Spock's death

Discussion in 'Entertainment and Movie Talk' started by rodneyfaile, Feb 18, 2012.

  1. rodneyfaile

    rodneyfaile Sr Member

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    Would the end of The Wrath of Khan have more of an impact now when you rewatch it if Spock had never returned?
     
  2. Vermithrax 4

    Vermithrax 4 Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely it would have more impact. I always thought Trek III was such a complete waste of time and money. Although I enjoyed III for the fun of it, it was basically Paramount making one whole film correcting a mistake they feel they made. Would've been better if they had left him dead, his resurrection was just too much of a silly premise. Don't get me wrong, I love Spock in Trek IV and VI (I try to ignore Trek V) so I'm glad he's there, it's just that bringing him back totally negated any and all lasting emotional impact of his sacrifice and death.

    Oh, well...that's Trek for ya' I guess.
     
  3. Apollo

    Apollo Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Blame Nimoy and Bennet for that.

    Leonard was very very smart in what he negotiated all through out Trek.

    As to the original question the impact would have been different if spock never returned


     
  4. darthgordon

    darthgordon Sr Member

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    I'd agree. It would be different. It's still a very well done, emotional scene though.
     
  5. phase pistol

    phase pistol Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Trek III was calculated to negate everything that happened in WOK... from Kirk's line about the "needs of the one outweighing the needs of the many" (ugh), to destroying the Enterprise (which had performed so well in the previous film but was now "too old" and ready to be scrapped!)...

    III was a real disappointment, and set the tone for the following films... the inexplicably malfunctioning Enterprise in Trek 5 (even though a new vessel was gifted to Kirk in the previous film!), the familiar cast acting "out of character"... and perhaps worst of all, the resurrected Spock acting like a braindead ninny (Trek 4) and then later like some sort of spiritual guru...

    Also bringing Spock back estabished the cliched Trek "reset button": "it's science fiction, nobody has to stay dead forever." This trivializes any act of heroism or sacrifice... it's all just rolling dice to generate "scenarios". Over-reliance on reset buttons crippled Trek plots for decades to come.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2012
  6. Clerval

    Clerval Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    A few times I've wondered how it could have played if III and IV had been reversed in the chronology. A first mission without Spock, McCoy going through the anguish in their century only to be relieved of it in ours and capably carrying out his assignment with Scotty, and then back to their century where he gets mentally hammered again. Then starting to bring in the implications of the Genesis planet, a Klingon incursion while Earth/Starfleet was otherwise occupied, etc.
     
  7. micdavis

    micdavis Master Member

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    Star Trek 3 and 5 is what happens when you bribe an actor with the Director's Chair to make the next film.

    Nimoy wanted out, so they killed Spock.

    When TWOK hit big, (they thought it would be the last Trek film) Paramount saw sequel again. But Dead Spock.

    Dangled DIRECTOR in front of Nimoy, and we get Jim the Taxi Driver as a Klingon.

    Back in the day after Season One. Nimoy and Shatners lawyers got together and made a deal that whatever Shatner GOT NImoy GOT and vice versa, so they had to let Shatner direct one too. And Sybok was born.

    Be careful what you wish for. Although I like ST5.

    And after all, weak Star Trek is better than NO Star Trek. It just is.
     
  8. Probe Droid

    Probe Droid Master Member

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    **** Yes.
     
  9. rodneyfaile

    rodneyfaile Sr Member

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    I've always been of the mindset that subsequent sequels/prequels do not alter my enjoyment of the originals, but this instance has me reconsidering my stance.

    Imagine how great a moment that would have been if that was the last time we ever saw Spock!
     
  10. micdavis

    micdavis Master Member

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    And people wonder why I don't think TWOK is as great as everyone goes on about.

    Sure it's a good fun movie. But it's not that great a Star Trek story, aside from the plot rehash.

    If you're going to slam TMP for being a rehash of The Changeling, then TWOK is just a submarine movie combined with a rehash of Space Seed.
     
  11. MooCriket

    MooCriket Master Member

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    I miss Trek, even bad Trek, and I won't complain about them bringing Spock back to the same age as he was when he died. I liked Jim the taxi driver as a Klingon.
     
  12. micdavis

    micdavis Master Member

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    I did too, but 3 is the weakest of them all because it is terribly contrived, and I missed Kirstie Alley.
     
  13. MooCriket

    MooCriket Master Member

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    I miss the skinny more attractive Saavik too. Too bad they could not bring her back to reprise her role in the Soviet Klingon Trek film, instead of introducing a new Vulkan.

    The other Saavik, just did not do it for me. Catrall was ok though.
     
  14. Contec

    Contec Master Member

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    those nude pictures she took on the bridge never got out did they?
     
  15. SSgt Burton

    SSgt Burton Sr Member

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    Okay I have to disagree a bit. You are 100% bang on right that Trek III was unbelievably contrived however it's certainly not the first time they pulled something like this...

