Star Trek Into Darkness (Post-release)

Which is not true from a narrative stand point, for all the reasons above.

Which is also flawed when you stated...

In STID, Khan is motivated to save his crew.

No, he's not. The moment we meet him, he's dead set on revenge. When he blew up London and attacked Starfleet HQ, he did it because he believed Marcus had killed his entire crew. He openly admits this.

KHAN: I had no choice but to escape alone. And when I did, I had every reason to suspect that Marcus had killed every single one of the people I hold most dear. So I responded in kind.​

And if you still think saving his crew was his only motivation, don't forget that after Khan realized that his crew are still alive, he didn't tell Kirk or anyone else about how to open the torpedoes that actually contained his crew. Nope, nothing about how to avoid the self-arming booby trap or the circuits to diffuse the bloody thing. He just risked one of his crewman that he holds DEAR.... for no reason. There's no way he couldn't have known about the Booby Trap because those torpedoes were designed by him.
 
Which is also flawed when you stated...



No, he's not. The moment we meet him, he's dead set on revenge. When he blew up London and attacked Starfleet HQ, he did it because he believed Marcus had killed his entire crew. He openly admits this.

KHAN: I had no choice but to escape alone. And when I did, I had every reason to suspect that Marcus had killed every single one of the people I hold most dear. So I responded in kind.​

And if you still think saving his crew was his only motivation, don't forget that after Khan realized that his crew are still alive, he didn't tell Kirk or anyone else about how to open the torpedoes that actually contained his crew. Nope, nothing about how to avoid the self-arming booby trap or the circuits to diffuse the bloody thing. He just risked one of his crewman that he holds DEAR.... for no reason. There's no way he couldn't have known about the Booby Trap because those torpedoes were designed by him.

Again Jeyl, you have to focus on motivations, not superficial similarities.

In TWOK, Khan's vengeance is motivated by the events of Space Seed and the ensuing decades of being marooned. His conflict with Kirk is intensely personal (which they beat you over the head with when Khan quotes Moby Dick). He is so motivated by vengeance, that he is blinded by his rage and dispenses with reason (Joachim tries to beg him off, but he persists to kill Kirk).

This is not what happens in STID. STID plays off Marcus and Khan. More to the point though, let's look at that exchange:

James T. Kirk: I watched you open fire in a room full of unarmed Starfleet officers. You killed them in cold blood.
Khan: Marcus took my crew from me!
James T. Kirk: You are a murderer!
Khan: He used my friends to control me. I tried to smuggle them to safety by concealing them in the very weapons I have designed. But I was discovered. I had no choice but to escape alone. And when I did, I had every reason to suspect that Marcus had killed every single one of the people I hold most dear. So I responded in kind. My crew is my family, Kirk. Is there anything you would not do for your family?

I don't think it's at all clear from this passage of dialogue that Khan is talking about London. Kirk is clearly talking about the attack on Starfleet HQ. Even if we want to say that he's talking generally about his actions, for you to argue that Khan is not interested in saving his crew is, quite simply, ridiculous. That's Khan's motivation for the second half of the film.

This parallels much more with Space Seed than TWOK.

Marcus and McGivers are both fascinated with Khan and extend trust to him because of this fascination.

Khan has no reason to be "vengeful" against Kirk in Space Seed because Kirk did not freeze him and send him out into space. He attacks Kirk because Kirk is standing in the way of what he wants: the ship.

Likewise, in STID, Khan has no reason to be "vengeful" against the Enterprise. It's quite clear his beef is with Marcus. The Enterprise is just in the way. He manipulates Kirk and the crew of the Enterprise in an attempt to rescue his crew, in a similar manner in which he manipulated McGivers into helping him take control of the Enterprise.

When Khan kills Marcus and takes the Vengeance, what does he do? He asks for his crew. Spock refuses, so Khan says he'll attack the life support systems and suffocate the crew of the Enterprise and get the torpedoes later. Hmmm, where have we seen Khan try to suffocate the crew of the Enterprise before...? Oh yeah, Space Seed!

The point being is that TWOK is about Khan pursuing Kirk. In STID and Space Seed, Khan and Kirk interact, but in neither is Khan's primary motivation to kill Kirk.
 
When Khan kills Marcus and takes the Vengeance, what does he do? He asks for his crew. Spock refuses, so Khan says he'll attack the life support systems and suffocate the crew of the Enterprise and get the torpedoes later. Hmmm, where have we seen Khan try to suffocate the crew of the Enterprise before...? Oh yeah, Space Seed!

Except this Khan was going to suffocate the crew of the Enterprise till they were dead, where as the original Khan only wanted to deprive them of enough oxygen to knock them out. The Khan in Space Seed was no ruthless savage who wouldn't hesitate to murder each one of the crew without hesitation.

