Fate of the Original ANH Vader Mask Confirmed: ESB

[SithLord]

I was studying images as usual and lo and behold, the chin vent grill of the original Vader mask as seen in Star Wars ANH is identical to the grill on the mask Kenny Baker is seen wearing in a behind the scenes photograph.

Therefore the original ANH mask did indeed end up in the production of ESB.

I did a bit of intensity profiling, thresholding and segmentation just to illustrate the similarities of certain features within the images (like I usually do at work).

Not only that, I was able to confirm that it matches the ANH mask seen onscreen during the Vader Hoth entrance scene based on particular details (one example of which is in the box).

And yes this was suspected as being a possible fate of the original ANH mask, but I always like to be sure.

I love fuzzy images.

 

[RBJ]

Wasn't Carsten ( no humor man / too much garlic ) saying this for a while now?

 

[SithLord]

No I think he was referring to ROTJ since the lenses seemed to be the same in one particular image of Warwick Davis wearing an ANH mask. But as I said this was suspected already...but not proven. If it was then carried over to ROTJ...all the better. But this shows that it survived in ESB...and therefore as Carsten suspected could have been carried over to ROTJ.

 

[SithLord]

This is what Carsten posted before...I actually agree with Carsten, so then they cut out the chin vent to add insult to injury.

 

[SithLord]

Ok I think I found the thread you meant...

http://www.therpf.com/f9/fate-anh-helmet-turned-esb-92871/

But he didn't prove it, and he also relied in part on my own analysis of scratches on the lenses I had posted before that thread.

And to quote him:

First we have the Hoth helmet - could very well be the screen worn ANH. It is not possible to determine much from the screen captures, as it is seen only for a short moment and not up close, but there is a picture of Kenny Baker wearing what seems to be the Hoth Helmet and it looks way more worn and different from the regular ESB helmets:

And...

The reason for these helmets' inclusion in this theory is because of the ANH chin vent, clearly different paint shine and the suggestiveness of the Kenny Baker shot, but the link to THE ANH with this helmet is a bit inconclusive as the reference is not good enough. It may be a different helmet altogether.

And...

Which leads me to the sad conclusion of my theory that the original ANH IS NO MORE - at least not as we saw it on screen - but still exists and was converted into an ESB style helmet that we see in both ESB and RotJ and pictures.

This thread shows proof of that...and specifically that it appeared as an ANH in ESB.

 

[Darth Niob]

Very good arguments i think.

 

[CSMacLaren]

Wasn't Carsten ( no humor man / too much garlic ) saying this for a while now?

You're right. Carsten has indeed mention this on several occasions.

Also, Thomas, I've read Carsten's analysis on the lens scratches before reading yours, so you can't say his analysis was based on yours.

But good to see you bringing confirmation.

 

[gizmo]

Cool.I always hoped the original would turn up oneday in it`s original form.Oh well.:cry

 

[HAL9000]

So, are we saying that the ANH dome was modded too or just the faceplate?
Also, how difficult would it be to expand the chin vent on a finished piece?

 

[Too Much Garlic]

I'm not seeing anything to goes beyond supposition here. For a fact, the ESB hero helmet and the stunt has same grill and alignment, so I hope you have a lot more than these blurry images to build your claim on. I left mine open for people to decide for themselves, as the things I highlighted are plausible to suggest the same helmet, not confirmation. Yours is barely proof, unless you have more you haven't shown.

The likelihood that the ANH was re-used for the other productions is high, but I'm not seeing any proof here.

I would think that if done carefully you can file open the chin vent without damaging too much of the paint work, and they could likely have used touch-up makers (like Eller used during the tour) to fix the paint work at the vent.

 

[SithLord]

Well, for a grill like that with many fine intersection points to line up perfectly is quite a coincidence, wouldn't you say? If you can show me another mask, any mask, with that kind of grill in that exact positioning I'd like to see it.

But that detail I pointed out on the neck is on the screen ANH. That is pretty obvious to me. Check your Corbis photos...it is there as well. Or have a look below...

Not only that. On the Vader's right side of the neck front center there are some very light horizontal streaks in the paintwork...one of them I found on the screenshot, in addition to a couple of details on the side of the mouth.

