Ozymandius
Sr Member
Thanks for the pics. Every little bit of info helps. If you wouldn't mind, I could use some good clear photos of the feet from a few angles. That is the one area where all the existing photos are blurry or obscurred.
Maltese Falcon
- Thread starter Kwally89
- Start date
Thanks for the pics. Every little bit of info helps. If you wouldn't mind, I could use some good clear photos of the feet from a few angles. That is the one area where all the existing photos are blurry or obscurred.
lastdiplomat
Well-Known Member
Thanks for sharing how you came up with the measurements, Ozymandius. As Adam mentions in his talk, determining the right size was one of the most difficult parts of making his own sculpt. Glad to hear you recognize the flaws in the photos and have ways to overcome them. Always interesting to read how these props are sculpted. And a weathered version sounds very cool. I'm among those who always liked how the resin version looked in those auction photos. Really shows its history.
Anyone have photos of the dingus on display at the Warner Brothers' movie museum? Or any of the other surviving copies from the film?
Incidentally, I have this high quality image pulled off the web should you or anyone need it (lead version?): http://i37.tinypic.com/v7xzqs.jpg
And these two close-ups of the resin bird:
http://i35.tinypic.com/sevyv4.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/2u4qbkl.jpg
Anyone have photos of the dingus on display at the Warner Brothers' movie museum? Or any of the other surviving copies from the film?
Incidentally, I have this high quality image pulled off the web should you or anyone need it (lead version?): http://i37.tinypic.com/v7xzqs.jpg
And these two close-ups of the resin bird:
http://i35.tinypic.com/sevyv4.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/2u4qbkl.jpg
Last edited:
Ozymandius
Sr Member
Update time, and I've got good news and bad news.
The good news is that all the layout work is done and I'm satisfied that all the elements and shapes are in the right place and mathematically accurate to the original. All that's left now is to clean up the sculpt and fine tune the details. Probably take about two days.
The bad news is that I'm going to have to ditch the idea of putting the raw sculpt out for critique. The reason is that there are a lot of inconsistencies between the "black bird" screen captures and the auction photos of the weathered resin bird. This is caused primarily by the cracks and coloring of the resin bird creating optical illusions of feathers and lines that do not exist on the black bird. On top of that, there is a significant amount of lense distortion in the auction photos that also create misleading impressions of the shape.
Now I have spent the past three weeks resolving all these conflicts and figuring out what the real shapes and dimensions are, but anyone going at this cold would immediately be misled, just as I initially was. The inevitable result would be that I would be answering endless questions about issues that I've already dealt with, and we'd never get to mold.
One last note, just to assure you guys of what standards I'm using: I use the auction photos to give me a baseline for all the measurments. This gets me to within 80% accuracy. But the final word must always come down to whether or not it matches the screen captures from the movie itself. Most of the time it all lines up, but when it doesn't I default to the screen caps. The result I'm finding is that as soon as I do this, all the photos match, both screen captures and still publicity shots of the real bird.
Cheers
The good news is that all the layout work is done and I'm satisfied that all the elements and shapes are in the right place and mathematically accurate to the original. All that's left now is to clean up the sculpt and fine tune the details. Probably take about two days.
The bad news is that I'm going to have to ditch the idea of putting the raw sculpt out for critique. The reason is that there are a lot of inconsistencies between the "black bird" screen captures and the auction photos of the weathered resin bird. This is caused primarily by the cracks and coloring of the resin bird creating optical illusions of feathers and lines that do not exist on the black bird. On top of that, there is a significant amount of lense distortion in the auction photos that also create misleading impressions of the shape.
Now I have spent the past three weeks resolving all these conflicts and figuring out what the real shapes and dimensions are, but anyone going at this cold would immediately be misled, just as I initially was. The inevitable result would be that I would be answering endless questions about issues that I've already dealt with, and we'd never get to mold.
One last note, just to assure you guys of what standards I'm using: I use the auction photos to give me a baseline for all the measurments. This gets me to within 80% accuracy. But the final word must always come down to whether or not it matches the screen captures from the movie itself. Most of the time it all lines up, but when it doesn't I default to the screen caps. The result I'm finding is that as soon as I do this, all the photos match, both screen captures and still publicity shots of the real bird.
Cheers
Great to hear the progress. And while I wish we could see some shots of the bird as it stands, I understand your reasoning for not releasing them at the moment...we tend to be a very vocal bunch.
