Star Trek Into Darkness (Pre-release)

Jeyl said:
So how does that explain "Yesterday's Enterprise" where time travel DOES affect the reality you're in? Or First Contact?
Click to expand...

"Yesterday's Enterprise"

Original Timeline A:

2344: Enterprise C responds to distress call at Narendra III. The Klingon outpost is saved, however the Enterprise C is destroyed in the battle. Solidifies Klingon peace treaty with the Federation.

2364: Tasha Yar is killed during rescue mission on Vagra II ("Skin of Evil")

2366: Enterprise D on route to Archer IV stops to investigate a strange phenomenom in space.


Alternate Timeline A 0.1:

2344: Enterprise C responds to a distress call at Narendra III. During the battle, a rip in the time/space continuum is created from the exchange of photon torpedoes. The Enterprise C is drawn in and removed from the battle. This creates...

Alternate Timeline B:

With the disappearance of the Enterprise C, the Klingon outpost Narendra III is destroyed. War between the Federation and Klingon Empire escalates.

2364: Tasha Yar serves as Enterprise D security chief. Enterprise D never visits Vagra II. Yar is never killed.

2366: Enterprise D stops to investigate a strange phenomenom in space, in time to witness the emergence of the Enterprise C. Eventually the Enterprise C (with alternate Tasha Yar on board) returns to 2344 by going back through the temporal rift. This creates...


Alternate Timeline C:

2344: The Enterprise C is once again successful in saving the Narendra III outpost from destruction. However the Romulans take prisoners including the alternate Tasha Yar (call her 2.0). Yar 2.0 is "married" to a Romulan General and they have a Romulan/human child "Sela."


2349: Tasha Yar (2.0) is executed after attempting to escape with her daughter Sela


2364: Tasha Yar (1.0) is killed during mission to Vagra II


2366: Enterprise D encounters a strange phenomenon in space, however the phenomenom only lasts a few moments then closes in on itself. Enterprise D continues on route to Archer IV.

2367: Sela is involved in the Klingon civil war while attempting to aid the Duras sisters ("Redemption" pts 1&2).

2368: Sela involved in an attempted invasion of Vulcan by Romulus ("Unification" pts 1&2)


--------------

Before the events of "Yesterday's Enterprise", "Sela" did not exist. So if "Yesterday's Enterprise" didn't happen, Timeline A would have continued "without" Tasha Yar becoming a prisoner on Romulus, giving birth to Sela, and ultimately the events of "Redemption" and "Unification" would not take place (at least not the way they played out that we saw).

After "Yesterday's Enterprise" the entire series is in an alternate timeline, in which a 29 year old alternate Tasha Yar gives birth to Sela at a time when the original Tasha Yar was only seven years old.

So-

Original Timeline A = no Sela

Alternate Timeline C = Sela exists



Kevin
 
Last edited:
I've been hesitant to watch any clips or click the spoiler tags as I've wanted to keep things a surprise...

I'm kind of glad I went ahead and did read them anyway, because just as Michael said a while back, if I hadn't I would have jumped up in the theater and said "WTF IS THIS?!?"

So ultimately I guess...


JJ remade Space Seed, not Wrath of Khan

I can live with that. :lol


Kevin
 
SSgt Burton said:
I've been hesitant to watch any clips or click the spoiler tags as I've wanted to keep things a surprise...

I'm kind of glad I went ahead and did read them anyway, because just as Michael said a while back, if I hadn't I would have jumped up in the theater and said "WTF IS THIS?!?"

So ultimately I guess...


JJ remade Space Seed, not Wrath of Khan

I can live with that. :lol


Kevin
Click to expand...

Which would make sense given the timeline of events these characters live in, and likely will make for a better story anyway. It's theatrically looks like a beautiful film from the clips we got. The action seems to be there and Cumber-man is an excellent actor! I'm just afraid that if the rumors are true as to who the villian is and who his is working for, and who are behind them, this may turn into a rushed mash-up, clustered bit of a story.

- - - Updated - - -

SSgt Burton said:
"Yesterday's Enterprise"

Original Timeline A:

2344: Enterprise C responds to distress call at Narendra III. The Klingon outpost is saved, however the Enterprise C is destroyed in the battle. Solidifies Klingon peace treaty with the Federation.

2364: Tasha Yar is killed during rescue mission on Vagra II ("Skin of Evil")

2366: Enterprise D on route to Archer IV stops to investigate a strange phenomenom in space.


Alternate Timeline A 0.1:

2344: Enterprise C responds to a distress call at Narendra III. During the battle, a rip in the time/space continuum is created from the exchange of photon torpedoes. The Enterprise C is drawn in and removed from the battle. This creates...

