Star Trek Into Darkness (Pre-release)

[DARTH SABER]

In regard to the science aspect , which the last JJ trek got a lot of flack for, I find it a bit funny that many of the fans who complain about the science believe that the old timeline has been wiped out.
being such long time sci-fi trek fans you would think they'd know what an "alternate reality" is.

 

[Solo4114]

I think you can make the argument that the PRESENCE of action isn't the point, but rather how the action is used. Action that actually helps develop the characters or which later informs on their decisions is "thoughtful" action. Action which exists purely for spectacle or to stick in a chase sequence is just "rollercoaster" action.

On balance, I'd say that Trek II had plenty of action, but the bulk of it was "thoughtful" action. The opening sequence sets up Kirk's attitude of never having been through a scenario where he had to accept loss. Plus, he's dealing with aging and his own sense of mortality. The bits with Chekov and Terrel, as well as the Reliant set up the action of the end of the film. Khan can't challenge Kirk on an even footing without a Federation ship under his control. The Mutaran Nebula battle with Khan activating the Genesis device necessitate's Spock's sacrifice, which forces Kirk to FINALLY confront his no-win scenario.


My recollection of Trek '09 was that there were a bunch of thrilling action sequences, most of which I can't really remember because they were happening so quickly, and they didn't really seem to have a HUGE impact on the characters. I'd say, however, that this is less a failure of the action itself to be important, and more a failure of the characterization and how the characters themselves grow and change (to wit, very little, or at most an incremental change rather than a major impact) in response to that action. My recollection is that there are really only two sequences where the action has a concrete, lasting impact on Kirk or Spock: (1) Kirk meeting old Spock in the cave, which only comes about as a serendipitous result of the action, rather than being action itself informing upon Kirk, and (2) when Kirk challenges Spock and gets him to lose his cool. The latter does seem to have a meaningful impact on the character of Spock (and puts Kirk in the captain's chair although he still seems like the same old jerk).

Trek '09 action is more like what you'd see in Raiders of the Lost Ark. The action doesn't have a lot of meaning or impact. It's just a vehicle to move the characters from point to point. That's not a bad thing, mind you, it's just something different from what Trek had been, and I think it opens itself up to being criticized for "dumbing down" Trek.

 

[DARTH SABER]

Sgt burton is correct about the balance between thought provicking scenes and and action.
It's hard to sell the sci fi genre on the big screen without ramping up the the money shots. After all they need to have a reason for people to pay money for a franchise that was otherwise free on TV.
The other issue is a TV budget vs a movie budget. Television always has a limited budget and needs to compensate action with other elements.

 

[Jeyl]

Please help me understand how this is not considered an "action" oriented film as opposed to an intellectual journey?

I never stated nor intended to imply that Star Trek II was an intellectual journey. I was simply trying to make a point that labeling the movie as just an action film is disingenuous. There are at most two action scenes where our characters are thrown into real life and death struggles. I would go so far as to describe neither of these sequences as being fast paced, non-stop action like the scenes we got in JJ's film. They have a cadence to them.

 

[SSgt Burton]

My recollection of Trek '09 was that there were a bunch of thrilling action sequences, most of which I can't really remember because they were happening so quickly, and they didn't really seem to have a HUGE impact on the characters.

I have to disagree- The opening sequence of the Narada's attack on the Kelvin shapes Kirk's life. He grows up fatherless. I would call that having a significant impact on a character's developement and not action for the sake of action.

And he wasn't exactly the "same old jerk" once he took command of the Enterprise-

Kirk during the Kobayashi Maru test demands that Uhura call him "Captain." He is cocky and arrogant.

Once Spock relieves himself of command, Uhura turns to Kirk and says, "I hope you know what you're doing Captain." (Emphasis on "captain" referring back to the Kobayashi Maru when she neglected to call him that)-

Kirk's response is along the lines of "So do I." The cockiness and arrogance is gone. He is truly in charge now and knows that everyone's lives hang in the balance.

That is growth.


Kevin

 

[Jeyl]

In regard to the science aspect , which the last JJ trek got a lot of flack for, I find it a bit funny that many of the fans who complain about the science believe that the old timeline has been wiped out.
being such long time sci-fi trek fans you would think they'd know what an "alternate reality" is.

