TK AP RECAST???? Help

moff man

Well-Known Member
I bought this AP face and dome here in the JY and when I found I didn't have the time to build it I sold it on the 501st legion board. I shipped it out and when the guy got it he emailed me very upset claiming that i sold him a recast. I am no expert at these matters, so i told him by all means send it back for a refund. He seemed very upset at me for selling him a recast, so my question is, can you tell by looking at this?
ap2.jpg



ap1.jpg


He sent me a pic of a finished AP helmet and claims this one has soft features.:unsure
 
It's hard to tell from you photos due to camera distance, angle, lens distortion and overexposure. I don't think you should be made out to be the guilty party if you did not know it was a recast.

However, I have been observing a recaster called VacuumThis (VT, or vacuum_dis! on eBay) who has been recasting AP's work. Would this be the person you purchased the kit from?

He started out as NewImage58, claims he found a helmet whose origins he did not know, and that he put significant modifications into it to make it his own. The problem is that his "modified" helmets look almost indistinguishable to AP's. When confronted, he later changed his eBay i.d. to e-chu-ta.

newimage_and_ap.jpg


NewImage58 re-invented himself as Vacuum-dis! or Vaccum-This on eBay, and went on to reproduce AP's entire suit:

VT_COMP.jpg


cc32_3.jpg


Look familiar?

Costumers should caution their garrisons against these VT helmets and suits. There's nothing original. They're illicit copies made from ripping AP off. They should stop promoting VT to their friends.

More info at:

http://thepropden.aokforums.com/vacuum-dis-is-this-e-chu-ta-newimage58-vt2453.html
 
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The guy i sold it to said that the eye bags and the comlink are very soft . I will post better pics when I get it back here to the house.
 
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Thanks for the heads-up CSM! Didn't know about that...

Seems that the suspect has changed his Ebay-ID from 'NewImage58' to 'stormtrooperbits' .
 
Mac that newimage one is an AP recast but it's a fibreglass one, this one Moff Man got sold is a vacuum formed one.
I'm pretty sure that Kamino-clone recast an AP Mac the same guy that recast the VM02 it's more likely one of those i wouldn't be surprised if Vacuum-this is kamino-clone not newimage, i've never seen new image offer vacuum formed stuff.
The CAP armour is a TE recast Moff Man and he openly admits it but that doesn't seem to be an issue on certain costuming boards.
 
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Its a re-cast, Who did you buy it from and what was his story ?

I bought from a guy here on the RPF. Back when I first signed up. It was list in the Junkyard with pics and everything, he had a few sets he sold here on the same post. I don't want to oust him in public if it is not a recast.
 
some good points being made here
what responsibility do we have as consumers?
i want a helmet..... i find one i can afford and looks good....
do i post here to try to ascertain lineage or just buy it?
I dont want to see anybody get ripped off..... my dr who keys are recsat all over ebay but c'mon i wouldnt get mad at joe schmoe for buying a set out of ignorance.
 
Mac that newimage one is an AP recast but it's a fibreglass one, this one Moff Man got sold is a vacuum formed one.
I'm pretty sure that Kamino-clone recast an AP Mac the same guy that recast the VM02 it's more likely one of those i wouldn't be surprised if Vacuum-this is kamino-clone not newimage, i've never seen new image offer vacuum formed stuff.
The CAP armour is a TE recast Moff Man and he openly admits it but that doesn't seem to be an issue on certain costuming boards.


The recaster, Kamino-Clone, was based in England, right? vaccum_dis! is based on "DeathStar, United States." Of course, a seller doesn't necessarily have to tell the truth when filling out the Item location field.

Are you seeing that newimage58 was using the same materials (resin, color, etc.) as the AP recast?
 
some good points being made here
what responsibility do we have as consumers?
i want a helmet..... i find one i can afford and looks good....
do i post here to try to ascertain lineage or just buy it?
I dont want to see anybody get ripped off..... my dr who keys are recsat all over ebay but c'mon i wouldnt get mad at joe schmoe for buying a set out of ignorance.


Some people claim they had no choice but to recast someone else's work because of price or inaccessibility. However, the recaster himself ends up making money. And even if he were selling his stuff for less than the original vendor, it's the sheer numbers that add up to profitability.

I think that people who unknowingly buy something that was a recast shouldnt' be condemned. At this rate, over 90 percent of eBay stormtrooper helmets, unless marked "eFX" or "MR" are recasts. Originally, recasts were limited to fiberglass because it was fairly straightforward to goop silicone onto an ABS vacuum pull. But of late, people started to figure out creative ways to ilicitly copy someone else's work, such as by molding the interior.

The fan who sincerely wants something needs to spend some time studying first before dropping hard earned money.

(Then there is the Prop-Ponzi scheme. Some Vader-vendors who have owed fans helmets and have not delivered in over a year use eBay to make a quick buck. They deliver an order quickly so the excited new customer brags to his online buddies and encourages them to buy... only to find that they join the ranks of people owed helmets and have not received them.)

While I'm one of the first to admit I had to wait a year for my TE helmet to show up, my alternative was to browse the various prop/costuming boards until someone was selling theirs, and hopefully a suit or helmet of the right size and quality would become available.

The person who recast TE because he found TE's work either inaccessible or didn't like the wait times could have simply gone to TE2 or AP. There are other brands.
 
