The Dark Knight Rises (Post-release)

[JD]

The more I think about it, the more I dislike this movie.

How terribly uncharacteristic of Batman, who took up the fight against crime upon the death of his parents to simply up and quit and become a hermit after the death of the 'love of his life' Rachel? The 'love of his life' that the supplanted by not one, but two different characters in this movie (Miranda Tate and Selina Kyle)! That alone lessens any motives he had for his bat-hiatus.

Bats basically gets his ass handed to him by Bane. He then spend several months in prison... I'm not sure how much time he spent with bulging verterbra before it was so surgically repaired (um, yeah), but he then spent another bit of time doing push-ups and pull-ups and other-ups to "train" to fight Bane again. No real preparation to fight someone who almost killed him last time...

And then there's the unsatisfactory ending to Bane. We don't know how to kill Bane so first we'll totally demasculate him by first explaining it wasn't him that escaped the prison then we'll let you know it was all because of love that he did all this. Then because we're out of ideas, we'll just have (don't call her Catwoman) Selina Kyle off him so quick and so fast, you'll barely know what happened. You have Batman's biggest enemy, the one who broke him, basically castrated and killed in less time than it took to promote John Blake at Gordon's hospital bed (um, yeah).

Let's add in all of the Gotham PD marching into the sewers in force. No subtlety, no investigation - let's just all go in plain as day and unprepared as to what they're up against. Then, we'll drop half the city on top of them and close them up for months - and when they come out, they're well prepared to to fight the Bane army.

Good thing Bane knew exactly where Wayne and Fox kept the arsenal. They didn't even attempt to explain that one bit... Bane just knew exactly where all the Wayne military weapons (and by Wayne military weapons we mean a few Tumblers) were kept.

The more I think about it, the less I like this film. Nolan's a deceptive filmmaker - he fools people into thinking they're good movies.

 

[Darth Lars]

Saw it only two hours ago, on the opening day over here.
I'm not a fan of the Ra's Al Ghul story. I had hoped that it was over already... Give me real villains, not terrorists. Selina Kyle's character was well made and Anne Hathaway was great in that role. Gary Oldman and Michael Caine were great, as always.

Before the movie, there was a minute of silence for the victims in Denver.

 

[da wesheb]

LOL The world doesn't need the rich to run it, this statement is wrong on many levels. The world just needs responsible people to run it and it went to crap because of a maniac with a bomb.

The maniac with the bomb didn't force people to ransack homes and assault people. But you missed the point of my post altogether. It was an element that I noticed in the film, not the way I see things.

 

[Darth Lars]

Btw, Ctrl+Alt+Del - The five stages (2012-07-25)

 

[Clutch]

And then there's the unsatisfactory ending to Bane. We don't know how to kill Bane so first we'll totally demasculate him by first explaining it wasn't him that escaped the prison then we'll let you know it was all because of love that he did all this. Then because we're out of ideas, we'll just have (don't call her Catwoman) Selina Kyle off him so quick and so fast, you'll barely know what happened. You have Batman's biggest enemy, the one who broke him, basically castrated and killed in less time than it took to promote John Blake at Gordon's hospital bed (um, yeah).

Bane definitely has a ROTJ Boba Fett moment in the movie.

 

[Kerr Avon]

I took it as sometimes you just gotta shoot a guy. Even if you don't like guns.

 

[JoMamma_Smurf]

Bane definitely has a ROTJ Boba Fett moment in the movie.

He goes out way better than Boba :lol

 

[Hecubus114]

Yeah he was stopped by a blast from a gun powerful enough to blow up concrete walls - not by his own equipment malfunctioning from being knocked by a stick LOL. I thought it was a nice twist that his mask getting destroyed wasn't his ultimate undoing like they were leading up to.

 

[Jeyl]

Bane definitely has a ROTJ Boba Fett moment in the movie.

I wouldn't call it that. For one thing, Bane's demise wasn't accidental and it looked like Bane had a much better aim than Boba Fett did. Boba Fett Couldn't shoot Luke's back when he was at least 15 feet away. Bane had a double barrel shotgun pointed point blank at Batman's head and was just about to pull the trigger.

Naw, Bane is no Boba Fett. He's also not a clone.

 

[Usagi Pilgrim]

The more I think about it, the more I dislike this movie.

How terribly uncharacteristic of Batman, who took up the fight against crime upon the death of his parents to simply up and quit and become a hermit after the death of the 'love of his life' Rachel? The 'love of his life' that the supplanted by not one, but two different characters in this movie (Miranda Tate and Selina Kyle)! That alone lessens any motives he had for his bat-hiatus.

I've not really wanted to post because I feel some things are subjective & like someone has said, "Arguing about opinion is like dancing about architecture.", or something like that. But this point is what I feel is a fact & seems to be lost on people.

We all know the history of the comics & the characters. We know the big storylines & the idiosyncrasies of each of the characters & their personalities. Because of this, we go into each movie expecting it to be a live action telling or re-telling of what we're familiar with, with the knowledge that this is like the current issue or storyline, with another on the way next month, or in the case of a movie, in a few years. That's not how Nolan & Co. approached this trilogy.

