vaderdarth
Master Member
Qui and TMG, I couldn't agree more. I will try my best to stick to DJ from here out. You are right, the garbage offered by that other guy is all recast off the lesser pedigree helmets as a rule ie GH and 20th C recasts.
eFX A New Hope Darth Vader Helmet
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I agree. The proper shape and paint scheme are both so much more important than maintaining every single divot and imperfection (unless it's something that actually affects the overall shape).
vaderdarth
Master Member
Not to everyone JediCarl. It matters as much as shape to quite a few people. That's why it's different for each person here. It doesn't have to mean anything to you or some other guy...it means much to me. 
Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
But if you have one with all of the bumps and divots, then the rest is fluff. I would like one, but it will never reach "Want" stage with ANH Vader. ESB Vader is THE Vader to me.
Not to everyone JediCarl. It matters as much as shape to quite a few people. That's why it's different for each person here. It doesn't have to mean anything to you or some other guy...it means much to me.
Well, sure. That's just my opinion. Everyone's mileage will vary.
I suppose the question could be asked, if you (HYPOTHETICALLY) had to choose between the following, which would you choose?
a) A Vader helmet that has the correct shape & dimensions of the original, but has had a few of the minor divot/bump imperfections cleaned up
or
b) A Vader helmet that is off in shape, size, dimension, but has maintained every single topical blemish
For me, the choice would be A. Every single time. But I acknowledge that wouldn't be everyone's choice. And that's cool.
BTW, I'm not saying either the eFX or the SL/DG, et al. necessarily fit into either A or B. Again, it's hypothetical. And yes, I know the real diehards will cop-out and say, "C. Neither" :lol
Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
I'm gonna say "A".
Juansith
Well-Known Member
Not to everyone JediCarl. It matters as much as shape to quite a few people. That's why it's different for each person here. It doesn't have to mean anything to you or some other guy...it means much to me.
As Gino mentioned on a post, what difficult achievement to EFX, trying to please everyones desires, and by that note, only 250 were made, imagine pleasing a thousand.
I guess EFX first went with shape accuracy, then they went to see which of the scratch marks and boogers would make it.
I honestly dont care about the latter as much, and the people who do care about them i get the feeling most of them already have another helmet which has most of them.I dont know if it would be hard, but the one who bought a Legend and have access to all those bump maps, you could add them later... Again i dont knkw how easy that could be.
The center ridge though, that one i was interested that it was preserved with all those nice creases, and sharp eyebrows. Those i think, are important features and they came out nicely.
Still theres only 250 of the Legends, so its pretty exclusive, i hope recaters dont put their hands on one.... Now this was naive.
Too Much Garlic
Master Member
Well, why go with those hypothetical options when they did two versions?
A: One for the über analed guys regarding warts and all + shape.
B: And one for the idealized crowd concentrating on the shape.
They offered both for the sole reason to cater to those of us who do have interest in those details - those who don't and was only interested in shape had the sanitized option. We are just arguing about the level of warts and all + shape they left on the A option, when they could have left it ALL.
And just because I'm arguing that doesn't mean I'm trying to belittle the eFX. If I hadn't just made a commission to get something painted I would have bought a Legend. And I was only ever interested in the Limited previously.
Yeah, but I'm not focusing on the eFX offering. I'm just genuinely curious to see how many would actually choose "B". I think there might actually be folks who care more about the bumps & nicks than the overall shape. And that's fine. Their own taste & opinion. I just find it interesting.
Too Much Garlic
Master Member
I would prefer if it had it all, but yes, I would probably take a warped with all details over a sanitized with good shape. Or more correctly, I would try to obtain both, if it couldn't be had in just one cast.
vaderdarth
Master Member
Personally I'd choose the one that has a nice mix of both form and detail. Can't know until I hold in my hand. Then I compare and the one that overall pleases me most is my new favorite
Qui I used to be an ESB Vader fanatic, but after a while, I yearned for more.............cause there's nothing like your first!
Qui I used to be an ESB Vader fanatic, but after a while, I yearned for more.............cause there's nothing like your first!
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vaderdarth
Master Member
I'm gonna get me one of them thar efx helmets and I'm gonna get me one of them divots and then maybe I'll be happy.
I said divots, I think they thought I said crickets!
I jest!!!
I said divots, I think they thought I said crickets!
I jest!!!
You sound like a politician, Carsten(not that there's anything wrong with that).:lol
Gotta agree with that statement.
GINO
Sr Member
There has been a great deal of discussion regarding the clean up of the eFX Vader helmets and a bit of concern and criticism leveled due to the cleanup work I performed with the obvious question being why not just leave the helmet exactly as it came from the Rick Baker mold.