AP also sells mis-formed helmet kits for less - usually the quality even in those are pretty damn high, but he's a perfectionist so sell it as a second grade kit. This could easily be one of those, you really don't have any guarantee except that of the original seller and where he bought it from.
 
You can also tell by the way AP 's ears are formed end to end and as if they were vac formed on a piece of wood sticky taped together. you can see the grain from the wood and tape marks! Well at least on mine you can.
Cap is a whole different story apparently as said already he is accepted in some boards because his vac forming is second to none! Which in my book defeats the whole point. Recasting should be either accepted or not, end of. To say it's ok because he does a good job and admits it's a recast is Bull****. If that were acceptable I could do it as I can vac form with the best of them!
My advice is do your homework and buy from the guys that have invested thousands of £/$ to give us reputable and accurate replicas, you won't regret it.:)
 
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I don't think the ethics on recasting has ever been properly defined. It's been discussed thoroughly, and with both sides in extreme disagreement. So let me just offer a different perspective. Everything that is a prop replica and not a production original is a copy - be it first generation, second generation or beyond.

So rather than debate the semantics of the word "recast" I'd like to focus more on *how* a vendor acquired his templates. Did he do so with integrity or did he take from another prop owner or artist without their consent?

Accurate props come into the fandom one of two ways.

1. Someone takes time to sculpt something based on photos, measurements, references, etc. and produces an original work.

2. Someone makes a financial investment and purchases a production prop (be it screen-used or standby).

In the above two examples, a cost is incurred, be it a labor of love or financial.

Then there is the cost of duplication. Taking the extra steps to ensure shape integrity and casting quality requires additional costs, preparation and process.

Let's say someone sculpted a Stormtrooper or bought an original suit and offered 6 copies to recover his cost investment and financial risk. Let's say the original prop costs him $10,000 to procure and another $2,000 for duplication. The original six copies end up costing fans $2,000 each.

The typical attitude stemming from "I want, therefore I copy" tries to obtain this first generation cast and then illicitly make copies. The recaster here took no financial risk. The attitude among costume organizations I've seen is that the recaster is a hero for making it more affordable for fans, but this justification is immoral.

I also see recasters and supporters say, "Well, what gives you the right to have made copies anyway? It's all Lucasfilm property." That is a weak argument because it's limited to intellectual property, not physical property, and therefore this is a form of plagiarism or theft. Further, an artist sculpting an original sculpt is entitled to his own physical art and physical property. Anyone who tires that "It's not your property; it's Lucasfilm" argument when breaking into my home to take my Stormtrooper sculpt and I can assure you that such an individual is bound for jail for theft, period.

Another justification: "But I made improvements." If you steal someone's car and repaint the outside or alter the engine to purr better, you're still going to jail. If a recaster has the skills to sculpt improvements, why not go the whole 9 yards and sculpt an original? Better yet, the recaster should do so, then report back to us on how he felt when he saw his sculpt get illicity duplicated and sold on eBay - and selling at a fraction of the original price. The sense of robbery and violation drive collectors and sculptors away from the hobby.

"But it's not in our organization's charter to mandate against recasting. We're doing it for charity anyway, so what's the big deal?" The big deal of people exhibiting this attitude is that they'll steal and copy illicitly at someone else's expense - and so long as it's not in their "organization's charter" they got their jollies as grown men dressing up as stormtroopers. Are costuming organizations telling us it's okay for them to violate another human being, and costuming for charity somehow erases that moral violation? I wasn't born yesterday.

"But in recasting, I'm not making any money." Bull. So you're not making $500 per suit, you're making $50. But twenty suits later, that's $1,000 profit. I don't know about you, but once the vacform machine and other start-up costs are recovered, that's pure profit.

A recaster - in the sense of one involved in illicit duplication - made no contribution towards acquiring the original prop or to sculpt an original work of art - but rather took the quick route and plagiarized it without the original owner/artist's consent. Basically robbing someone to become a hero to costumers who don't want to pay the price. He might make "improvements" to try to conceal the origins of his template, and in some cases some vendors have outright lied to the public that their product is "cast off original" - so then those less studied buy into it... to later discover the deception... to later offer their stuff for sale...

... at which point they either find someone unknowledgeable enough to buy it (perpetuating the recast prop/costume) or they don't and are stuck with illicitly duplicated merchandise.
 
The recaster, Kamino-Clone, was based in England, right? vaccum_dis! is based on "DeathStar, United States." Of course, a seller doesn't necessarily have to tell the truth when filling out the Item location field.

Are you seeing that newimage58 was using the same materials (resin, color, etc.) as the AP recast?

The seller Newimage i remember was UK based too, his AP recast was a fibrelass copy and that is why i discounted him being Vacuum-Dis because Newimage never made or sold any vacuum formed helmets.

Kamino-clone/ Rick Snoman was selling vacuum formed copies of an AP helmet and armour parts, and yes he is UK based i hadn't checked Vacuum-dis on ebay so didn't realise he was stateside.
I assumed because you mentioned Newimage that he was UK.

So it would seem that it is neither of those two.
 
Since he got it here in the junkyard, I don't think it is any of the recasters mentioned, since I'm guessing most of them are not members of the RPF, at least I hope so.
 
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