I'm curious to understand under what conditions a studio could pull an auction of an original prop? There are so many instances where crew members take props with them, or make additional copies for themselves. Do we only see props that were taken from the set from crew members given permission to take it from the set? What legal grounds does the studio have to end an auction or even confiscate an original prop?
Prop auctions and the studios
- Thread starter SithLord
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bigbaddaddyvader
Well-Known Member
Well officially speaking anything made by the production,during the production and for use in the production is property of the studio.Prop is short for studio property after all.
Legally I cant say although we have seen a few high profile instances in the past few years where pieces have been reclaimed by the likes of LFL.The elstree Ep 1 R2 dome springs to mind right away.As I uderstand it that piece had been requested to be returned to the studio but they were told it had been lost (or something along those lines) and then Elstree took the staggeringly short-sighted idea to consign it to the most publically noticable prop auction in the world at Profiles.Well done guys.I am not sure where the whole thing stands right now but I do know there was legal action taken against them.
Legally I cant say although we have seen a few high profile instances in the past few years where pieces have been reclaimed by the likes of LFL.The elstree Ep 1 R2 dome springs to mind right away.As I uderstand it that piece had been requested to be returned to the studio but they were told it had been lost (or something along those lines) and then Elstree took the staggeringly short-sighted idea to consign it to the most publically noticable prop auction in the world at Profiles.Well done guys.I am not sure where the whole thing stands right now but I do know there was legal action taken against them.
Yes I remember that dome, interesting they finally went after them. Well yes of course props are property but there are many props for sale out there and they get out there somehow and are visible. Provenance includes source but then it won't necessarily include the reason it was obtained from the set or production. It would be up to the studio to regard something as still belonging to them but we see props for sale all the time. The Death Star is an obvious example of something having been documented to be thrown away, or witnessed as such, and reclaimed by a private collector in which case the studio cannot reclaim the item. But unless the film is a blockbuster, most studios would not pay money to keep all of the props from a production in storage anyway, or am I mistaken.
bigbaddaddyvader
Well-Known Member
Since the change of the studio system most productions wont keep props in storage now.It used to be that the major studios had huge inventories of assets and props and they were consistently re-used in many productions.I think MGM were a case in point as regards to that.They had warehouses full of production assets.Now it has been increasingly the case that things are sold on through places like Hollywood Vault and Premiere Props flooding the market with vast amounts of stuff from any number of films that get little or no theater time and are straight to DVD.Perhaps the fact that many films now have specific items made and use less and less general props like generic guns and furniture has changed this too as more and more specialised and specific props are made for each production.That leads to it's own problems of course that while the provenance is rock solid people pay the "hype premium" on release and then values subsequently plummet.
On the other hand it is not really worth the effort for companies like LFL to go chasing every legitimate SW piece that crops up with the notable exception of high end peices that they would consider should be part of the archive or they want to put on one of the tours (and that they know were not acquired legitimately).Hell practically every original SW piece I own walked off a set in one way or another,lol.
On the other hand it is not really worth the effort for companies like LFL to go chasing every legitimate SW piece that crops up with the notable exception of high end peices that they would consider should be part of the archive or they want to put on one of the tours (and that they know were not acquired legitimately).Hell practically every original SW piece I own walked off a set in one way or another,lol.
Well, that's what I mean, most of the stuff walked off the set and either LFL doesn't care or takes issue. But what is the basis for taking issue and what can LFL actually do legally to recover something or at the minimum have an auction pull an item? That recent ROTJ TK helmet came from someone who wore it in the film. So presumably he had permission to take it with him and somehow LFL recognized that, or do they? If they don't know they cannot assume anything. If they wish to say it was stolen then they would have to have a report to that effect as that particular prop having gone missing during production. If they didn't report it then what recourse do they have?
If production wraps and there are leftover items then some will end up in private hands unless the studio has a specific interest in keeping them. They could check with department heads but even then, when things wrap up who knows what reason people have for taking something with them. From what I know, many items even fraudulently presented as in the case of many Elstree Props props go unnoticed or unchallenged....up to the point where it is something of more significant value as you mentioned the R2 dome.
You could take any number of props and there won't be an explanation as to how they left the production.
If production wraps and there are leftover items then some will end up in private hands unless the studio has a specific interest in keeping them. They could check with department heads but even then, when things wrap up who knows what reason people have for taking something with them. From what I know, many items even fraudulently presented as in the case of many Elstree Props props go unnoticed or unchallenged....up to the point where it is something of more significant value as you mentioned the R2 dome.
You could take any number of props and there won't be an explanation as to how they left the production.