Here's the problem. With the exception of that call out to the "alternate reality" bit on the bridge, everyone treats this whole scenario as if it was just time travel. If the alternate reality was indeed the real deal, why does Prime Spock that the Vulcan he watched being destroyed was his home? According to the alternate reality deal, he should very well know that his real home is safe in his reality.

Another problem is that Star Trek has depicted time travel changing the reality that our characters inhabit. Yesterday's Enterprise, Star Trek First Contact, and the Deep Space Nine two-parter all used different methods of time travel which resulted in a change to their reality, not a shift into a new one.

Fans just need something a bit more tangible rather than a "take my word for it" theory from NuSpock.

 

[SSgt Burton]

There are at most two action scenes where our characters are thrown into real life and death struggles.

You need to watch the film again. I guess having a phaser pointed at you set on kill doesn't count. :rolleyes


Kevin

 

[Bryancd]

I just don't think it's fair to ding the new film because for sake of story and dramatic impact they run fast and loose with the pseudo-science. All of Trek is guilty of that, big screen or small.

 

[Solo4114]

I have to disagree- The opening sequence of the Narada's attack on the Kelvin shapes Kirk's life. He grows up fatherless. I would call that having a significant impact on a character's developement and not action for the sake of action.

And he wasn't exactly the "same old jerk" once he took command of the Enterprise-

Kirk during the Kobayashi Maru test demands that Uhura call him "Captain." He is cocky and arrogant.

Once Spock relieves himself of command, Uhura turns to Kirk and says, "I hope you know what you're doing Captain." (Emphasis on "captain" referring back to the Kobayashi Maru when she neglected to call him that)-

Kirk's response is along the lines of "So do I." The cockiness and arrogance is gone. He is truly in charge now and knows that everyone's lives hang in the balance.

That is growth.


Kevin

I don't remember any of that. Granted, I saw the film once, on a plane, and it was entertaining. But a lot of it just didn't stay with me. I may have to revisit it at some point and see how those scenes play out. All I'm saying is that my recollection of the film is that it wasn't as complex in how it handled the characters as Trek II was. That and the action was mostly of the slam-bang variety. Some of it's meaningful, certainly, but a lot of it is just jumping from one sequence to the next. I have similar criticisms, for example, of The Transporter and The Matrix: Reloaded. Lots of visually interesting action which ultimately just moves the characters in a geographic sense, rather than developing them. But that's my recollection of it. Like I said, I may need to revisit.

 

[DARTH SABER]

Here's the problem. With the exception of that call out to the "alternate reality" bit on the bridge, everyone treats this whole scenario as if it was just time travel. If the alternate reality was indeed the real deal, why does Prime Spock that the Vulcan he watched being destroyed was his home? According to the alternate reality deal, he should very well know that his real home is safe in his reality.

I think you're reading too much into what Spock says.
Ive lived in several "homes" in my lifetime and calling somewhere "home" is not exclusive to the original place you used to live.
The bottom line is, Alternate-Vulcan would be the closest equivalant to "home" in this new reality, and its inhabitants would still be Vulcans.

Another problem is that Star Trek has depicted time travel changing the reality that our characters inhabit. Yesterday's Enterprise, Star Trek First Contact, and the Deep Space Nine two-parter all used different methods of time travel which resulted in a change to their reality, not a shift into a new one.

Fans just need something a bit more tangible rather than a "take my word for it" theory from NuSpock.

You are correct, that is a problem..Trek has always changed and broken it's own established rules of time travel. It's a problem that started long before JJ Trek came out.
Besides, In a Mirror Darkly had already established the time travel/alternate reality scenario prior to Abrams film.

 

[DARTH SABER]

I have to disagree- The opening sequence of the Narada's attack on the Kelvin shapes Kirk's life. He grows up fatherless. I would call that having a significant impact on a character's developement and not action for the sake of action.

And he wasn't exactly the "same old jerk" once he took command of the Enterprise-

Kirk during the Kobayashi Maru test demands that Uhura call him "Captain." He is cocky and arrogant.

Once Spock relieves himself of command, Uhura turns to Kirk and says, "I hope you know what you're doing Captain." (Emphasis on "captain" referring back to the Kobayashi Maru when she neglected to call him that)-

Kirk's response is along the lines of "So do I." The cockiness and arrogance is gone. He is truly in charge now and knows that everyone's lives hang in the balance.

That is growth.


