Newbie With A Few Questions...Vader Helmets

C

cleric100

New Member
Hi all,
Been lurking for some time here,love reading up on alot of the things people have made and done.
Im curious about some SW props and hope to get myself going with a project soon...kinda got the bug now ya know?
:D

Anyways,im very interested in the different Vader Masks/Helmets(who isnt these days) and Im wondering why there are alot of differences,even subtle, in the movie props used in the different films.Each films seem to have a different mask,but the average person may not even notice.Is there a reason they did this?Why not the same design for all the films?

I know the mask and helmets can differ from different company molds when selling them to collectors and enthusaist,but always wondered why the film makers choosed to make new molds or casting for the films.

Hope this isnt too off topic for this section,Im just trying to learn a bit more about the decisons that were made and how it all came to be.

:)
 
Welcome and it's very on topic. I would change the title of your thread to something to do with changes in Darth Vader helmets in the movies or something like that, so you'll get more views :D.

There's no real rhyme or reason why Lucasfilm's crews made slight changes to the Darth Vader helmet except for ROTS in which they intentionally decided to make it symmetrical. Trisha Bigger, the costume designer for ROTS decided that one side of the mask was sagging so they replicated one side and made an identical second side. However, they chose the sagging side :lol

From ANH to ESB they either used an ANH helmet as a template for ESB or they just reused a leftover mold of an ANH helmet and made the chin vent larger and trimmed the widow's peak. From ESB to ROTJ any changes would just be from the molding process. Of course the tusks themselves changed from film to film but that's just based on what the crews could find that looked like tusks at the time.

My hunch regarding the ROTS Vader helmet change was that LFL wanted to make sure they had the rights locked down for that helmet. LFL already knew there would be copies of the original ANH/ESB/ROTJ helmet out there, so clearly they wanted something new, but not too much of a departure. So I'm sure there was partly a business decision there, not just an aesthetic one, because they had molds/castings from the OT anyway that they could have reused...and why not reuse it? Why change it?
 
Well, they changed a lot of things from movie to movie - style of the sets, props, armor, etc. The Stormtroopers underwent revisions as well. Some were done for wearability, others were done to tweak some stuff that wasn't satisfactory in the previous show... and others were done for no reason at all, but happened because of circumstance, availability of parts and new hands on the particular prop and costume.

We have all heard that Lucas wasn't satisfied with how Vader looked in ANH and that he considers the RotJ Vader to be THE Vader. Changes occur when the new costume is put together and they fix whatever they need to make things work better. The chin vent changed through the three OT movies to make it easier to breathe - practical change - and the dome ridge changed - aesthetic and artistic change... and other parts changed for whatever reason.

The RotS helmet is a joke - a quick, sloppy, mock solution - because of Lucas' weird thought that symmetrical would be cool, just because the clone helmets were... :eek. There is no "life" in that mask... it lost all sense of menace and is now nothing but a thoughtless waste of attempting "cool". They should have learned from Don Post when they did the same stunt with their Stormtrooper helmets - it does NOT work only taking one side and then mirroring it... it only makes it look bland and stupid. The best way to have executed this was to scan both sides, mirror the helmet onto itself and then use the computer to calculate the absolute symmetry - I'm sure that would have looked much cooler, though, have no way of checking it. Just my thoughts on the RotS helmet fiasco.
 
It's funny how things went with the Vader helmet. Lucas wasn't satisfied with the ANH look but ultimately that lid is probably the most popular among Vader collectors. :)

IMO, Vader's helmet got progressively less appealing. ANH was the pinnicle and ESB was a close 2nd but the ROTJ look didn't do it for me and the ROTS lid was a joke.

The best thing to do to learn about the differences in Vaders' helmets is to look at current and archieved Vader related threads because as Thomas has stated it is a very big topic. Also, we hope there will soon be a new RPF Darth Vader reference CD so you may want to try and get one of those.

Welcome to the RPF.
 
Thanks for all the info. I went ahead and added to the topic title ,maybe get some more feedback as well.
I do know,as everyone does,Lucas is/was? never done with SW's movies and never left well enough alone..always gotta go change everything..that being said,Vader was pretty well executed in ANH,but looked more or less sinister and shinier into ROTJ.Just didnt think he needed to have much changes,if any from the original mask.I guessed I answered my own question though about Lucas not leaving anything alone eh?
:)
 
I like threads like these :)

ANH certainly seems to be the most popular around the prop circle (no pun intended). I love that look. I am personally more of an ESB Vader collector but I have great interest in ANH Vader.

I agree with pretty much what has been said already. ROTJ looks too soft for me, menace wise the heightened fixing mech gives height to the dome exposing Vader's larger sader eyes to supposedley appeal to the audience for his redemption. The larger chin vent has little bearing with me, the difference in mesh color is well, just that different, personally all black worked for me twice before. As for the tusks :unsure Vaders ROTJ chestbox, belt box etc.. is all adequate just slightly different in each way from ESB. All in all the detail of alteration in the faceplate/dome combo is 3rd place for me.

Onto ROTS. :thumbsdown not my cup of tea at all, the only benefit is as a lifelong fan of Vader I am pleased that his poorest scenes in the trilogy were marked by an equally poor suit that has little resemblance to what I have in my collection based on the OT.
 
Would still like to see how the symmetrical helmet would have looked if they had taken both sides and mirrored them onto each other and had the comp calculate the absolute middle... that would be a fun project, though, I unfortunately lack the skills to do it myself... :cry
 
Film productions are like gypsies. They move in, take over, them move on again.
Which is very much what TCF did in 76 when they hired Thorn EMI Elstree.
A huge amount of people, people like Brian Muir, came together - worked
like dogs - then moved on to other things. As did the studio.