Nolan wrote a complete story arc for Bruce Wayne as if the comics didn't exist. Sure he used the characters & ideas established in the comics, but he wasn't limited to the thinking that the Batman was a cash-cow, & a new story HAD to be forthcoming. He gave us realistically explained ideas in a real-world setting. He addressed what would happen to a man's body that did the things Batman did. He gave us technology that, if currently impossible, could be on the horizon, therefore plausible. That being said, he also gave us a realistic & tragically flawed hero in Bruce Wayne.

The complaint that keeps cropping up is that Bruce wouldn't just give up & quit for 8 years. In the comics, or animated series, no...he wouldn't. But this is Nolan's Bruce & Nolan's Bruce Has one total motivation in EVERYTHING he does...

He CAN NOT move on

His parents are killed- He can't move on-He spends the next years of his life waiting for the opportunity to kill their murderer.

He fails & Rachel tells him his father would be ashamed-He can't move on- So he spends the next few years training to protect the city his father protected.

He succeeds, but loses Rachel- He can't move on- Spend the next year or so being Batman with an end goal in mind...clean everything up so he & Rachel can be together.

Again he succeeds, but Rachel dies- He REALLY can't move on- Yes he took the blame for the killings & went into hiding, but it's not a stretch to think that it was also because his heart wasn't in it. He had accomplished the goal. Gotham was on the mend, but he had also lost what he personally was fighting for, & from all we saw onscreen in TDKR, there was no reason to believe he was needed during those 8 years.

That's the point of the last movie in the series. He finally moved on. He had established a symbol that will live on WHEN NEEDED. Blake will be the next Batman, but that's because Gotham is going to go through a rebuilding phase. Someone will surely try to take advantage of that, like the criminals & mobsters that will now be released because of the Dent Act repeal. Nolan's Batman doesn't just operate outside the law for his own sake. He does what the law can't to make it so they can do their jobs without being overwhelmed. When that's accomplished, he steps back.

As for Bruce, he too had taken control of his own "destiny" or happiness. It was symbolized by the fact that his outer"conscience", in the form of Alfred had left. No more outside things keeping him from moving on. He was happy for the first time & also at peace without something from the outside driving him & all his actions. He was good "in the moment".

 

[da wesheb]

Can anyone think of some Batman villains that don't fit in this Nolan universe?
For me the only three I have so far are Clayface, Poison Ivy and a true to form Man-Bat.

 

[JD]

Bane definitely has a ROTJ Boba Fett moment in the movie.

Not really. Bane was the outright second "star" of the film... Boba was always just a bit player.

 

[CessnaDriver]

I'm a little fuzzy on Waynes public status at the end.
They show a tombstone for him, yet he appears in public.

So what does the world know right now?

 

[JD]

We all know the history of the comics & the characters. We know the big storylines & the idiosyncrasies of each of the characters & their personalities. Because of this, we go into each movie expecting it to be a live action telling or re-telling of what we're familiar with, with the knowledge that this is like the current issue or storyline, with another on the way next month, or in the case of a movie, in a few years. That's not how Nolan & Co. approached this trilogy.

Nolan wrote a complete story arc for Bruce Wayne as if the comics didn't exist.

I don't expect a literal translation of the comic book hero from page to film. There's so many versions of the comic book Batman, you can't often can't narrow it down to one version. I expect certain traits and motives to remain true to the character, but I know that the transition from panel to screen that certain liberties need to be taken - including the director/writer to have their own artistic licenses.

I don't think the writers of these films wrote a complete story arc at all. Somewhere along the way they decided to make it into a trilogy and they tried to link some thing's together.

Sure he used the characters & ideas established in the comics, but he wasn't limited to the thinking that the Batman was a cash-cow, & a new story HAD to be forthcoming.

HAD to be...? I'm not sure what you're referencing at all. I think a great movie could be made being much more true to the Batman/Wayne character and mythos. I think the truth is Nolan's ego got in the way... and as his success grew, he took greater liberties with the Bat characters.

The Bat franchise is undoubtedly a cash cow and Nolan is reaping the benefits. Nolan's career didn't start with it, but he's definitely cemented his success with the franchise... without a doubt in my mind, this movie was built for marketing and to siphon success from the Dark Knight.

He gave us realistically explained ideas in a real-world setting. He addressed what would happen to a man's body that did the things Batman did. He gave us technology that, if currently impossible, could be on the horizon, therefore plausible. That being said, he also gave us a realistic & tragically flawed hero in Bruce Wayne.

I'll just giggle and say I respectfully disagree. Darker does not mean realisitic and Nolan's Wayne/Batman is just as real as Burton's or West's for that matter.

The complaint that keeps cropping up is that Bruce wouldn't just give up & quit for 8 years. In the comics, or animated series, no...he wouldn't. But this is Nolan's Bruce & Nolan's Bruce Has one total motivation in EVERYTHING he does...

Maybe you saw a different movie than I did... maybe you know a different Batman than I do. For a guy who couldn't "move on," he sure did with two different women in DKR - that doesn't line up at all with your reasoning.