Alternate Timeline B:

With the disappearance of the Enterprise C, the Klingon outpost Narendra III is destroyed. War between the Federation and Klingon Empire escalates.

2364: Tasha Yar serves as Enterprise D security chief. Enterprise D never visits Vagra II. Yar is never killed.

2366: Enterprise D stops to investigate a strange phenomenom in space, in time to witness the emergence of the Enterprise C. Eventually the Enterprise C (with alternate Tasha Yar on board) returns to 2344 by going back through the temporal rift. This creates...


Alternate Timeline C:

2344: The Enterprise C is once again successful in saving the Narendra III outpost from destruction. However the Romulans take prisoners including the alternate Tasha Yar (call her 2.0). Yar 2.0 is "married" to a Romulan General and they have a Romulan/human child "Sela."


2349: Tasha Yar (2.0) is executed after attempting to escape with her daughter Sela


2364: Tasha Yar (1.0) is killed during mission to Vagra II


2366: Enterprise D encounters a strange phenomenon in space, however the phenomenom only lasts a few moments then closes in on itself. Enterprise D continues on route to Archer IV.

2367: Sela is involved in the Klingon civil war while attempting to aid the Duras sisters ("Redemption" pts 1&2).

2368: Sela involved in an attempted invasion of Vulcan by Romulus ("Unification" pts 1&2)


--------------

Before the events of "Yesterday's Enterprise", "Sela" did not exist. So if "Yesterday's Enterprise" didn't happen, Timeline A would have continued "without" Tasha Yar becoming a prisoner on Romulus, giving birth to Sela, and ultimately the events of "Redemption" and "Unification" would not take place (at least not the way they played out that we saw).

After "Yesterday's Enterprise" the entire series is in an alternate timeline, in which a 29 year old alternate Tasha Yar gives birth to Sela at a time when the original Tasha Yar was only seven years old.

So-

Original Timeline A = no Sela

Alternate Timeline C = Sela exists



Kevin
Click to expand...

This is the point I have been trying to make! Except now, with Nero doing what he did, Picard may NEVER be captain of the Enterprise D. Tasha may never be born, Worf may have grown up in the Klingon Empire, Tuvok may have died on Vulcan when it exploded!, etc.

Whereas Alternate Timeline C had (relatively) little impact to the timeline in TNG, Nero's impact was major!
 
Michael Bergeron said:
Tuvok may have died on Vulcan when it exploded!

I'm surprisingly okay with this... :lol
Click to expand...

I need to spread some more rep around before I can get back to you for this one! (I tried)

All and all, I am looking forward to seeing this one. My wife and daughter are not, so I'll likely pop for the 3D showing. I't looks like a fun ride. I'm intrigued enough to drop cash on seeing it.

I know I have expressed feelings on the re-boot as to the timeline, (And I am sticking to my guns! They're my guns and I'll stick to them if I want to) but I did like the last one, (Though it was a rough re-make of Star Wars ANH) and I am looking forward to this one.
 
From what I'm seeing, looks like they are trying hard to make this a cookie cutter repeat of the first movie in a few ways.
Why is Kirk running around in his black shirt all scraped up again? I guess it worked so well the first time the studio said lets find a way to do that again!
At this point, I'm more pumped for Iron Man 3 and Man Of Steel, which is a shame because Trek is my thing..
 
NakedMoleRat said:
This is the point I have been trying to make!
Click to expand...

Interesting given that I wrote my post trying to explain three separate, alternate realities and not "one" reality that has been irrevocably altered.

Except now, with Nero doing what he did, Picard may NEVER be captain of the Enterprise D. Tasha may never be born, Worf may have grown up in the Klingon Empire, Tuvok may have died on Vulcan when it exploded!, etc.
Click to expand...

Sure they will. Just put in your TNG and Voyager dvds and watch them. ;)

But seriously... there is over a 100 year difference between the TOS and TNG eras... do you think we will get enough JJ movies to "catch up" and find out if you are right?


Whereas Alternate Timeline C had (relatively) little impact to the timeline in TNG, Nero's impact was major!
Click to expand...

The alternate TNG timeline introduced a new villain. That's "little" impact? I don't know about that.


The point I was trying to make is that in the case of TNG's Yesterday's Enterprise it is 3 alternate realities and not one that has been re-written/erased (which is what I took from your posts NMR). The reason it appears as "one" reality is that we were perceiving the episode from the audience's point of view- that is to say, we overtly saw the changes and knew the differences.