Marcus and McGivers are both fascinated with Khan and extend trust to him because of this fascination.

So we're actually dealing with a Marcus/Khan thing here? Hmm. You think that if they had a flashback of Marcus first discovering Khan for the first time that his reaction was shot in soft focus to romanticize the mood?

Maybe STID should have been called "The Wraths of Khan" since he starts his vengeance out on Marcus, than on the Enterprise, than on Starfleet HQ, than on Spock.
 
Except this Khan was going to suffocate the crew of the Enterprise till they were dead, where as the original Khan only wanted to deprive them of enough oxygen to knock them out. The Khan in Space Seed was no ruthless savage who wouldn't hesitate to murder each one of the crew without hesitation.

...and? This doesn't forward your argument that STID draws more from TWOK than Space Seed.



So we're actually dealing with a Marcus/Khan thing here?

You know Jeyl, if you actually dealt with my arguments as a whole, instead of snipping out little bits and pieces (as I have repeatedly asked you NOT to do), then yeah, it might make my argument a little more clear.


Maybe STID should have been called "The Wraths of Khan" since he starts his vengeance out on Marcus, than on the Enterprise, than on Starfleet HQ, than on Spock.

Again, see the definition of the word "vengeance." The Enterprise did not aggrieve Khan, nor did Starfleet headquarters.

The source of tension which drives the narrative of the film is the conflict between Marcus and Khan which Kirk stumbles into.
 
Again, see the definition of the word "vengeance." The Enterprise did not aggrieve Khan, nor did Starfleet headquarters.

If the whole point in Khan's character was seeking vengeance against those who wronged him, he's not "Space Seed" Khan. And last I checked, Starfleet headquarters was a part of Starfleet, which is why Khan specifically targeted it.
 
If the whole point in Khan's character was seeking vengeance against those who wronged him, he's not "Space Seed" Khan. And last I checked, Starfleet headquarters was a part of Starfleet, which is why Khan specifically targeted it.
Uh, you're lost. I'm not the one arguing Khan is motivated by vengeance in STID, you are. Khan's crew is the mcguffin. It's the leverage that Marcus uses over Khan, it's what motivates Khan in the second act of the film.

As far as Starfleet, it was not Starfleet that aggrieved Khan, it was Marcus. Starfleet didn't want the war or Khan's mind, it was Marcus.
 
It's not just a case of a being on a different page...it's a different book, written in a foreign language, with water stains and a missing table of contents.
 
I'll admit to being contrarian, but not to the extent Jeyl is. He'll argue anything, regardless of whether or not it was the point he was trying to make.
 
I'll admit to being contrarian, but not to the extent Jeyl is. He'll argue anything, regardless of whether or not it was the point he was trying to make.

Hey, if people who talk about STID thinks that alone will continue to make it relevant, than users talking about me will continues to make me relevant. So now here I am to offer you more.

As far as Starfleet, it was not Starfleet that aggrieved Khan, it was Marcus.

So why did he specifically target Starfleet headquarters? Don't tell me he was doing it to save his crew, because at this point he thinks they're dead again. The guy loves to base his entire vengeance scheme on a lot of incorrect assumptions, doesn't he?
 
***Takes Jeyl off ignore***


The Khan in Space Seed was no ruthless savage who wouldn't hesitate to murder each one of the crew without hesitation.


Space Seed- Khan traps Kirk in the decompression chamber, lowering the air dangerously to the point the Captain will suffocate to death

KHAN: I should have realised that suffocating together on the Bridge would create heroic camaraderie among you. But it is quite a different thing to watch it happening to someone else. Engage the viewing screen. I'm sure you recognise your medical decompression chamber here, Doctor. And the meaning of that indicator. Your Captain will die. If you join me, Mister Spock, I will save his life. My vessel was useless. I need you and yours to select a colony planet. One with a population willing to be led by us.

MCCOY: To be conquered by you. A starship would make that most simple, wouldn't it?

KHAN: Each of you in turn will go in there! Die while the others watch!



Kevin



***Puts Jeyl back on ignore***
 
So why did he specifically target Starfleet headquarters? Don't tell me he was doing it to save his crew, because at this point he thinks they're dead again. The guy loves to base his entire vengeance scheme on a lot of incorrect assumptions, doesn't he?

Because that's where Marcus was at the time.
 
So why did he specifically target Starfleet headquarters? Don't tell me he was doing it to save his crew, because at this point he thinks they're dead again. The guy loves to base his entire vengeance scheme on a lot of incorrect assumptions, doesn't he?

He targets starfleet at the end because the ship was crippled and it was a last ditch effort to do as much damage as possible. His original intent wasnt the destruction of starfleet headquarters.
 
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