Prop Collecting for future gains???

[Lear60man]

Although the majority of my limited collection is replica i do own a few screen used pieces. I can understand the original collectors point of view and yes it does have the potential to devaluate the original piece. Examples have been given where that has been the case. Wasnt the $200K lightsaber a replica? It is our nature to perfect a piece.

I guess the beef is revolving around some ID badges. Easy to replicate and yes it doesnt take a rocket scientist to replicate one and sell it as an original. There will always be scam artists.

With that said, if I scour enough parts to make say a Motion Tracker from original parts would i be a bad man? i dont think so. Is is possible one of my replicas could possibly be sold as an original by a creative scammer down the road? Yup.

The ID and paper props are easy targets to replicate. If I was a serious collector I might want to steer clear of these easy to replicate props.

With that said, If someone gives you access to a piece and says donnt replicate it..........dont do it.

So does replicating a prop devaluate the original? In some cases yes, bbut for the majority no.

 

[Entropy]

I would challenge anyone to demonstrate where ANY original prop was de-valued by a replica.

If you can't distinguish a copy from an original, through visual clues or provenance that's your own problem. Buyer beware.

Your second comment is exactly what makes it so easy to answer your challenge. I can think of a number examples where replicas have been so difficult to distinguish from the originals that they cause collectors to shy away from certain pieces, thus reducing demand and directly affecting the value of the original(s).

I don't know how many people I've heard say that they wouldn't go anywhere near an "original" Jurassic Park cane. I'm sure the price of Freddy Krueger gloves and Jason masks has taken a hit because of how easy it is to get burned by a fake. I'd hate to be a Gremlins collector right now. Who can guess how much more original Trek pieces might be worth if Mark English were never on the scene? Prequel stunt saber anyone?

I've seen entire auctions and sales of collections where I felt the bottom line was ultimately affected by the inclusion of potential replicas. I am aware of at least one collector whose original prop with good provenance was rejected by an major auction house as a consignment because there were replicas on eBay. I will also say that I've seen original pieces fall flat on the market simply because they've had a known replicator in the chain of ownership. Collectors don't like walking through minefields, and you just won't convince me that it doesn't have an affect on the value of original props.

Having said all that, let me assure all that I'm not an "elitist." I have both replicas and originals in my collection. I don't buy either as an investment, but I'd like to think that they might hold their value in case my interests change and I want to move or trade something. Even if I don't sell something myself, some day my hiers are going to have to deal with all this junk. I hope it's worth their effort when they do.

I collect and appreciate from both sides of the fence. I strongly believe that both hobbies could benefit from more mutual respect, understanding and cooperation.

 

[vader71]

I wish I had the funds to own a screen used pieces but for what I want they are not affordable or available. For me that means replicas are the only way to go.
I mainly collect vader pieces and I know most everything has some mark or tell that leaves the makers signature, as long as its small and does not take away from the overall look I do not see that as a problem. It allows you to know the original from the copy if you really know what to look for.
With high def movies and the skills that many have here it is not that hard for those that want to make a buck to pass things off as real that are not, sadly nothing will chane that. As long as the copy is sold as a copy everyone is on level ground, but the poor ethics of those that would sell it as something else is a concern. While I can not say the copy should be altered, I can see why it would be desigered. In this specific case with the ID, if a small modification was made to a font or a number would that really drop sales? The buyers know its a copy (and clearly a very good one at that).

I do not buy my props to make money but I have done well selling a few but it just went to funding different props, this hobby is quite the addiction.

 

[jdebord]

I think Brad has a valid point, if he did put "REPLICA" or another "tell" in the piece as soon as his customers noticed the discrepancy they would look for a piece without it. The entire mind set on this forum is to continue to improve and make anything and everything as close to the real deal as possible. It would sort of suck if that was not the way this bunch is, we would have much less accurate replicas.

Taking a badge as an example, let's assume it is barely seen on screen - to the point of seeing no specific details. If not for having seen a photo of an original, how exactly would a change of say, a serial number, make it any more or less "accurate", if said serial number is never seen on screen in the film?

Or putting a watermark or "replica" in microscopic print on the back - when the back is never seen in the context of the film?