How much of a ****** bag the owner acts like.
panzerwerk
Well-Known Member
This is not true , not all of the Props are owned by Production , I have worked off an on in Props for over 15 years , Production wants as little amount of stuff as possible after filming is done , just think of how much it costs to store and keep track of all that junk, they usually want the hero stuff in case during editing they have to re shoot scenes , many times the Prop Master rents the props to Production ,even if they are custom made for the movie , of course in Big movies where they know there is commercial value tied to certain items , they will buy the items outright and hold on to them for later sale , On several movies I have worked on , lead actors walk off with Props , sometimes Crew , the worst is when Its a Hero prop and your still filming , which I was witness to on one occasion , its why we keep identical back ups .
Linnear
Well-Known Member
Well, let's start with everything in a production either:
1) Belongs to the studio
2) Is a rental
If it belongs to the studio and it "walks off the lot", it is stolen, PERIOD. If it is a rental, then the renter owns it and can sell it. This is the case of my hero Starbuck FN 5-7 pistol. I got it from the armorer who had rented them to the production.
Collectors want to dance around the issue that they may own stolen property. But if the studio doesn't official release it, it is stolen property, whether the prop master takes it, or an actor or whoever takes it. Unless the item was given to them or they received authorization to take the items. That is where the gray area is. Did they get approval? By someone with the authority to give it? Yeah, it is not an easy question.
That being said,the studios will not go after people who have props, because they generally don't value the stuff. So you don't have to worry (other than Lucasfilm) about studios coming after you. Plus, most props aren't expensive enough to warrant legal action (But some ar. Remember the FBI busting that guy for the stolen Spiderman suit?).
The Christie's Star Trek auction woke SOME studio people up. TV Studios are waking up a bit. NBC/Universal gets it and they understand the value of these assets since we made millions for them in the Battlestar Galactica auctions. Disney/ABC does because they have an awesome guy in charge of assets. CBS does and is trying to get that machine going.
As far as movie studios, well, there are lots of issues with them, but generally our efforts and those of others are starting to gain traction and making it easier for them to understand the issue. This is the key problem. Studios have NEVER valued this stuff, and now it is big business. So now they realize they have to have serious asset management in place to deal with these assets.
So the industry is really changing and I think that is good for collectors. Less uncertainty about authenticity, more availability of items, and an above the board hobby, rather than an underground one.
Alec
1) Belongs to the studio
2) Is a rental
If it belongs to the studio and it "walks off the lot", it is stolen, PERIOD. If it is a rental, then the renter owns it and can sell it. This is the case of my hero Starbuck FN 5-7 pistol. I got it from the armorer who had rented them to the production.
Collectors want to dance around the issue that they may own stolen property. But if the studio doesn't official release it, it is stolen property, whether the prop master takes it, or an actor or whoever takes it. Unless the item was given to them or they received authorization to take the items. That is where the gray area is. Did they get approval? By someone with the authority to give it? Yeah, it is not an easy question.
That being said,the studios will not go after people who have props, because they generally don't value the stuff. So you don't have to worry (other than Lucasfilm) about studios coming after you. Plus, most props aren't expensive enough to warrant legal action (But some ar. Remember the FBI busting that guy for the stolen Spiderman suit?).
The Christie's Star Trek auction woke SOME studio people up. TV Studios are waking up a bit. NBC/Universal gets it and they understand the value of these assets since we made millions for them in the Battlestar Galactica auctions. Disney/ABC does because they have an awesome guy in charge of assets. CBS does and is trying to get that machine going.
As far as movie studios, well, there are lots of issues with them, but generally our efforts and those of others are starting to gain traction and making it easier for them to understand the issue. This is the key problem. Studios have NEVER valued this stuff, and now it is big business. So now they realize they have to have serious asset management in place to deal with these assets.
So the industry is really changing and I think that is good for collectors. Less uncertainty about authenticity, more availability of items, and an above the board hobby, rather than an underground one.
Alec
The Prop Stop
Sr Member
Of course the main problem with that is prior to say....2000 most of the collectible genre films of our time had already come out, and boatloads of props came onto the market years before thru Profiles, Star Wares, Startifacts, Starland, and a lot of dealers who arent even in the collecting world anymore.
Its all very well to lock up these current movies and say that the stuff is controlled and we know exactly whats out there, but when it comes to so many older movies the reason the stuff got out is because it went thru the backdoor, and if it hadn't it would have been thrown away or sprayed silver and used in "Captain Zep"....laughs.
We should never discount the underground days....surely Gary Kurtz letting stuff out of his private closet is about as underground as it comes...he may have been the producer but it was still Lucas's money.
In the mean time its nice to know that the studios have woken up....20 years ago I thought they had...but they went back to sleep...ROFL.
Its all very well to lock up these current movies and say that the stuff is controlled and we know exactly whats out there, but when it comes to so many older movies the reason the stuff got out is because it went thru the backdoor, and if it hadn't it would have been thrown away or sprayed silver and used in "Captain Zep"....laughs.
We should never discount the underground days....surely Gary Kurtz letting stuff out of his private closet is about as underground as it comes...he may have been the producer but it was still Lucas's money.
