Lucasfilm to Strike Back March 7th - Lucasfilm vs Andrew Ainsworth

I'm not siding with anyone but to say "Lucas admitted defeat and withdrew the claim" Says alot..... I would still like to see evidence that Liz did sculpt the helmet... There is no photographic evidence of such and no documentation.... It's all hearsay as far as I can gather? I'm not saying she didn't and if she did then by all right she should get all the recognition that she deserves...... But it seems to be ones word against another and in a court of law that just won't stand up......I think we all know that AA didn't sculpt it but that's not to say Nick didn't.....again hearsay..... It would be really nice to see some solid proof and get this thing buried for good and the true sculpter get the credit due.....
 
It would be nice to get a rock solid confirmation, sure.

However, if that's not possible, we only have the physical data to interpret. We know Liz Moore's talent. We've seen her work. What have we seen of Nick Pembertons work? Does he have a body of work to show his skills and style? I find it weird that there is nothing shown off to show what he's capable of.

If the trooper is the only thing he ever did... then I don't buy that he sculpted it.
 
I know that and I'm not saying Brian is wrong but that's still not solid proof.... Not that would stand up in court anyway.....
 
I see the sskunky point, but if not a picture, there should be a contract or some signed papers, I think so.
 
KaanE,

That's what I'm getting at. It seems strange that there wouldn't be some kind of paper trail to verify who did create it beyond all doubt.....
 
It isn't really strange, as it just does not seem to be the way things were done back then. As far as proof goes, it is about as solid as it will get with the things Ainsworth and Brian have said. I could be mis-remembering, but Ainsworth said that Pemberton used an ashtray in his sculpt. He said that Liz Moore also sculpted something, but that the "blue" one was rejected. The blue one had the ashtray.

Sometimes you have to settle for hearsay when it comes to things like this. So, we know Liz Moore did work, we know Lucas rejected the helmet with the ash tray. We know Pemberton used an ashtray in his "sculpt". Sometimes 1+1 does equal 2.
 
Yeah, Fair point.
I just think if we are all to ostracize someone for being a liar then we should have proof beyond reasonable doubt otherwise it is a witch hunt. That said there are a great deal of contradictory facts being put froward.....
 
Yeah, Fair point.
I just think if we are all to ostracize someone for being a liar then we should have proof beyond reasonable doubt otherwise it is a witch hunt. That said there are a great deal of contradictory facts being put froward.....
Such as?

Hell, even the judge all but called him a liar. Sorry, I am VERY comfortable in ostracizing Ainsworth. He built his ENTIRE business on things that were less than true.
 
It isn't really strange, as it just does not seem to be the way things were done back then. As far as proof goes, it is about as solid as it will get with the things Ainsworth and Brian have said. I could be mis-remembering, but Ainsworth said that Pemberton used an ashtray in his sculpt. He said that Liz Moore also sculpted something, but that the "blue" one was rejected. The blue one had the ashtray.

Sometimes you have to settle for hearsay when it comes to things like this. So, we know Liz Moore did work, we know Lucas rejected the helmet with the ash tray. We know Pemberton used an ashtray in his "sculpt". Sometimes 1+1 does equal 2.

I really want to believe Liz did the job, and actually I do. I'm sure there should be any kind of signed papers in the archives, and I know it's the way it was done back at the 70s because George Lucas had to do a "himself" contract to show to the Fox he was the director. So he had to prove every $ spent to the Fox.


Hell, even the judge all but called him a liar. Sorry, I am VERY comfortable in ostracizing Ainsworth. He built his ENTIRE business on things that were less than true.

+1 :thumbsup
 
"Outside of anyone's testimony, is there any definitive proof (photographic or otherwise) showing who sculpted who regarding the characters for ANH?
The only stuff I've seen is Brian sculpting CZ3, some 3po stuff from Liz, Freeborn working on Chewie, and Baker providing a good portion of the cantina aliens."



there in lies the problem until this can be found then i feel AA has this court case by the short and curlys
 
"Outside of anyone's testimony, is there any definitive proof (photographic or otherwise) showing who sculpted who regarding the characters for ANH?
The only stuff I've seen is Brian sculpting CZ3, some 3po stuff from Liz, Freeborn working on Chewie, and Baker providing a good portion of the cantina aliens."


there in lies the problem until this can be found then i feel AA has this court case by the short and curlys
Then you misunderstand what this court case is about. It is about the Stormtroopers being declared "Industrial Design", not about Ainsworth sculpting anything.
 