Like I said, this is no different than the copyright/manufacturer information found on licensed collectibles, usually in inconspicuous places.

Ironically enough, aren't replica makers known to frequently put their own hidden "tells" in their replica props? So that they can determine if someone has "recast" their work? It just seems to me that equivalent efforts are already made in some cases - but in that example, it is completely self-serving.

In any event, my only hope in engaging in this discussion was to raise some issues from the perspective of an original prop hobbyist for those who might consider them. I have no expectations that the entire replica prop hobby will mark or identify those types of props most problematic for original prop hobbyists - those props derived from original molds or casts or original pieces, and those paper props made from photos/scans - not those scratch built and/or made from found parts.

As such, it would probably be a good idea for me to create a static page on my website to serve as a public reference resource for original prop collectors which catalogs and archives the details of those replica pieces which cause us the most problems, as that would require no good will nor efforts outside of my own.

Jason

 

[feek61]

I have a small collection of screen-used props and don't consider selling them, however, after I'm died and gone (hopefully in a long while) I do think that the re-sell value will be good. I hope that my wife and kids sell all of my crap and make a mint!! :lol


Will

 

[jts1031]

One of the Cudas used in Nash Bridges sold for ~$150k. The car was not a legitimate '71, nor even a hemi as none were used on the show. The auction price was about 10x what the car was actually worth. The only reason it sold for the price it did was that it was driven by Don Johnson, Cheech Marin sat in it, and it was seen on screen. I think that's the draw of a lot of these props. People want originals because of who it was handled by on screen. Don Johnson wore a lot of interesting suit coats on the series. One was recently up on ebay for a couple hundred, but I could have the coat made by the original maker for about half of that. I would be content with a copy and not covet the original, so that takes away some of the valued interest in the original. I would never submit the copy as an original, but down the line, when it's out of my hands, who is to say what might be done with it...

 

[rollerboi]

It sounds like what this ultimately comes down to is tells. Tells that, in my mind, are common sense and good business.

Each piece, to me, should have at least a few tells distinguishing it from the original. Some tells can be publicized if there is a concern of passing them off for the original ("look for this.."), and other tells should be kept to oneself for verification purposes (and to avoid recasters taking them out if they know about them).

In the case of ID, I don't think it would be very hard to do something like many checks do - a line that looks solid, but under magnification reveals itself to be tiny lettering.

I would suggest that original prop holders should be worked with to the extent that they will accept the tells you build into your prop. It sounds like that's the main issue here, anyways, which is actually quite a compliment - someone who has the original thinks *your* replica is so amazingly good, there may be confusion. Congrats.

In no way are they exhibiting an elitist attitude when expressing concern about fraud. Yes, it's buyer beware, but there's steps all of us can take to help the process.

 

[micdavis]

I don't know how many people I've heard say that they wouldn't go anywhere near an "original" Jurassic Park cane. I'm sure the price of Freddy Krueger gloves and Jason masks has taken a hit because of how easy it is to get burned by a fake. I'd hate to be a Gremlins collector right now. Who can guess how much more original Trek pieces might be worth if Mark English were never on the scene? Prequel stunt saber anyone?

To me that sounds like it INCREASES the value of the originals that do have the proper provenance. Do your homework and you'll be fine.

Crooks will always be crooks, whether there are tells or not.

I have a hard time digging up sympathy for folks that can spend thousands of dollars on their toys.

THIS hobby was a lot more fun when less original stuff was floating around.

But that is the heart of this argument. The hobbiest do it for fun, the collectors it's about the money. If it wasn't there would be no complaints.

 

[defstartrooper]

Aside from all the other stuff discussed, no i don't collect anything for future gain everything i collect is out on display.
I'm sure this affects resale value but i really couldn't care less myself, i enjoy looking at my stuff to me that is worth far more than any resale value.
I know there are people who buy up MR,Sideshow or whatever items and don't even open the packaging or they open them just to make sure the items not damaged and carefully put them back in their packaging and they never see the light of day again until sold on.
To me that's crazy i rarely buy licensed stuff anyway but the items i do own like this i don't bother with keeping boxes and stuff.

 

[micdavis]

Exactly how I feel. Anything else is not a hobby.