In the case of JJTrek, I believe we are perceiving it from the character's point of view, in which we basically are already in the alternate universe from the get go. There is no ripple effect that cues when the original reality ends and the alternate begins (such as seen in the beginning of "Yesterday's Enterprise" just after the Enterprise C emerges from the rift in space). It isn't overt.


But it seems that what you are arguing (which was argued about in 2008 before Trek'09 came out) is that we will "never" return to the original reality where things will play out as a carbon copy of the TOS and TNG that we know.

This I agree with. The original reality is still "out there", but from a story telling point of view we are not going to return to it. "I'm" okay with that, so long as the JJTrek reality does not become some crazy Bizzarro-land in which characters say "hello" when they leave the room. :lol

I simply no longer pine for a rehash of everything that has come before.

Will Cumberbatch replace Montalban for me?

Of course not!

No one will replace Montalban's stellar performance in WOK for me.

This is a different take on the same character. From what I've seen, I like Cumberbatch's acting. But nothing has been "replaced" as this is occuring in an alternate universe.


Kevin
 
NakedMoleRat said:
This is the point I have been trying to make! Except now, with Nero doing what he did, Picard may NEVER be captain of the Enterprise D. Tasha may never be born, Worf may have grown up in the Klingon Empire, Tuvok may have died on Vulcan when it exploded!, etc.

Whereas Alternate Timeline C had (relatively) little impact to the timeline in TNG, Nero's impact was major!
Click to expand...


Here is how I can reconcile the multiple, unharmed timelines thing:

The way I see it, once you introduce time travel, you create variations in the timeline both so severe and so subtle that going back to whatever timeline you came from is virtually impossible. It may be that whatever timeline you *do* wind up in is so close to your original one that you will never perceive the difference, but once you jump out of time, you basically have zero chance of jumping back into the "original" one. In other words, the ONLY original timeline of Star Trek is that which exists prior to any time travel plots. Every time the various crews traveled through time, they kept "jumping tracks," so to speak, even if the scenery looked virtually the same to us most of the time.

The point being, the very last (in show chronology) Trek story takes place in a vastly different timeline / universe than the first (and this also explains the suck-factor of Insurrection and Nemesis -- they exist in a timeline created by First Contact in which Star Trek stories are just inferior :lol ).

So in that regard, the Spock Prime timeline is forever gone... to Spock Prime. It still exists, but he has virtually no chance of ever returning to it. Now, since he knows the theory of time travel, he could very well try to return to it, or at least hit one "close enough." However, I don't think he would want to. Or rather, he would desire it, but logically would reject it. As he stated at the end of JJTrek 1, he, too, is one of the few remaining Vulcans and he perceives that he has an opportunity to serve the needs of the many by helping to rebuild his race.
 
I reconcile the timelines by not thinking about it too much. It's all a fictional universe anyway. Sometimes, when you're making it up as you go along, all the pieces don't match. And that's ok.
 
And of course the alternate timeline that Sisko created when he went back in time, thus ressurecting the tribble race that had been exterminated by the Klingon Empire!
 
Amen Kevin.

Ricardo OWNED that character as much as Shatner, Nimoy, Kelly owned theirs!
 
Bryancd said:
No it's not as per Empire's film review today..
"Kirk given orders to forgo a fair trial (“I’m gonna run this ******* down”) and terminate Harrison with Star Trek’s version of extreme prejudice — undetectable photon torpedoes."
Click to expand...

Some things I took note of.
1. They're going after Harrison on the Klingon home world. Judging from the clips we've seen so far, Kirk is executing this operation in a way that won't start a war with the Klingons. And since they lose the Klingon ship that pursues them instead of destroying it, I don't think Kirk is going to fire on any Klingon warbirds (HA!) with their torpedoes.
2. Kirk does not kill Harrison despite the "extreme prejudice" approach he was granted, so why would he use the torpedoes in any other fashion?
3. What's the point of undetectable photon torpedoes? Aren't ships capable of detecting whether or not a vessel has "locked" it's weapons onto yours? And knowing that a torpedo is coming straight at you has never really helped anyone in past depictions of Star Trek, including the last one.
4. Admiral Marcus is the guy who gives Kirk the go ahead to execute Harrison. He's also the guy who gives Kirk those torpedoes. He is also commanding the Dreadnaught Class starship USS Vengeance. I think he's a bad guy. Why would he give Kirk newly designed torpedoes that could not only be used against him, but also possibly fall into Klingon hands?
 
Apollo said:
Amen Kevin.