Also, ALOT of production elements were destroyed as they were not perceived
to be worth storing.

The film that was shot there "The Star Wars" was retitled (slightly) and
made a little bit of money and the rest is history.

So...

Come mid 78 - Lucasfilm directly negotiated with Elstree to hire for the shoots
of ESB and Raiders and also some permenant storage areas to facilitate the
housing of set pieces, costumes and props between the shoots of ESB and ROTJ.

When ESB was crewing up and in prep there were some different people involved in
different areas to the film that was now known as "A New Hope".

The Vader mask for ESB was most likely cast from an original. Or pehaps it was retooled
from the one that was never properly finished for 'ANH'.

Anyway, the bottom line is - no one would have even thought that almost 30 years later people
like us would be paining over HD screengrabs to analyze costume and prop elements.

Had they been going to work with that in mind - I think a] things would have had a stricter
linearity and b] the continuity woman would have had a heart attack.

So all many of these 'irregularities' come down to, with the exception of 'ROTS' Vader (spit.)
are the involvement of various people mixed with time and avaliability of matching
pieces. Like Honeywell pushbuttons :love
 
Film productions are like gypsies. They move in, take over, them move on again.
Which is very much what TCF did in 76 when they hired Thorn EMI Elstree.
A huge amount of people, people like Brian Muir, came together - worked
like dogs - then moved on to other things. As did the studio.

Also, ALOT of production elements were destroyed as they were not perceived
to be worth storing.

The film that was shot there "The Star Wars" was retitled (slightly) and
made a little bit of money and the rest is history.

So...

Come mid 78 - Lucasfilm directly negotiated with Elstree to hire for the shoots
of ESB and Raiders and also some permenant storage areas to facilitate the
housing of set pieces, costumes and props between the shoots of ESB and ROTJ.

When ESB was crewing up and in prep there were some different people involved in
different areas to the film that was now known as "A New Hope".

The Vader mask for ESB was most likely cast from an original. Or pehaps it was retooled
from the one that was never properly finished for 'ANH'.

Anyway, the bottom line is - no one would have even thought that almost 30 years later people
like us would be paining over HD screengrabs to analyze costume and prop elements.

Had they been going to work with that in mind - I think a] things would have had a stricter
linearity and b] the continuity woman would have had a heart attack.

So all many of these 'irregularities' come down to, with the exception of 'ROTS' Vader (spit.)
are the involvement of various people mixed with time and avaliability of matching
pieces. Like Honeywell pushbuttons :love
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bigbaddaddyvader @ Nov 24 2006, 08:10 PM) [snapback]1364872[/snapback]</div>
So am I utterly alone in actually liking the ROTS Vader then? :confused
[/b]
Click to expand...
Well, in the group of people who have posted to this topic: yes. All-round: probably not. Don't feel sad or alone... you like it and that's all that really matters. :)
 
I just feel sometimes that I'm the only person who actually liked that representation.I know it was different but,from my view,it needed to be to represent a different aspect of the character.Anyway i understand everyone's opinions and that's just my two cents.Nice to not be jumped on and pounded so thanks Carsten. :thumbsup
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bigbaddaddyvader @ Nov 24 2006, 01:10 PM) [snapback]1364872[/snapback]</div>
So am I utterly alone in actually liking the ROTS Vader then? :confused
[/b]
Click to expand...


I like the ROTS mask, but I'm not in love with it like the ESB mask or any of the OT masks. Its just it is possible to make something TOO good, and not like it.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bigbaddaddyvader @ Nov 24 2006, 03:10 PM) [snapback]1364872[/snapback]</div>
So am I utterly alone in actually liking the ROTS Vader then? :confused
[/b]
Click to expand...

No, there is another....... :)

I'm sure there are others here who like it. Kudos to you for standing up for it despite all the people here who don't like it.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bigbaddaddyvader @ Nov 24 2006, 02:10 PM) [snapback]1364872[/snapback]</div>
So am I utterly alone in actually liking the ROTS Vader then? :confused
[/b]
Click to expand...


No...I like it as well. It's just far from my fave, I'm an OT kinda guy.
 
Nice to know I'm not on my own.Don't get me wrong I also love the ESB mask and I am a big fan of the reveal also.I just thought there was something very striking about the ROTS helmet.It made it look unique and gave the character a pathos that the moment deserved.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bigbaddaddyvader @ Nov 24 2006, 10:43 PM) [snapback]1364956[/snapback]</div>
Nice to know I'm not on my own.Don't get me wrong I also love the ESB mask and I am a big fan of the reveal also.I just thought there was something very striking about the ROTS helmet.It made it look unique and gave the character a pathos that the moment deserved.
[/b]
Click to expand...
I think just the opposite, tbh. I think the look detracted from the scene... heck... the whole scene was lame... but that's just me.

Would have much more preferred a MacQuarrie Concept Vader to what was used. Also... Anakin should have built it himself. Bwah... better stop now before I get too wound up about the PTs... grr... :lol
 
Ah come on man.Anakin was holding onto life by the brute force of the dark side how could he have built it. :lol I also seem to be in a huge minority that thought the scene was fantastic.A great trick to actually make you feel terribly sorry for what was essentially a monster.I felt it really emphasised the depth of anakin's fall and the scale of his betrayal and treachery by exposing the level of his manipulation by Sidious(the opera scene is one of my all-time favourite SW scenes).I'm a fan of the prequels though so i dare say that that makes me a minority also. :lol
 
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