now fast forward 40-50 years and it's hard to imagine what they're trying to come up with now.

 

[munson]

or . . . people see what they want to see.

Even the most ardent UFO fan concedes that fewer than fifteen percent of all UFO reports are "unexplained"--and even in the majority of those no explanation is possible because not enough information is available (the "report" consists of something like "Joe Blow saw a UFO near Podunkville two years ago").

I've seen no good evidence whatsoever that the very small fraction of "unexplained" UFOs aren't caused by the very same things that the large percentage of "explained" ones are.

(And it is indeed very likely that the military has advanced aircraft that we don't recognize and report as "flying saucers" when we happen to see them---one good example being the stealth dirigible, which is huge, has a triangular shape that most of wouldn't recognize, and it completely silent in flight. Ever wonder why the colored lights reported on flying saucers--red and green--are PRECISELY the color lights used as navigation lights on all aircraft?)

But I'm not talking about "Joe Blow", I'm talking about the reports from military pilots and from commercial airline pilots [which many are retired military]. Even like you said, fewer then 15%. That is still a lot to think about. We are a species that we don't believe something exists until it's proven it doesn't, but we are quickly to disprove something if there is no hardcore proof it exists. There's a very little "gray area" in which no one considers. We see something flying in the sky, very noticable, that acts nothing remotely like what we have....and to many, they don't want to see it because they don't want to believe it. They wont believe it until it lands, walks out, and shakes their hand.

It's hard for me to imagine that the hundreds, if not thousands of UFO sightings are all one large Houdini trick.

 

[Lflank]

I never stated that the SR-71 was a maneuverable fighter. It was a hi-altitude, very fast reconnaissance aircraft. I never made any attempt to connect it to the Horton Brothers aircraft. When I stated that in my post, it was meant to bring the point that this technology wasn't that far off after WWII.

What I'm trying to get at is look at how old this technology is. Now fast forward 40-50 years and it's hard to imagine what they're trying to come up with now.

I think the problem is with the words "this technology".

If by "this technology", you simply mean "jet engines in general", then "this technology" began in the late 20's. The turbojet engine was developed in the late 20's and granted a patent in 1930. That does not even remotely mean, however, that "the technology for the SR71 existed in the 20's". Indeed, the specific jet engine configurations that were necessary for the SR71 were not developed until the 50's. It could not have been built before then because the particular technology it used did not exist before then. While "jet engines" existed before that, the type of jet engine needed for the SR71 did not.

Saying "the technology for the SR71 existed in the 40's" just because jet engines existed then, is like saying "the technology for the Formula One racing car existed in the 1890's just" because internal combustion autos existed then, or "the technology for the supercomputer existed in the 1930's" because electric computers existed then.

 

[Lflank]

But I'm not talking about "Joe Blow", I'm talking about the reports from military pilots and from commercial airline pilots [which many are retired military]. Even like you said, fewer then 15%. That is still a lot to think about. We are a species that we don't believe something exists until it's proven it doesn't, but we are quickly to disprove something if there is no hardcore proof it exists. There's a very little "gray area" in which no one considers. We see something flying in the sky, very noticable, that acts nothing remotely like what we have....and to many, they don't want to see it because they don't want to believe it. They wont believe it until it lands, walks out, and shakes their hand.

It's hard for me to imagine that the hundreds, if not thousands of UFO sightings are all one large Houdini trick.

People have been seeing things for centuries that don't exist. Dragons, ghosts, witches, gargoyles, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, demons, devils, sea monsters, etc etc etc.

As for me, "belief" doesn't mean diddley doo. Anything that needs to be believed in before it can be seen, probably isn't there in the first place. Evidence is what matters. And the UFO fans have zero evidence.

Until they do, there's no point listening to their stories.

 

[Lflank]

It's hard for me to imagine that the hundreds, if not thousands of UFO sightings are all one large Houdini trick.

How about the hundreds, if not thousands, of dragon sightings all around the world. Do you think dragons really exist?