...and incidentally, the mystery makes it all the more intriguing to me. If it's already having that reaction in me, it MUST be the real deal.
Can't wait for more updates.
-Nick
...and incidentally, the mystery makes it all the more intriguing to me. If it's already having that reaction in me, it MUST be the real deal.
Can't wait for more updates.
-Nick
Really looking forward to seeing how this project turns out too, been reading this for a while now and am so pleased I didn't buy one off ebay!
GeordieIndy
Sr Member
I was wondering if this would be brought up as I didn't want to mention anything until I saw your falcon!
Do we know if the close up shots we see of the Falcon on screen where it gets rotated 360 degrees is the resin or lead bird?
I just wondered with the differences we see between the resin auction bird and the black bird, if this was down to whatever paint or covering the resin bird had over it when we see it on screen (if it was the resin bird), now it is down to the bare resin we can see more details... I do understand about the colouring and cracks etc.
btw, excellent additional photo's guys!!
Thanks!
GeordieIndy
Rotated bird is the lead bird. Publicity shots are resin bird.
GeordieIndy
Sr Member
Thanks!! That was the one thing I must have missed reading through all this!
GeordieIndy
GeordieIndy
division 6
Master Member
From what I recall HB dropped the lead bird on his foot at one point and asked for something lighter to carry around hence the resin bird.
That is what I have read several times, it may even be on the commentary on the dvd, I don't remember.
E...
That is what I have read several times, it may even be on the commentary on the dvd, I don't remember.
E...
Notice how light the bird appears in the very last scene of the movie, like it was made of marshmallow.
I can't wait to see the finished Bird. It's great to see the trouble you are going to to get the measurements just right.
Since you are going to be casting in so many different mediums how are you planning to account for all the different rates of shrink?
I'll be first inline,
BrianM
Since you are going to be casting in so many different mediums how are you planning to account for all the different rates of shrink?
I'll be first inline,
BrianM
Ozymandius
Sr Member
"Since you are going to be casting in so many different mediums how are you planning to account for all the different rates of shrink?"
Simple. I'm a freakin' silicone ninja. :ninja
Sorry, inside joke. I'm a master mold maker and I still get frequent calls from colleagues who need advice on how to mold or cast a tricky job. When I was working Harry Potter, I was the only guy they would let mold the original screen used stuff. So yeah, mold ninja.
Anyway, jokes and braggadocio aside, it's all about knowing your materials and their exothermic properties. Basically, the hotter the material gets, the more it shrinks.
Resins produce heat when they cure, but it is comparatively very little. And slower curing resins (such as the ones I prefer) produce even less. As a result the shrink rate is so negligable as to be almost nothing. Maybe a milimeter or two, at best.
Gypsums (plaster) by comparison not only produce more heat, but also loose moisture as they cure. It's still not a huge loss and only noticable when comparing side by side. Maybe an 1/8 to 1/4 of an inch smaller.
Waxes and metals, on the other hand, are solids that have to be melted down and are the hottest of all, by far. This is the reason that Mr. Savage lost 3/4 of an inch on his bronze casting. First he had to make a wax cast, where he lost size, and made a plaster mold of that. Then he had to pour molten bronze into that already smaller mold, which shrank more still.
Cold-cast bronze, on the other hand, is exactly that, cold. It has no more shrinkage than a resin casting. It's still made of real bronze, it's just that you don't have to melt it down.
Hope that answers you question. :ninja
Simple. I'm a freakin' silicone ninja. :ninja
Sorry, inside joke. I'm a master mold maker and I still get frequent calls from colleagues who need advice on how to mold or cast a tricky job. When I was working Harry Potter, I was the only guy they would let mold the original screen used stuff. So yeah, mold ninja.
Anyway, jokes and braggadocio aside, it's all about knowing your materials and their exothermic properties. Basically, the hotter the material gets, the more it shrinks.
Resins produce heat when they cure, but it is comparatively very little. And slower curing resins (such as the ones I prefer) produce even less. As a result the shrink rate is so negligable as to be almost nothing. Maybe a milimeter or two, at best.
Gypsums (plaster) by comparison not only produce more heat, but also loose moisture as they cure. It's still not a huge loss and only noticable when comparing side by side. Maybe an 1/8 to 1/4 of an inch smaller.