Kevin

Bingo -thumbsup

 

[Kerr Avon]

Bingo -thumbsup

Regardless of his attitude as a captain, without experience and training, you can't go from a washout to a COMPETENT Captain of a starship after one mission.

 

[DARTH SABER]

Regardless of his attitude as a captain, without experience and training, you can't go from a washout to a COMPETENT Captain of a starship after one mission.

Lets not go from one extreme to another....While it may have been just one mission, he still had years of training in the acedemy. Its not as though they plucked him from the local bar the same day the Enterprise went on its maiden voyage.

However I do agree that making him captain at the end of the film was a bit much. It would have been better if they gave him a commendation and then had him as captain in the second film..But then again, it is Kirk. The same Kirk who gets reinstated as captain for stealing the enterprise, blowing up the enterprise.

 

[SSgt Burton]

Regardless of his attitude as a captain, without experience and training, you can't go from a washout to a COMPETENT Captain of a starship after one mission.

I think the term "washout" (to suggest that he "flunked" Starfleet Academy), is unfair- he didn't "fail" SFA. He was under suspension.

However I "do" completely agree that Kirk going from cadet to captain in one film is a little too accelerated for my taste and still one of the my gripes with this film.

The bottom line is that a mass audience is probably not going to accept a "lieutenant Kirk" at the end of the movie since everyone else has been slotted into their familiar positions on the Enterprise. I don't care for it, but I choose to accept it.

The trailer for the new movie suggests that they will address Kirk's "greenness" to the role of captain.

EDIT- DS beat me to it.


Kevin

 

[CessnaDriver]

I think the term "washout" (to suggest that he "flunked" Starfleet Academy), is unfair- he didn't "fail" SFA. He was under suspension.

However I "do" completely agree that Kirk going from cadet to captain in one film is a little too accelerated for my taste and still one of the my gripes with this film.

The bottom line is that a mass audience is probably not going to accept a "lieutenant Kirk" at the end of the movie since everyone else has been slotted into their familiar positions on the Enterprise. I don't care for it, but I choose to accept it.

The trailer for the new movie suggests that they will address Kirk's "greenness" to the role of captain.

EDIT- DS beat me to it.


Kevin

Thing is it is such a major diminishing of what captaincy of a starship is supposed to mean and what the Enterprise is supposed to be about. Anyone in that chair will have greatly earned it and demonstrated previously they are not green anymore but can handle it.

 

[Vivek]

Exclusive: Damon Lindelof Talks STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS; Talks Bigger Sets, Redshirt Deaths, the Writing Process, the Timeline, Studio Requests, Easter Eggs, Benedict Cumberbatch, and More! | Collider

 

[SmilingOtter]

I don't make it a habit of defending Trek '09, but they demonstrated pretty clearly that Capt. Pike wasn't very much into "rules and regulations." I don't think Kirk's promotion to the center seat was as much something Starfleet did, as much as Rear Admiral Pike staying true to character and hand picking his replacement.

As for the time travel, alternate reality brouhaha, in "First Contact" the time traveling Borg sphere created an immediate change in the Prime universe - "Nine billion life forms. All Borg." Seems like that would argue against the idea that Nero's actions didn't effect the original timeline.

 

[Jeyl]

Space... The Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise. Her ongoing mission, to explore strange new worlds. To seek out new life forms and new civilizations... To boldly go where no one has gone befo---

“They’re in the 23rd century and these people are from Earth. The Earth needed to play more of a role in these movies, especially in the sense of giving the audience a degree of relatability. I think that in the same way that New York City becomes this anchor point for people in the Marvel movies; that’s Spidey’s stomping ground, that was the stomping ground for Tony Stark, that was the stomping ground for The Avengers, it’s New York. We wanted to do the same thing with Earth in the Star Trek movies.”

Well, so much for taking the Star Trek franchise is a new direction. Sounds like they're going to take this "Earth is the center of the universe" trope to such a degree that aliens will literally be these side characters that nobody ever talks about.

 

[CessnaDriver]

Space... The Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise. Her ongoing mission, to explore strange new worlds. To seek out new life forms and new civilizations... To boldly go where no one has gone befo---



Well, so much for taking the Star Trek franchise is a new direction. They're going to take the "Earth is the center of the universe" to such a degree that aliens will literally be these side characters that nobody ever talks about.

Cuz you know, Star Trek needs to be more like The Avengers.

 

[Jeyl]

And isn't Tony Stark's stomping ground California?