Every society in history has also had its legends of vampires or vampire-like creatures, and hundreds, if not thousands, of people have claimed throughout history to have seen them. Every society in history also has its legends of shape-shifters like werewolves, werebears, werejaguars, etc etc etc, and hundreds if not thousands who claim to have seen them. Do you think vampires and shape shifters are real?

 

[munson]

People once believed the earth was flat...that the sun, stars, and everything revolved around the earth and that the earth was, in fact, the center of the universe. To even question this was a death sentence. People believed this to be true until proven otherwise.

They were wrong.

Now fast forward hundreds of years, and you have the same exact thing happening. People believe we're the smartest species in the universe, and that there is no other species in the universe because: [1] They haven't contacted us [arrogance, why would a more advanced (if they are) talk to us? A dangerous species on this planet?]. The creation process is complicated. Since it's complicated, it only happened this one time on this planet [it's complicated to us now, but it the future when we understand it better, it may not be. Look at how we try to understand anything else. It's complicated at first....]. We, as a species, still try to comprehend how civilizations existed years ago...how the Inca build a city on top of a mountain, where their supplies weren't even close to where they built. Yet, we think we know what we're talking about as far as the universe goes?

There are videos of unexplainable aircraft's, that don't perform even close to what we know of-and perhaps defy the laws of physics. Is it from another world? Is it from our governments? We don't know. It's easier to state that it's from our government...just like hundreds of years ago, it was easy to state that the sun and stars revolved around the earth.

 

[Replica]

I don't think many people think the evidence surrounding UFO's is definitive proof that they are of alien origins. But if one were to want to simply prove the existence of strange things in the sky then there is heaps of evidence. Mass sightings, pilot sightings, military/airforce/police sigtings, hell even a president or two has seen them. Reports have been filed, which for a pilot or military officer is not done lightly as it can ruin careers. There have also been numerous ground radar recordings, backed up by on board radar and whitnessed - not easy to fool all 3. NASA has recorded things on radar, as well as recorded audio of astronauts seeing different things.

That's just a bunch off the top of my head, there sure isn't a lack of evidence.

 

[Lflank]

People once believed the earth was flat...that the sun, stars, and everything revolved around the earth and that the earth was, in fact, the center of the universe. To even question this was a death sentence. People believed this to be true until proven otherwise.

They were wrong.

But they were convinced by evidence. That's how science works.

Show me the evidence, and I'll be convinced too. There's nothing more I'd like than definitive proof that intelligent life is visiting the earth.

Alas, there is no evidence or proof. Just lots of people's say-so.

They laughed at Copernicus, they laughed at Galileo. But they laughed at Bozo the Clown, too.

 

[munson]

But they were convinced by evidence. That's how science works.

Show me the evidence, and I'll be convinced too. There's nothing more I'd like than definitive proof that intelligent life is visiting the earth.

Alas, there is no evidence or proof. Just lots of people's say-so.

They laughed at Copernicus, they laughed at Galileo. But they laughed at Bozo the Clown, too.

Look at the science from that era in time compared to our today. Now, it's wrong. We have went on the beliefs of few, from what they proved which is nothing more then a hypothesis.

I agree with you that there is no hard proof, no documented alien landings, etc...but we have extremely credible people, the military pilots for example, that state they have seen something that is extremely questionable.

Dr. Kaku speaks about multiple dimensions. What if, and I said if, he's right? What if there are extra dimensional beings?

 

[Lflank]

I agree with you that there is no hard proof, no documented alien landings, etc...but we have extremely credible people, the military pilots for example, that state they have seen something that is extremely questionable.

"Seen something extremely questionable" does not translate into "ETs are visiting us". If you want to demonstrate that ETs are visiting us, you need more than "this guy saw something he can't explain".

I have not seen any eyewitness account, by anyone, anywhere at any time, that conclusively indicates that ETs are visiting earth. Nor have I seen a shred of physical evidence anywhere at any time to indicate any such thing.

Until you HAVE that, then all the flying saucer stories are no more use to science than all the dragon or vampire stories.

