Just wanted to throw this in for s$&ts and giggles.
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Ben
Minor quibble, but that's Luke in ESB. You can tell by Mark Hamill's face, and by the fact that his suit has the puffy collar.
Thank you, Axlotl. You are right. My wish was merely to vent about my disgust with the film. Not to troll those who like it. Heck, I wasn't even trying to convince people to see it my way. But my expressed opinions drew some nasty responses, asking me to leave the thread, calling me a misogynist, a sexist, etc. So I engaged my attackers. But then I got piled onto, because I'm clearly outnumbered in this thread. I thought Bryancd and everyone strongly wanted ALL comments, positive or negative, in this master thread. But that isn't true. No dissenters allowed, here.
The Wook
The misogyny comments were because you dismissed Rey as just some embodiment of Hollywood's liberal agenda. While the comment itself isn't necessarily misogynist, the underlying attitude that the comment conveys can be taken that way. It suggests that Rey being female and having that much power is somehow inappropriate
because she's female. By calling out the liberal agenda, your comment can be taken to suggest that it's her femininity
coupled with her power that is objectionable, and that it's
only done to serve the liberal agenda...and that's where the misogyny comes in.
You don't seem troubled by the fact that both Luke and Anakin have fantastic power with next to no training (or, in Anakin's case, zero training), which calls into question whether your issue is with a character having apparently unlimited power, or with a
girl character having unlimited power. And you seem to discount, ignore, or simply missed the fact that the filmmakers lampshaded the mystery of the source of Rey's abilities
and the fact that they're way, way more than what we should expect. When Rey is, herself, stunned at how well she flew the Falcon, or doesn't understand why Finn doesn't speak droid, or where she seems surprised that JB-007 accedes to her demands, etc., those are all attempts to demonstrate that her power is (a) unexpected, and (b) as-yet unexplained. She's a mystery and a surprise waiting to be revealed. Or, at least, that's what I think the goal is with how she's been written and played.
Now, if your complaint is that
no character should ever be that powerful under any circumstances, ok, fine. Go ahead and make that point. But that has nothing to do with any liberal agenda. That has to do with general concepts of storytelling and the fact that, whether it's with a blond, white boy, or an East Asian woman, or whatever, characters shouldn't be inexplicably powerful.
If your complaint is that the filmmakers didn't effectively convey that Rey's abilities are totally unexpected, strange, and mysterious, and that the source of those abilities -- and their presumed limits -- will be explored in later films, cool, go ahead and make that complaint. But, again, that's got nothing to do with any liberal agenda. Again, that's more about ineffective storytelling.
The fact that you couched your complaint in the realm of liberal agenda, though, suggests that your objection is not with a character -- any character -- being too powerful, nor with the ineffective storytelling conveying any sense that further limitations will be explored or that the source of the power will be explained or that it's at all remarkable, but rather with the fact that
it's a girl who is powerful. That's why people called you out on the misogyny stuff.
They'd call you out on racism if you said something like "The only reason Finn knows how to wield a lightsabre is because he's black and it serves Hollywood's liberal agenda."
Now, I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your main objections aren't with Rey being a woman, but rather with "Mary Sue/Gary Stu" (or, more accurately "competent men/women" -- see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competent_man) characters in general, and that the filmmakers didn't -- for you -- effectively convey that this character isn't a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, but rather is someone who has both limitations, and an explanation for the source of her amazing abilities, all of which will be explored in subsequent entries in the series.
If that's the case, you might want to drop the whole "liberal agenda" thing, because all it does is lead people to dismiss what otherwise might be legitimate points (or at least points worth debating, and which won't trip the "no politics" rule here) and write you off altogether. I tend to think that the whole "Bah, it's just the liberal agenda" thing is unfortunate and inaccurate shorthand for "I didn't like it" that ultimately
may in fact mask what the viewer is really bothered by.
Are you bothered that it's a
girl with power, or are you bothered that it's a character with Swiss-army-knife fantastic powers and no suitable explanation for their source? Because those are two different things.