The movie also implies that Batman is no longer needed because the Dent Act got rid of organized crime (in fact, I think it's stated in the print meant to support the movie release)... again, as I said before Batman isn't just about fighting organized crime, it's about the little crimes. The robberies and murders committed by guys like Joe Chill (ala Batman Begins).

 

[Nexus6]

Can anyone think of some Batman villains that don't fit in this Nolan universe?
For me the only three I have so far are Clayface, Poison Ivy and a true to form Man-Bat.

Killer Croc
Mr. Freeze

There's probably quite a few I'm not thinking of...

 

[CessnaDriver]

Nolan had him quit because I think he needed to in order to mirror Miller's The Dark Knight Returns "retirement" of Batman though of course that was in his fifties, not thirties.
And the ending is in the spirit of Dark Knight Returns. A fake death, new blood taking on the mission.

Nolan used either directly or thematically in spirt selected high points of Batman comic lore for these films.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Poison Ivy and Mr. Freeze could easily be in Nolan's Batman universe if getting a similar treatment as Bane did to make them more realistic.

Ivy kills, seduces and gets what she wants by using her knowledge of herbology.

Mr. Freeze is using his knowledge of cryogenics to get what he needs to protect and save his wife.

Both can be made realistic very easily.

 

[Usagi Pilgrim]

Ok...well, point by point, from my view-

It was a complete Batman arc. We saw the conception, career, & end of the Bruce Wayne iteration of the character. Complete.

When I said a new story HAD to be forthcoming, I was referring to the comics. Without a new story, a new issue doesn't get published & no new revenue that month. I agree that Nolan is reaping the benefits of the franchise, but I see nothing that said he took on the project to cement his success.

As far as Burton's Batman, which I enjoyed, This Bruce wasn't sleeping upside down to emulate a bat & didn't "scratch" a CD to show how hip he was. As for West & the subject of realism, I'll see your giggle & raise you a full on belly laugh.

I don't see how a one night stand with Talia could ever be considered moving on. As far as Selina, He HAD moved on from being Batman, therefore COULD have a relationship with her.

Lastly, read my post again. Batman WAS needed. Hence Blake taking up the mantle, but this was a NEW situation. You need to separate Nolan's Batman with the comic or animated Batman. This Batman had one goal...clean up Gotham by fixing the big picture like his father. The organized crime scene had made things in the city so bad, the cops couldn't catch up. They were in over their heads so the Joe Chills of the city ran rampant. Pretty much all of the cops had the attitude of "What's the point in doing anything ?". That's what made Gordan different. They accomplished their goal with the Dent Act so he WASN"T needed for those 8 years. Bane happened, He stopped him, passed the responsibility to Blake, & MOVED ON.

Batman (Blake) is now needed again because, as I said, Things are rebuilding. The mob bosses will be out again & will try to take advantage of the situation, not to mention any other criminals that are out. But this Batman isn't out looking for small-time crooks just to keep himself busy. That's the cops job. He's doing the big pictur things they don't have the manpower or resources to do.

Hope this clears up my position.

 

[JD]

Ok...well, point by point, from my view-

It was a complete Batman arc. We saw the conception, career, & end of the Bruce Wayne iteration of the character. Complete.

I'll agree it was AN arc. I just don't think the story was written all at once or that they knew what the third movie was going to be about during the first or second movies.

As far as Burton's Batman, which I enjoyed, This Bruce wasn't sleeping upside down to emulate a bat & didn't "scratch" a CD to show how hip he was. As for West & the subject of realism, I'll see your giggle & raise you a full on belly laugh.

If you don't think the West era's Batman's gadget's were pretty on par with Nolan's Bat-gadgets. The Auxiliary Circuit Bat-generator is pretty much an EMP, Batmobile's Nuclear Power Source is the fusion thing. ...and well, Giant hydraulic bat-press that makes diamonds in six months, well, that's just silly... but so is the bat sonar we saw in The Dark Knight.

...and yup, hanging upside down like a bat is ridiculous. I mean, it's not like Walmart would sell something so absurd.

I don't see how a one night stand with Talia could ever be considered moving on. As far as Selina, He HAD moved on from being Batman, therefore COULD have a relationship with her.

Maybe it's just the way I feel about things. But, if you're so hung on a woman that you become a recluse and give up crimefighting in a bat suit that a one night stand and an implied potential relationship does constitute moving on to me.

 

[Usagi Pilgrim]

Fair enough JD. I appreciate the discussion.

I do feel that since the Talia & Selina incidents happened after Alfred told Bruce the truth about Rachel, was beginning to move on. He had spent 8 years believing that her death robbed him of his reward, you could say. Then Alfred hits him with the truth & maybe he realized that it WAS time to move on. He didn't know Talia's true intention at the time, & in hindsight, the whole affair could have been a tactic on her part to get close to Bruce before the plan was implemented. Not seeing the forest for the trees, so to speak.

And yes, I know that inversion tables exist, but they are NOT recommended for sleeping. It's just IMO a corny way of saying, "OOHH... he sleeps upside down! He was DESTINED to be the Batman!"