Dr. Kaku speaks about multiple dimensions. What if, and I said if, he's right? What if there are extra dimensional beings?

Well, quantum physics is something I know a few things about, so I know what Dr Kaku is referring to. Humans experience the world in three dimensions. Einstein showed that time acts as a fourth dimension. Superstring theory requires that there be at minimum ten dimensions.

But here's where you misunderstand Dr Kaku----those other dimensions are not in some "other world"---they are here, right now, in this one. They are a part of our ordinary reality just like the three dimensions that we normally experience are. But according to string theory, these "extra" dimensions are curled up very tightly into spacetime, in such a small space that we cannot experience them (though the "strings" of string theory can). So the answer to your question is already in front of you--literally. If there are "extra dimension beings", they'd also be part of our ordinary three dimensions.

It is also possible that instead of misinterpreting the extra dimensions of string theory, you are in fact confusing that with Dr Kaku's ideas about multiple universes. That hypothesis says that for every quantum choice, a new universe appears for every possible outcome. But here's the part you may be misunderstanding about that----those are entirely separate universes, with no connection at all to our own. They do not interact, and what happens in one universe does not affect the rest of the multiverse.

BTW, you might want to read what Dr Kaku says about flying saucers and alien visitors. You won't like it.

 

[Lflank]

It is also possible that instead of misinterpreting the extra dimensions of string theory, you are in fact confusing that with Dr Kaku's ideas about multiple universes. That hypothesis says that for every quantum choice, a new universe appears for every possible outcome. But here's the part you may be misunderstanding about that----those are entirely separate universes, with no connection at all to our own. They do not interact, and what happens in one universe does not affect the rest of the multiverse.

I should clarify here: there is indeed a hypothesis that gravity does indeed interact through all the multiverse, and the reason why gravity is so extraordinarily weak in our universe compared to the other three forces is because gravity's force is shared among all the other universes, while the other forces are not.

That idea is, though, not widely accepted among theoretical physicists, and it has no experimental support whatsoever. It also wouldn't help the flying saucer fans, since that interaction would not allow matter from one universe to interact with matter in another part of the multiverse.

 

[Replica]

BTW, you might want to read what Dr Kaku says about flying saucers and alien visitors. You won't like it.

maybe we all should...

Michio Kaku: UFOs Are Real - MSNBC Dylan Ratigan Show

i think you will find that Mr Kaku is quite positive about the subject, mentioning that UFOs exist and that, while we don't have definitive proof, the extraterrestrial hypothesis is the most likely.

the book hes talking about is "UFOs: Generals, Pilots and Government Officials Go on the Record." by Leslie Kean. I highly recommend it to people on both sides of the fence on the UFO topic

 

[Lflank]

maybe we all should...

Michio Kaku: UFOs Are Real - MSNBC Dylan Ratigan Show

i think you will find that Mr Kaku is quite positive about the subject, mentioning that UFOs exist and that, while we don't have definitive proof, the extraterrestrial hypothesis is the most likely.

the book hes talking about is "UFOs: Generals, Pilots and Government Officials Go on the Record." by Leslie Kean. I highly recommend it to people on both sides of the fence on the UFO topic

He's quite clear----there's no solid evidence. Or, as he puts it: "I wouldn't go that far. We need alien DNA or an alien ship. That would nail it to the wall right there. We don't have that."

He's absolutely right.

I share Dr Kaku's view. While I've not seen a shred of evidence to indicate that any ETs have ever visited us, I don't reject the possibility, and indeed I can think of nothing more exciting than the possibility. But if all we have is anecdotal accounts, there's simply nothing to study.

That's how science works.

BTW, military people don't make any better witnesses than anyone else does. The military itself has done several studies of UFO reports over the decades, and none of them concluded that they were ETs.

It should also be pointed out that science doesn't care about the "argument from authority"----flying saucers don't exist just because scientist X Y or Z says they do. Indeed for every scientist one can find who will say "ETs are visiting us", there are a few dozen who will declare "there's no evidence at all for that". And evidence is all that matters.