I'm not siding with anyone but to say "Lucas admitted defeat and withdrew the claim" Says alot..... I would still like to see evidence that Liz did sculpt the helmet... There is no photographic evidence of such and no documentation.... It's all hearsay as far as I can gather? I'm not saying she didn't and if she did then by all right she should get all the recognition that she deserves...... But it seems to be ones word against another and in a court of law that just won't stand up......I think we all know that AA didn't sculpt it but that's not to say Nick didn't.....again hearsay..... It would be really nice to see some solid proof and get this thing buried for good and the true sculpter get the credit due.....

LFL withdrew the claim, but that doesn't mean AA won the point. The best the judge could say was it was probably Pemberton's work, which is good enough for civil purposes. The testimony on the colour of clay was unfortunate for LFL's case certainly, but it did not make the point unassailable if the will to fight it was there.

They could have brought in expert testimony from those learned in sculpture to establish whether the same hand that sculpted work undoubtedly by Liz Moore created the Stormtrooper's helmet, much the same as they do for old masters whose authenticity is in doubt.

Admittedly without the original sculpture it would be hard to prove beyond doubt: but the level of proof required here is "the balance of probabilities" which in laymans terms merely means they have to show it was more likely to be the work of one artist rather than another.

They could attack the validity of the photo, not as to subject matter but as to whether the colour balance gives a true impression; much as Brian Muir has done here.

I think the discussion here (which is in far more depth than it ever would have been at the trial) does enough to rebut the"red clay" testimony and show it more likely that Liz Moore was in fact the maker of the sculpture.

The fact of it is who actually sculpted the "red clay" bust was of minor import anyway. The bulk of the copyright argument was on the fact that any rights vested in AA were the equitable (and therefore legal by operation of law) property of LFL: a point on which they won unreservedly. To go to any greater lengths to prove such a minor point would be unwarranted, and would require further time to prepare, which would not please the court.

There is not much hearsay, and by sifting it there is still plenty of good hard testimony to look at. Most of the facts that we are discussing come from Mr Muir, who was there and directly involved. That is direct testimony, and admissible in court. He would probably have made a good expert witness on identifying the progenitor of the sculpt. If you are reading this Mr Muir, does the sculpt look to be consistent with the work of Liz Moore in your judgment as a sculptor?

In any case it is dangerous to use terms you don't fully understand in arguments, as it makes rebuttal from those who do that much easier. Don't take this as a personal rebuke; we all do it, and you are far from alone in doing so in this thread. I myself am guilty of it elsewhere, and feel suitably foolish when called on it.

The most telling thing in this is that AA tries to make such a big deal out of so small a victory.

Finally one witnesses word can be taken over another's, and be decisive in court. It comes down to the credibility of the witness. In this case Brian Muir's evidence was regarded in the most positive of terms at trial. The same can not be said of AA's. Take of that what you will.

Personally if I were LFL I'd publish a big article in their various publications celebrating Liz Moore's contributions; including the Stormtrooper and see if AA is bold enough to sue. In any case the broader fan base who have little interest in this will read it and the truth (at least as I see it) will be out there.
 
Personally if I were LFL I'd publish a big article in their various publications celebrating Liz Moore's contributions; including the Stormtrooper and see if AA is bold enough to sue. In any case the broader fan base who have little interest in this will read it and the truth (at least as I see it) will be out there.
Yes, they should definitely go out and honor the sculptors and craftsmen who made Star Wars what it is.

I would still like to see what Pemberton is actually capable of creating. It would be the best way to determine likelihood of who sculpted the piece. We know Liz Moore's work and she's definitely more than capable of creating the sculpt. But what of Pemberton? It doesn't really seem like he did much of anything... of that caliber. Based on that... the likelihood still leans strongly towards Liz Moore in a sort of no-contest kinda deal.
 
To date, outside of people's testimony, I have not seen any proof (photographic or otherwise) of who actually sculpted the stormtroopers or darth vader.
I think we as wide-eyed fans are all to quick to swallow the claims made by people who we know were genuinely attached to the film productions without requiring any real proof of the actual work they did or the size/scope of their role in a particular project.
Mostly because their stories sound legit (to us) coupled with the notion that we WANT to believe them.

I had really hoped that this trial would unearth some of that mystery but so far not so much.
PS, the now famous photo of the two clay sculpts was provided from the Kurtz photo archive if I'm not mistaken.


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I find it funny you talk about proof when you often offer none to support your claims.

I don't mean this in any disrespecting manner, but you continually question people who worked on the movie - sure, they are not infallible - but your sources must surely come from those same lines of people that you so openly, constantly question.
 
Fan of their work or not, that is teetering VERY close to calling people's integrity into question, Gino. My point in bringing up the photo was that I believe LFL did not even know such a photo existed until Brian had informed them of it. I may be wrong in my recollection of this tale, though.
 
If I understand correctly, the photo of the two sculpts was unearthed from the Kurtz photo archive. Not from LFL or Brian.


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