 

[jdebord]

To me that sounds like it INCREASES the value of the originals that do have the proper provenance. Do your homework and you'll be fine.

Crooks will always be crooks, whether there are tells or not.

Yes, and "crooks" manufacture provenance - documents and stories - so a tell of some kind on the piece to distinguish it from an original is what would help a collector to do his or her "homework", and would possibly save someone from being defrauded.

I have a hard time digging up sympathy for folks that can spend thousands of dollars on their toys.

Again, I don't really understand this poor attitude toward original prop hobbyists...

THIS hobby was a lot more fun when less original stuff was floating around.

But that is the heart of this argument. The hobbiest do it for fun, the collectors it's about the money. If it wasn't there would be no complaints.

Well, given your "Interest" topic, to sell (for money) replica Ten Commandments tablets that wouldn't otherwise exist if not for "original stuff floating around", I'm guessing your for profit unlicensed replica venture would not otherwise exist:

INT: Ten Commandments Tablets

Here's another oddball project by me.

Based on a great photo from PIH.

It appears that an entire cottage industry of unlicensed replica props are born out of those original prop Profiles in History catalogs that come out three times a year.

Yet you lament the loss of fun in the hobby because of the original props "floating around"?

Are you saying it's more "fun" to make and sell ten or twenty or one hundred of something for resale and profit, rather than just making one for yourself to enjoy?

And for original prop collectors it's "all about the money"?

Jason

 

[micdavis]

For the most part. I make copies of things I make so others can have them. IN the hopes others will do the same, so I don't have to make everything I'd like to have. There is little to no profit in any of it. Certainly can't make a living at it. At least I don't. 99% of what I get goes right into something else.

And if the Profiles catalogs didn't happen, I'd just screen grab what I need. And still get 90% of the way there, which I'd be happy with.

This hobby has existed, for me at least, LONG before the internet, screen grabs and the now popular auctions.

Yeah, it was harder, but at the same time more challenging. Often times I joke about how it's cheating doing it the way we do now.

The comic book collecting hobby was ruined in the same manner. Somewhere along the way it became a "business" to people. Creating an artificial market of "special issues". The stories suffered and wrecked comic books, for a while. With some exceptions of course.

Now the prop market is flooded with "limited editions". Same thing is happening. Too bad.

 

[defstartrooper]

And for original prop collectors it's "all about the money"?

Jason

I wouldn't say it's ALL about the money but it's certainly a big part of it or this thread wouldn't have happened and we wouldn't have people arguing about replicas making originals worth less.
If it wasn't about money at all there would be no issue.

The suggestion of adding tells i'm sure others have noticed the flaw here but surely these tells are only useful for collectors if they know what they are ? And if they know then scammers will know and remove or change those tells accordingly ?
Replica propmakers do add tells a lot to props but they don't make those tells public they only serve the propmaker so he can spot a recast, if everyone knows the tell it becomes pointless because the recaster will remove or change it.

 

[firstmark]

I don't think original prop collectors are about the money at all really. If things go down in value because replicas are made of things that just means more original items could be bought cheap in theory. A collector would think thats a good thing. The real problem is good replicas make it hard to know what is original and what is replica for new pieces a collector might want to have. Paperwork or "provenance" is generally worth very little. Switch the piece; use the paperwork for the replica who would know. Most "provenance" doesen't even have a picture of the prop on it. Plus paperwork from an auction house doesen't mean the auction house or dealer or whomever it is from did not make a mistake.

Some collectors do sell pieces to make room for new pieces or more likely to raise money for the prop they would have bought before they got what they currently have if it was available before. Originals are rare because in many cases they are in collections and hoarded till the current owner dies or decides to sell things. Most other collectible fields go crazy about things in perfect condition having great value. With props if its rare and wanted any condition is acceptable. With the exception of original paintings or artwork no other collectible field is really rare. Rather cheap or expensive its the rarity factor and having a piece of history that drives original prop collectors I believe.