That is also how science works.

 

[Replica]

He's quite clear----there's no solid evidence. Or, as he puts it: "I wouldn't go that far. We need alien DNA or an alien ship. That would nail it to the wall right there. We don't have that."

He's absolutely right.

I share Dr Kaku's view. While I've not seen a shred of evidence to indicate that any ETs have ever visited us, I don't reject the possibility, and indeed I can think of nothing more exciting than the possibility. But if all we have is anecdotal accounts, there's simply nothing to study.

That's how science works.

BTW, military people don't make any better witnesses than anyone else does.

im aware of how science works. i wasn't presenting an interview about a book as scientific findings on the existence of extraterrestrials. Simply showing you, and everyone else Mr.Kaku's view on the subject

yeah, he says that he wouldn't go as far as to say the existence of UFOs is definitive proof of aliens. I totally agree. However when asked if its possible they aren't from outer space he explains how unlikely that is.

you really should read the book before disputing its content, what i mean is the stories are generally mass sightings backed up by radar. Its considered to be the gold standard of UFO research - to quote Mr.Kaku again


and i think what he is referring to is air force personnel, trained to spot military aircraft and maneuvers would make better witnesses of something strange in the sky.

 

[Lflank]

yeah, he says that he wouldn't go as far as to say the existence of UFOs is definitive proof of aliens. I totally agree. However when asked if its possible they aren't from outer space he explains how unlikely that is.

you really should read the book before disputing its content, what i mean is the stories are generally mass sightings backed up by radar. Its considered to be the gold standard of UFO research - to quote Mr.Kaku again

Here's my problem with the "radar evidence" . . . ..

The US, France, Japan and China all track debris in space (so it doesn't mess with their satellites). They can track an object in orbit, by radar, the size of a nut or bolt.

And in all that time, they have never, ever, not even once, ever recorded a radar track of anything that appeared to be under intelligent control either leaving or entering earth from space. Just the random comet or asteroid chunk.

The flying saucer fans, of course, immediately pipe up with the "but. . . but . . . the aliens have STEALTH and can't be seen on radar !!"

Uh, then what about all this "military radar evidence" that everyone keeps crowing about?

Either the UFOs can be seen on radar (in which case there's no evidence at all of any of them entering or leaving earth) or they can't be seen on radar (in which case all the vaunted radar "military radar evidence" is a crock of baloney.

Which is it?

 

[Lflank]

and i think what he is referring to is air force personnel, trained to spot military aircraft and maneuvers would make better witnesses of something strange in the sky.

As I noted, the military itself has already investigated all the military UFO reports, on several different reports over the years. Not a one of them concluded that UFOs are ETs.

I'm also curious as to why all the nighttime UFo reports give the colors of the UFO as green and red--which, coincidentally, are the color lights that are legally required for any aircraft in the world to operate at night.

Is it just a coincidence that the space aliens just so happen to have the very same navigation lights that terrestrial aircraft do? The space aliens just happened to pick red and green too, instead of, say, red and yellow, or yellow and blue, or red and blue, or pink and mauve, or taupe and vermillion?

 

[Replica]

Here's my problem with the "radar evidence" . . . ..

The US, France, Japan and China all track debris in space (so it doesn't mess with their satellites). They can track an object in orbit, by radar, the size of a nut or bolt.

And in all that time, they have never, ever, not even once, ever recorded a radar track of anything that appeared to be under intelligent control either leaving or entering earth from space. Just the random comet or asteroid chunk.

The flying saucer fans, of course, immediately pipe up with the "but. . . but . . . the aliens have STEALTH and can't be seen on radar !!"

Uh, then what about all this "military radar evidence" that everyone keeps crowing about?

Either the UFOs can be seen on radar (in which case there's no evidence at all of any of them entering or leaving earth) or they can't be seen on radar (in which case all the vaunted radar "military radar evidence" is a crock of baloney.

Which is it?