Oh I get the business angle of it. And there's no denying it's a commercial mega-hit. But they played it waaaaaaaaay too safe, in making it waaaaaaaaay too derivative (a nicer word for ripoff). I'd be kinda okay if they'd made a good derivative film, but it stinks. It stinks from top to bottom...with just a handful of pearls in between: Daisy (not Rey's absurd powers, but Daisy's performance), BB8, Finn (although his humor bordered on being too much), Chewie getting up to play Dejarik, Luke was awesome at the end (he looks totally badass), I loved the "That was Lucky!" line as well as the "Stop holding my hand!" lines (see I told you I like girl power!), Kylo's fits of rage, the lightsaber duel choreography looked old school like the weapons were heavy instead of twirling batons, the TIE fighters flying towards us with the sun behind them, 3PO stepping between Han & Leia was funny, the laser blast halted in mid-flight was cool and novel...I really can't think of anything or anyone else that was good, and I've seen the movie twice.
The filmmakers could've accomplished everything you listed that they needed to accomplish and turned out a better, a MUCH better derivative to reboquel the series.
The Wook
There was a point where I might have agreed with you on this. But I think that you underestimate how people who
aren't hardcore Star Wars fans relate to the Star Wars universe. For folks like that, they know...very little about the franchise, actually. And I don't even mean the ephemera that geeks like us know (e.g. "It's not an X-wing. It's an Incom T-65B X-wing, and the wings are called S-foils because the internal mechanics actually are somewhat S-shaped at the central hinge to allow the top half of the left wing to form the bottom half of the right wing..."). I'm talking, like, they know only the must superficial aspects of the series. They know the broadest cultural iconography about the film, and mostly from generalized images. Bad guys wear all-black and helmets and use red laser swords. Good guys use blue laser swords. Han Solo has a big furry wookiee pal named Chewbacca, and they fly the Milennium Falcon spaceship. Princess Leia has funny hair, usually in a cinnamon-bun shape. Final battles involve fighter spaceships blowing up a big, super-destructive space station, and the hero always --
always -- has some secret about their ancestry. They know "LUKE I AM YOUR FATHER" (even though they misquote it), even if they've never even seen the film.
And that's it. That's what they know. That's
all they really know, or at least that's what they
most know at the core.
When you strip those elements out -- particularly in the modern age -- you have what is now just a generic space adventure story. The stuff I listed is what makes Star Wars "star warsy" for the bulk of the populace.
We, the hardcore fans, recognize that there's so much more to it than that, but for the people who are casual fans, who don't know the full scope of the Star Wars universe or its potential, it's those things that say "Star Wars" to people on an unconscious level. The rest of it, the adventure elements, the blaster guns, the spaceships, references to mystical powers, etc., it's become so baked in to the popular culture and genre fiction in general that it linfluences damn-near everything else out there, to the point where people will say stuff like "
Jupiter Ascending is basically just
Star Wars with genetically modified dudes on hoverskates."
In order to bring people along into the new era -- to take the Star Wars universe and move it beyond just the original trilogy that everyone knows -- I think they had to take this film and heavily ground it in the iconography that everyone knows. And yes, that means TFA is a "soft reboot." And it therefore suffers from the same problems that
all reboots do: how to distinguish themselves from their predecessors, while still remaining "of" the predecessors. In some limited cases, a franchise can effectively reboot itself by
subverting expected tropes (e.g.,
Casino Royale and Bond not giving a damn whether his martini is shaken or stirred, limited gadgetry, only saying "Bond. James Bond" at the end of the film), but for the most part, any reboot has to still "feel" like the original material in a recognizable way. And TFA was purposefully designed to "feel" like Star Wars to the absolute broadest swath of the audience as possible, meaning that it definitely targets a "lowest common denominator" version of what Star Wars is. And hence, the "repetition" in the film from the previous films.
That said, I think it's (unfortunately) easy to get caught up in what was repeated, to the point where you miss what was definitely
different about this film -- and different in what I think was a good way. But, regardless, it's undeniably repetitive of previous films, and absolutely was done that way on purpose.
I think, basically, that our choices were either (1) a wonderful financial failure of a film that would effectively kill the franchise (or kill it within 1-3 films), where the film was notably different from the original material to the point where it didn't really reference it at all, or (2) basically what we got.
As a soft reboot, I think this film is about as good as you could ask for or expect. If what you wanted wasn't a soft reboot, but rather a totally different story in the future of the universe...yeah, I guess you were gonna end up disappointed.
Cool! Nice to know they're following the fan theories. I just hope that nobody succumbs to the desire to "fool" the audience or prove they're more clever than the audience. I hate when writers leave a trail of fairly obvious breadcrumbs to the solution of a mystery, and then say "We changed it because too many people figured out where we were going."