Waxes and metals, on the other hand, are solids that have to be melted down and are the hottest of all, by far. This is the reason that Mr. Savage lost 3/4 of an inch on his bronze casting. First he had to make a wax cast, where he lost size, and made a plaster mold of that. Then he had to pour molten bronze into that already smaller mold, which shrank more still.
Cold-cast bronze, on the other hand, is exactly that, cold. It has no more shrinkage than a resin casting. It's still made of real bronze, it's just that you don't have to melt it down.
Hope that answers you question. :ninja
Fresno
Well-Known Member
Can't wait. Glad to see a master mold maker taking on this project. Put me down for a bronze.
Cold-Cast Bronze or Bonded Bronze as it is sometimes called, is actually made of a polyester, epoxy or another resin. Bronze powder and paints are used to achieve the bronze appearance.
Hot-Cast Bronze is actually Bronze - essentially copper and tin; the tin not exceeding 11%. Other metals may be added to give different characteristics to the metal.
I've have both types of sculpture and the cold cast bronze seems to hold more fine detail.
Cold-Cast Bronze or Bonded Bronze as it is sometimes called, is actually made of a polyester, epoxy or another resin. Bronze powder and paints are used to achieve the bronze appearance.
Hot-Cast Bronze is actually Bronze - essentially copper and tin; the tin not exceeding 11%. Other metals may be added to give different characteristics to the metal.
I've have both types of sculpture and the cold cast bronze seems to hold more fine detail.
Jannix Quinn
Sr Member
I'd buy a hollow light one in whatever material. Well maybe not pus or vomit, but ALMOST any material.
Postage on lead would be outrageous.
Postage on lead would be outrageous.
GeordieIndy
Sr Member
Not sure if I have missunderstood the last two posts, so I apologise if I have...
Ozymandius - you stated "Cold-cast bronze, on the other hand, is exactly that, cold. It has no more shrinkage than a resin casting. It's still made of real bronze, it's just that you don't have to melt it down."
Fresno - you stated "Cold-Cast Bronze or Bonded Bronze as it is sometimes called, is actually made of a polyester, epoxy or another resin. Bronze powder and paints are used to achieve the bronze appearance."
So is Cold-Cast Bronze real bronze or not?
Ozymandius - On the bronze version you will offer what kind of weight do you anticipate the falcon will be and will you be using Cold-Cast Bronze?
Thanks again & sorry if I have not understood what is mentioned above!!
GeordieIndy
Ozymandius - you stated "Cold-cast bronze, on the other hand, is exactly that, cold. It has no more shrinkage than a resin casting. It's still made of real bronze, it's just that you don't have to melt it down."
Fresno - you stated "Cold-Cast Bronze or Bonded Bronze as it is sometimes called, is actually made of a polyester, epoxy or another resin. Bronze powder and paints are used to achieve the bronze appearance."
So is Cold-Cast Bronze real bronze or not?
Ozymandius - On the bronze version you will offer what kind of weight do you anticipate the falcon will be and will you be using Cold-Cast Bronze?
Thanks again & sorry if I have not understood what is mentioned above!!
GeordieIndy
The cold-cast bronze I know of is actual bronze powder suspended in a resin and allowed to cure. There may be another type, but that's all I know of.
As has been said though, being a process involving low temperatures and low viscosity fluid in a mold, cold-cast can often give you finer details...but a lot of that depends upon the skill of the person doing the molding and casting. I've seen horrible cold casts, and I've seen amazingly detailed hot processed bronze casts. I think given Ozy's skill, we shouldn't be too worried about any of that.
-Nick
As has been said though, being a process involving low temperatures and low viscosity fluid in a mold, cold-cast can often give you finer details...but a lot of that depends upon the skill of the person doing the molding and casting. I've seen horrible cold casts, and I've seen amazingly detailed hot processed bronze casts. I think given Ozy's skill, we shouldn't be too worried about any of that.
-Nick
With cold cast, typically, you use a small amount of bronze powder, mixed into the outer most layer of resin. Its not real bronze in the sense people would consider a bronze statue, but moreso a resin statue with some bronze suspended in the outermost layer of resin. Make sense?
GeordieIndy
Sr Member
Yeah that makes sense and I understand it now, thanks!! But it was just when Ozymandius said "It's still made of real bronze...", that confused me a bit.
Thanks,
GeordieIndy
Thanks,
GeordieIndy
Similar threads