It is the original screen ANH mask.

And to answer HAL9000 yes we are just talking about the fate of the mask, the fate of the dome cannot be determined at this point in time (and no it isn't the funeral pyre helmet).

 

[Too Much Garlic]

I've looked at many ANH pictures to see if that mark is there on the neck. Listen, I'm not questioning that you may be right, I'm just saying you need a lot more evidence than grill positioning to make such a conclusive statement. I'm sure I'd be able to match it to the LFL archive picture as well. And didn't you previously state that the Hoth helmet couldn't be the ANH because the chin vent was too large for ANH but too small for ESB or was that someone else? Funny how you keep changing your mind after I've made a comment or suggestion about certain helmets seen in pictures and on display.

 

[vaderdarth]

That last point is pretty significant Thomas. It's hard to simply cover up a paint detail like that with more paint, it is obviously showing through the new paint. I'm not totally convinced with just the grill analysis, though it does seem to imply what you're suggesting. I think we are definitely another step closer to proof this helmet was the ANH helmet. Damn those guys!!!!! Good points Carsten and Thomas.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

That paint detail you are highlighting on the Corbis photo is also on the later Hoth helmet - it has the same neck detail but is painted quite differently, the Bespin helmet as well, so it isn't a conclusive detail inherent purely on the ANH screen mask - it was carried over to ESB helmets as well. If you wanna get technical about it then the ESB Poster helmet has it as well.

EDIT: the nick is faintly seen on the Warwick Davis photo, however, it's too small and grainy, so could just be pixel artifacts.

 

[SithLord]

Which nick do you mean? Do you mean that paint marking I showed in the box or something else?

I can check the Warwick photo again since I actually didn't look at the neck on that, just on the screen caps.

But as I said before, if you look at the side view, look at the side of the mouth triangle...at the darker spots...they actually match darker spots on the screen mask...but that is harder to show. But I'll try later, as well as one of the horizontal bright markings on Vader's right side neck. Those would not come through on a painted ESB mask.

Even if I saw no markings in common, the chin vent is clearly the same, especially given the number of intersection points that would have to be lined up, that isn't by chance. I've lined up many grills in many images before and even if there is a slight difference usually I find it in the overlays, but if you do the 50% overlay the two overlapping images just jump out as one coherent image.

But seeing markings in common after finding the chin vent grill lines up perfectly adds icing to the cake.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

I have told you before that when doing the 50% overlay, the two pictures merge into each other, so cannot be trusted. That's how I made my symmetrical pictures. So anyone using that will get a false match. Only a 100% overlay with cropped out areas showing the second layer picture can be trusted.

And yes, I mean the paint marking. Please mark with a line where on the Corbis picture you think you see the scratch.

You need a lot more things matching before you can make the claim of confirmation that it IS the screen used ANH. I'll sit back and let you present your case, as this really cannot be all you have to base it on.

It'll be quite something if it really IS the screen used ANH seen ON SCREEN in ESB, at least once.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

With the high-def version it should be possible to get pretty close on the helmet when capturing frames - saw that when someone posted zoomed in pictures of the brooch worn by Gary Oldman in Dracula. Would be really cool if someone could do a lot of grabs from that entrance scene.

 

[vaderdarth]

Doh! You're right Carsten, if they took the ANH helmet and moulded that, the paint blob might also show up in the resulting castings. Definitely shows it as a source helmet one way or the other. Still kinda hard to say 100% proof however that it is THE ANH helmet.

 

[Vadermonkey]

Considering that the ANH belt/buckle was reused unaltered in ESB as well as the chest armor (repainted) and at least some of the leathers...odds are the helmet was reused also. But I agree, although it is a good comp I dont think we can call it a slam dunk based on the *publicly* available material alone.

 

[CSMacLaren]

I'm quite fascinated by the light intensity graph Thomas did. However, the comparison is between two different photography distances, different kinds of cameras, types of lighting, and ultimately two different orientations (rotation and degree of nod).

As much as I'd like to believe this can lead to a slam dunk conclusion, the very most I can say is that it only confirms that mesh of a similar or same source was used.

How conclusive can one get with comparing the chin triangles when the masks are of different orientations and won't line up in Photoshop?