Ricardo OWNED that character as much as Shatner, Nimoy, Kelly owned theirs!
Click to expand...
I dunno, dude. I love the original cast and DeForest Kelley was amazing... Karl Urban does one hell of a job with the character as well. Not selling Kelley short at all... it's just Urban's impressed me unlike anyone in a Trek uniform in a long, long time.
 
JD said:
I dunno, dude. I love the original cast and DeForest Kelley was amazing... Karl Urban does one hell of a job with the character as well. Not selling Kelley short at all... it's just Urban's impressed me unlike anyone in a Trek uniform in a long, long time.
Click to expand...

I agree, Urban WAS McCoy!
 
Regarding the "nuTrek" timeline and the continued existence of the "Prime" timeline: time travel in and of itself in the Trek tv/movie universe hasn't been neccessarily internally consistent(the Voyager stuff particularly is headache inducing). Christopher L. Bennett's Trek novel "Stek Trek Department of Temporal Investigations: Watching the Clock" serves as a way to acknowledge and perhaps reconcile the various methods of time travel used, as well as "rules" of it. And his website has extensive annotations for the novel. In particular:

"The discussion here is implicitly my explanation for how the alternate timeline established in the 2009 Star Trek feature film (ST'09) can coexist alongside the original timeline without eradicating it, even while other alternate timelines have been shown to replace the original one. Nero and Spock Prime made a one-way journey into the past, so there was no reciprocal exchange of matter, energy, or information. The "phase resonance" idea is a very simplified description of a concept derived from the Quantum Decoherence page at Quantum Decoherence. In the "Decoherence in an Ensemble of Particles" section at the end of the article, it discusses how interference (interaction) between quantum states (timelines) is represented by the "off-diagonal" terms in the probability density matrix representing the two combined states, and shows how those off-diagonal terms average out to zero, meaning that the two states go completely out of phase. This is another way of expressing what I discussed above about divergent timelines continuing to diverge further until they're completely isolated from one another.
My thinking here is that if you go back in time and create a new timeline, you "imprint" your own timeline's phase on it just a bit. As you breathe, as you shed skin and hair and leave oils on the things you touch, you leave particles from your own timeline behind in the new one even if you return afterward. So the new timeline retains a slight entanglement with the old one and the off-diagonal phase terms don't go completely to zero because of the extra particles. So because the wave equation of the altered timeline retains a slight echo of the equation of the original one, there are resonances that cause the equations to evolve similarly -- i.e. events can happen similarly, the same people can be born, etc. This could explain some of the extraordinary coincidences in ST'09. But if there's a mutual exchange, then both timelines' equations contain phase terms from the other, so the resonance is mutual and causes a reinforcing feedback loop that draws the two timelines together.
Keep in mind that this is fictional. The underlying idea is that, if any two things interact, they become part of the same quantum system (i.e. they become entangled) and must be treated as a unified whole. So if two timelines interact, they become a single quantum system and their fates are joined. This is where you run into a bit of a conundrum. On the one hand, quantum information theory says that if two timelines entangle, they functionally become one and must have a single measurement history, which argues that they would converge and that one would vanish in favor of the other. On the other hand, thermodynamics and particle physics say that it's all but impossible for two out-of-phase timelines to reconverge again. For the purposes of this novel, I resolve the contradiction by postulating "anti-time" as a negative-entropy fudge factor. In reality, I think the explanation is that quantum entanglement can be broken. Maybe if you went into another timeline, it would be entangled with your own for the duration of the interaction, but once the interaction ended, decoherence would set in and the two timelines would go their separate ways again. (And that's assuming that there even are multiple timelines at all, which I'm agnostic about.) "

The nuTrek universe isn't specifically mentioned in the novel itself, but the concepts expressed above are meant to explain how such an event can occur. A good read for Trek fans who obsess over such details, and it actually is a more satisying end to the 'Temporal Cold War" than what Enterprise was able to muster. We find out who "Future Guy" is...
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

dascoyne
Happy Birthday Bea Arthur (May 13, 1922 – April 25, 2009)
Replies
2
Views
910
blewis17
blewis17
turner3d
Trek TOS Communicator: Animated Moiré Plans on the Cheap
Replies
10
Views
2,037
Trooper_trent
Trooper_trent
Macnmike
Chang Concept Tri-Corder
Replies
0
Views
1,068
Macnmike
Macnmike
wayouteast
Star Trek original series (and associated movies) communicators - FINISHED
Replies
4
Views
2,826
WinstonWolf359
WinstonWolf359
asalaw
Confessions of a Star Trek Prop Nerd
Replies
9
Views
2,182
Ronldheld
Ronldheld
Back
Top