On high ends props replicas are a problem but if a prop is expensive its cost effective to research things more and more tends to be known about such props. The low end $100 to $1000 original props are the ones for which replicas provide the most trouble. People have made replicas of prop guns from the Last Starfighter, Earth Final Conflict, and Galactica 1980. Its things from less desired productions that make verifying such minor piece originals more problematic if you don't even know of the other replicas to begin with. Replicas do cause some originals to never sell well because the replicas are so good that collectors only want ones they can verify by reputation of seller even if very few like that exist and can be bought from a director that puts one up for auction or what not compared to all the others out there. The Profiles in History Star Trek auctions of Matt Jefferies and others estates allowed items to be bought with less worry so items would sell there that might have great trouble being sold at all if not from such estates.

 

[AGxM]

As someone with little or no modelling/sculpting/painting skills and a very limited budget I would struggle without the wonderfully creative replica makers to enjoy collecting items. If you collect to earn money then I can see your issue if you feel the replica market detracts from your original item, however, for many 'fans' the chance to own something that resembles what they see on the screen is all the buzz we need and surely that is why replicas came into being?

 

[theforce]

Hello,


I collect original props.

I’ve never purchased an original prop as an “investment” or for “financial gain”.

Jason De Bord

Wolverine claws from Xmen (sold at profiles in history) for $40,250.00 (2007). Purchased by consignor for @ $12-$15,000....a large "financial gain" for the consignor.

Back to the Future hover board (profiles) sold for $55,000 (2008) Purchased by consignor for @ $12-$15,000 (which may have included a trade, with screen used).... the second large "financial gain".

Donnie Darko mask (profiles) sold for $25,000 (2008).... A third "financial gain".

 

[theforce]

And for original prop collectors it's "all about the money"?

Jason

For some of them, maybe.

 

[kwalsh0000]

Having only gotten into collecting screen used props in the past year or so I can honestly say that while I have thought of what would happen if I had to sell them down the line, I have never bought them specificly for that purpose.


I buy them because I like to know I have something as accurate as I can get it and its a piece of my favourite show. Also if It gives me an oppertunity to share pics and details that people want..that just makes it all the better.

In terms of collecting for future gains. The item you have is only worth as much as someone else is willing to pay. The latest BSG auctions have shown alot of people come out of the woodwork and buy props and then try to ebay them for well over the original value. If they get the price then fair play to them but would rather have seen an item go to someone who will appreciate it fully.

 

[FuseNova]

Ditto... I justify my original prop and replica prop spending by thinking the items will increase in value but I certainly have no intention of selling them.

The BSG auctions will be a test - with soooo much stuff going out the door (and it keeps coming), the market is flooded. I've been keeping an eye on the re-sale of these items on eBay tto get a good deal but for the most part, I think sellers are coming up break even or short. I'll be lucky if my stuff holds value.

So - has anyone here made money on the BSG auctions?

 

[Guardian Devil]

I buy them because I like to know I have something as accurate as I can get it and its a piece of my favourite show. Also if It gives me an oppertunity to share pics and details that people want..that just makes it all the better.

I couldn't agree more with this. I've got quite a few original props and costumes (aswell as countless replicas in my collection so I can appreciate both sides of this to some degree) one of the biggest joys for me is sharing the pictures and information with those who want it. I had a great many messages through my site and here at the RPF around the time of dragoncon (?) in the states, I had a lot of fun taking measurements and pictures for everybody and helping them with what materials and such they needed, as there was a lot of Riddick interest at that time becuase of the Xbox games recent release.
Though because of found items and replicas, I do often get emails from the painfully uninformed to tell me: 'Thats just a replica! I've seen them on eBay!'
I considered taking my site down and making my collection less public not too long ago when I was getting rude messages from one of those people who think they know better, but I remembered how much I enjoyed sharing the details and how much I appreciated the help of others in the past when I've been attempting to replicate something for my own collection or costume.

Of all the items in my collection, none were bought just for the monetary value of them. If that was the case, why bother. I must say I found the people who have said that we who own original props are just greedy and just in it for the money was quite upsetting.
I'm afraid I buy them because of obsession, I'm not a rich man by any stretch of the imagination, but I work hard and I've got that nagging voice in my head that just keeps screaming at me not to let something else slip through my fingers!
Of course occasionally I may sell an item or two, but it's usually a duplicate I've obtained and am attempting to make a little back on the various other things I've bought, plus I know there's other fans out there looking for similar items and I wouldn't want to horde them all in my little corner! :lol