In the mean time its nice to know that the studios have woken up....20 years ago I thought they had...but they went back to sleep...ROFL.
I have very little sympathy for LFL. As an earlier person commented it is very common that the production company not ship all the items back from Tunisia, England, and other locales due to the excessive cost of shipping, inventory, and eventually storing these items. During Ep IV, V LFL left many of the items such as armor, helmets, etc with the local production companys and studio's. Only when they see others making major bucks did the obtain a very "lega interest".
From my experience, a large number of props are given away as keepsakes to crew and are not stolen or swiped from the set without knowledge. Like someone already said, most production companies just want to get rid of the stuff at break down time. Of course, the cooler the prop, the higher up the ladder the crew member to get it is likely to be. I am guessing Mr. Kurtz's (or formerly Mr. Kurtz's) Luke hero saber was not lifted or stolen from LFL, but was presented as a gift/keepsake. It no longer legally belongs to LFL. It would only be very rarely when some entity would come after these items and claim them as stolen. But whoever has that stolen Boba Fett prepro helmet should probably keep a low profile.
The problem is, trashed or not, the studio can always claim it wasn't given or thrown away, and the courts most likely will believe them over a small time collector.
I know people who got drawings and stuff from the trash at the Disney Animation Department, and then sold it.... Disney came down hard on them as they claimed it was still their property. Some of the Janitors were also nabbing stuff out of the trash cans and selling it to Disneyana collectors and Disney traced it back to the workers on duty.
They started enforcing the shredding of artwork even if it was discards.
I know people who got drawings and stuff from the trash at the Disney Animation Department, and then sold it.... Disney came down hard on them as they claimed it was still their property. Some of the Janitors were also nabbing stuff out of the trash cans and selling it to Disneyana collectors and Disney traced it back to the workers on duty.
They started enforcing the shredding of artwork even if it was discards.
propguy
Member
Interesting thread. I own a lot of items purchased from William Shatner's Hollywood Horse show event for his charities and from Fantasticon which was put on by William Campbell (who played Trelane and Koloth the Klingon in the Original Trek series). Both of these gentlemen would visit Paramount and get donations of props from the likes of Rick Berman, Herman Zimmerman and Dan Curry. While these people were in charge of their various departments at the studio, did they have the authority to donate these items, even if they were for charity? Are these items thrown in with the "walked off the lot" category?
And what of Bob Picardo's plexi pieces from Star Trek Voyager? Bob himself admitted at a convention that on the last day of shooting he went down and unscrewed every piece of plexi he could find so that he could auction them for his charities on the convention circuit over the next few years.......he did this just before they tore down the sets and threw them into dumpsters...........were these bidders buying stolen goods in the name of charity? All good questions.........
And what of Bob Picardo's plexi pieces from Star Trek Voyager? Bob himself admitted at a convention that on the last day of shooting he went down and unscrewed every piece of plexi he could find so that he could auction them for his charities on the convention circuit over the next few years.......he did this just before they tore down the sets and threw them into dumpsters...........were these bidders buying stolen goods in the name of charity? All good questions.........
propologist
Sr Member
yeah like all the guys that " acquire" pieces of the set after traveling to Tunisa , like Krayt Dragon bones etc. If it's trash, it's trash. If i lived in CA and other areas I would be dumpster diving all the time.
Linnear
Well-Known Member
Oh don't get me wrong....I don't want to be dogmatic here. There are a lot of legitimate ways for things to come off the set. The Picardo salvage situation is common and perfectly legit. (As TymerDC points out) The studio basically gives it's tacit approval for actors to take items that are going into the bin (and so much does...the studios don't value stuff). So salvage is always legit here. I think the law is technically in agreement here.
Now there are also the situation where the actor or employee is told he can have something. The Voyager set dec department delivered Picardo his Doctor's chair as a gift because he was so nice.
And then there are charity auctions which are of course legit, and even set visits (though this is often over used to cover for fakes) though not a lot gets off a set that way.
On the other hand there are a lot of people who know the value and trying to sell stuff. I know a bunch of the Iron man assets were offered for sale (I was offered the Mk I and Mk III armor 18 months ago) and the stuff was in fact at Legacy and going nowhere.
So there are lots of ways to get stuff, legit or not.
Alec
Now there are also the situation where the actor or employee is told he can have something. The Voyager set dec department delivered Picardo his Doctor's chair as a gift because he was so nice.
And then there are charity auctions which are of course legit, and even set visits (though this is often over used to cover for fakes) though not a lot gets off a set that way.
On the other hand there are a lot of people who know the value and trying to sell stuff. I know a bunch of the Iron man assets were offered for sale (I was offered the Mk I and Mk III armor 18 months ago) and the stuff was in fact at Legacy and going nowhere.
So there are lots of ways to get stuff, legit or not.
Alec
frightzone_4_you
Well-Known Member
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