Firstly, im well aware that isnt your only problem with UFOs. However, you're mistaking "not found" with "not released". Im not someone who buys into conspiracies, but keeping UFO evidence a secret is something the US has been known to do. but stuff does get tracked, look into the "fastwalker" incident - still unexplained.

the thing with UFOs being only occasionally tracked is radar doesn't pick up everything 100% of the time. If it did the screen would be indeclinable. Instead they need to be calibrated to pick up whatever its looking for. I honestly hate to bring up 9/11 but that is an example of radar being unable to pick up large aircraft simply by turning off their transponders.

As I noted, the military itself has already investigated all the military UFO reports, on several different reports over the years. Not a one of them concluded that UFOs are ETs.

I'm also curious as to why all the nighttime UFo reports give the colors of the UFO as green and red--which, coincidentally, are the color lights that are legally required for any aircraft in the world to operate at night.

Is it just a coincidence that the space aliens just so happen to have the very same navigation lights that terrestrial aircraft do? The space aliens just happened to pick red and green too, instead of, say, red and yellow, or yellow and blue, or red and blue, or pink and mauve, or taupe and vermillion?

actually project sign concluded it was likely to be ETs resulting in project grudge - which was specifically designed declare UFOs fake . No one has ever said it definitely is ETs, including me, no need to try to convince me of that.

i dare say those are part of the 95% of UFO sightings that are misidentified aircraft or weather anomalies. This figure is widely accepted

 

[Lflank]

Firstly, im well aware that isnt your only problem with UFOs. However, you're mistaking "not found" with "not released". Im not someone who buys into conspiracies, but keeping UFO evidence a secret is something the US has been known to do. but stuff does get tracked, look into the "fastwalker" incident - still unexplained.

I've never accepted the whole "the government wants to cover up UFOs, because I've never been given any sensible reason why they would want to. What do they gain by it? And in terms of sheer practicality, how could they even if they wanted to? Bill Clinton couldn't even get a BJ in the Oval Office without half the world finding out about it. All the top secret thingies eventually leak out. There's just no way to stop it. Particularly if anyone who leaked definitive proof of UFOs to the public would instantly become the most famous person in all of human history--the book and movie deal alone would nbe worth millions. Yet nobody has ever stepped forward to claim that awesome prize. I suspect that's because the evidence simply isn't there.

ANd what about all the other governments in the world? We have had governments on this planet from military dictator butcher regimes to peaceful democratic states--and not a one of them has ever released a word about the presumed global conspiracy. I find that impossible to believe.

the thing with UFOs being only occasionally tracked is radar doesn't pick up everything 100% of the time. If it did the screen would be indeclinable. Instead they need to be calibrated to pick up whatever its looking for.

But there's the problem-----in space, there's nothing to clutter up the screen, and ANYTHING, of ANY size, that either enters or leaves the earth is immediately visible, down to the size of a marble. That is what those radars are specifically designed to do--pick up moving objects in space and track their paths.

I suppose the UFOlogists could argue that the flying saucers are smaller than a marble . . . . . .

I honestly hate to bring up 9/11 but that is an example of radar being unable to pick up large aircraft simply by turning off their transponders.

It's not that they're only OCCASIONALLY tracked in space---it's that they have NEVER been tracked in space, ever. And those radars operate all day every day.

BTW, you are mistaken--turning off the transponder does not make an airplane invisible to radar--the radar blip is still there just as before. The transponder only labels the blip with the flight number and radio frequency. There's no way to hide a 767 from radar. It just can't be done.

actually project sign concluded it was likely to be ETs

No it didn't. The report concluded that "the extraterrestrial hypothesis" could neither be confirmed nor refuted. There simply was not enough evidence. No military report has ever concluded that UFOs are ETs, and there is no evidence of any sort that the military has ever made any military plans for dealing with an ET foe.

i dare say those are part of the 95% of UFO sightings that are misidentified aircraft or weather anomalies. This figure is widely accepted

I dare say that the remaining 5% consist of the same things as the other 95%.