    Spock "should" have been a blind Vulcan at the end of the 1st season. ;)

    Now THERE was some drama! Spock is attacked by an alien parasite and will die if he is not subjected to a treatment of blinding light that will give him permanent blindness.

    The treatment is administered and Spock is very much blind, however it is discovered that the visible light of the spectrum was not necessary to destroy the parasite- Spock didn't have to be blinded.

    THAT was brilliant!

    Oh but Spock forgot about his Vulcan inner eyelid which protects him from blinding light; he had his full sight back by the end of the episode. :rolleyes

    Talk about contrived. :lol

    Think about how progressive the series would have been with a blind Spock. You have a crew made up of different nationalities (who are all equals- no racial prejudice) and now a "disabled" character.

    Except "I" don't believe that the audience of the 60s would accept it (a blind Spock that is).

    They could have had a few episodes of him being blind and having his sight gradually return, but didn't have the guts to try that either. ;)


    Don't get me wrong- like I said Trek III is VERY contrived, and "I" was glad to have Spock back too (I think the only thing that could have been worse is him "not being dead but just resting" when they fired him out of the torpedo bay :facepalm :lol).


    Getting back to the original question: The end of ST:II still has its emotional impact for me 30 years later (even after watching this film probably over 1000 times), but if it was Spock's last outing, it would probably make me cry my eyes out just like I did when I first watched it in 1982. So yes it would definitely have a greater impact.


    To each his own. ;)

    I liked (young) Kirstie Alley too, but I would have no problem with some Ponn Farr from Robin Curtis. :love :lol


    Kevin
     
  16. SSgt Burton

    SSgt Burton Sr Member

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    Fixed that for you. ;)


    Kevin
     
  17. GotWookiee

    GotWookiee Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    It's been a while since I've seen Trek 3, though it was pretty mediocre from what I remember. But you can't blame Trek 3 for resurrecting Spock. Trek II setup his resurrection from the get go with his "remember" mind meld, Kirk's monologue at the end and of course the final shot of Spock's torpedo coffin underscored by James Horner's music. Paramount and Co. were, at the very least, giving themselves the option of bringing back Spock.
     
  18. Apollo

    Apollo Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Actually the Mount did not want Nimoy directing Leonard had to fight hard on that one.

    Again Nimoy was his best Agent and Shatner owes a debt to him for the Favored actor clause! :lol


     
  19. NakedMoleRat

    NakedMoleRat Sr Member

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    If Spock had not been ressurrected, he would have never been there to re-set the timeline and JJ would have had to make a totally different movie!
     
  20. micdavis

    micdavis Master Member

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    My wife always used to laugh at me that I seemed to have little emotional response to them killing Spock as I watched it happen on screen, but when in ST3 they cut to that close up of the main dish of the Enterprise going BOOM!!!!!......I let out an audible squelch. :lol
     
  21. Kerr Avon

    Kerr Avon Master Member

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    There have been Star Trek movies other than "The Wrath of Khan?"
     
  22. Alan Castillo

    Alan Castillo Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Agreed. Spock's return was planned for the III for certain. I don't think they ever intended to kill him off.
     
  23. DrkMatter

    DrkMatter Well-Known Member

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    You are incorrect. Nimoy wanted out of the franchise. He came back for TWOK because they offered him a nice paycheck and a great death scene. As a matter of fact, Spock was originally going to die during the opening of the film. After Nick Meyer came on-board as director and a few rewrites, it was changed to the ending you know. While filming, Shatner asked Nimoy why he wanted out of such a fun job that paid so well? It was then, Nimoy began having second thoughts about leaving the franchise. Shatner told Harve Bennett, Nimoy might do another film. They hastily rewrote the ending and filmed the casket scene to leave a way for Spock's return.

    The rest as they say, is history.
     
  24. Alan Castillo

    Alan Castillo Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Since what seems to be a rewritten ending is the only one I know and have on DVD :lol, then I (obviously) may stand to be corrected :thumbsup.
     
  25. SSgt Burton

    SSgt Burton Sr Member

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    Since we are throwing out tibits... :)


    The original story was supposed to have Spock killed (for real) about a 1/4 into the picture. The rest of the movie was about "Let's get the bastards who killed Spock!"

    However it was leaked to the public early on that Spock was going to die in Star Trek II. And the rumour (I don't know if it was ever confirmed) is that Gene Roddenberry himself leaked the information as "revenge" for killing off Spock, and having all control of the writing taken away from him.

    So they added the Kobayashi Maru opening. Spock "dies" in that opening (along with... just about
    everybody :lol).

    The "hope" was that audiences would assume that the rumour of Spock dying was actually all about the simulated Kobayashi Maru test. The audience would think that they were "tricked" into believing that Spock was going to die and that the rumour was only "half" true (he "died", but it was just an act). They would breathe a sigh of relief and sit back for the picture.

    Then the "real" death scene at the end would be a total surprise as the audience by then had become comfortable with the belief that Spock wasn't going to die, because he had already "died" at the beginning of the film.

    I believe the entire ruse worked when the film premiered.


    Kevin
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2012

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