The answer is somewhat complicated.
There are two main reasons:
1. While many people claim to want their replicas to be as close to the original as possible, the vast majority of eFX customers wouldn't want the Darth Vader helmet as-is if they saw it straight from the mold (even for the Legend edition).
2. The more significant and unavoidable reason is due to manufacturing limitiations
Customer expectations
Make no mistake, the Darth Vader helmet straight out of the Baker mold has all the warts of the original tantive helmet. There are dings, dents, and surface blemishes everywhere. Some very noticeable, others not so much.
99% of eFX’s customer base has no knowledge of most of these topical blemishes. And even if they did, would not desire them in a replica.
Any successful business plan caters to the 99%, not the 1% of those who would want completely unmodified raw castings.
Manufaturing limitations
When castings are mass produced in a manufacturing setting (whether they be in china or elsewhere), there are going to be topical 'flaws' and air bubbles etc.. found in the production castings.
It is unavoidable on a project of this scale.
Those topical anomalies are corrected on the production line, just as when someone makes a run of replicas here, you often have to perform minor cleanup when you get a casting.
The problem is, there is no way for the people on the production line making these helmets to know which 'flaws' are original and supposed to be kept vs. ones that are new flaws and not supposed to be there.
It is an unreasonable expectation to think we could educate them to the level of knowledge that would enable them to decide which dings/boogers should be there on their own.
Because it is a standard practice in any manufacturing situation, the line workers are used to cleaning up and perfecting castings.
This practice makes them have a strong tendency to fill in/clean up any perceived flaw in the production castings.
With the Darth Vader Legend helmet, we are forcing those workers to do something that goes completely against any other project they've ever worked on which is to leave perceived flaws in the castings. It is like pulling teeth.
In order to achieve this, we took the time to sit down and map out every dent/booger we wanted them to leave alone and not 'fix'.
This was done by carefully examining the helmet and deciding which dents/boogers were the most important to keep visually, and could be easily/consistently pointed out to the factory workers.
This might not sound like a very difficult task, but in reality it was not only daunting for the skill level of the people doing the work, but costly for eFX.
It is probably hard to imagine but it actually takes MORE time and effort to selectively clean up a helemt casting than to simply clean the entire helmet of perceived imperfections.
The more dents/boogers that have to be verified, the more difficult the piece is to make, the slower the manufacturing process becomes, and the more expensive the piece is to produce.
eFX worked very hard to find the best balance.
Hopefully this helps you better understand why a minimal cleanup was necessary and unavoidable.
It is easy to throw out hypotheticals that on the surface seem like they might have been better solutions, but the truth is, given the nature of mass production, the final decisions made by eFX went far above and beyond any previous efforts by anyone mass producing a replica to preserve as much original detail as reasonably possible for the fans to enjoy.
In the big picture of things, the surface clean up was still extremely minimal.
I am certain those who purchase either the Limtied or the Legend will be beyond satisfied with what we came up with.
The answer is somewhat complicated.
There are two main reasons:
1. While many people claim to want their replicas to be as close to the original as possible, the vast majority of eFX customers wouldn't want the Darth Vader helmet as-is if they saw it straight from the mold (even for the Legend edition).
2. The more significant and unavoidable reason is due to manufacturing limitiations
Customer expectations
Make no mistake, the Darth Vader helmet straight out of the Baker mold has all the warts of the original tantive helmet. There are dings, dents, and surface blemishes everywhere. Some very noticeable, others not so much.
99% of eFX’s customer base has no knowledge of most of these topical blemishes. And even if they did, would not desire them in a replica.
Any successful business plan caters to the 99%, not the 1% of those who would want completely unmodified raw castings.
Manufaturing limitations
When castings are mass produced in a manufacturing setting (whether they be in china or elsewhere), there are going to be topical 'flaws' and air bubbles etc.. found in the production castings.
It is unavoidable on a project of this scale.
Those topical anomalies are corrected on the production line, just as when someone makes a run of replicas here, you often have to perform minor cleanup when you get a casting.
The problem is, there is no way for the people on the production line making these helmets to know which 'flaws' are original and supposed to be kept vs. ones that are new flaws and not supposed to be there.
It is an unreasonable expectation to think we could educate them to the level of knowledge that would enable them to decide which dings/boogers should be there on their own.
Because it is a standard practice in any manufacturing situation, the line workers are used to cleaning up and perfecting castings.
This practice makes them have a strong tendency to fill in/clean up any perceived flaw in the production castings.
With the Darth Vader Legend helmet, we are forcing those workers to do something that goes completely against any other project they've ever worked on which is to leave perceived flaws in the castings. It is like pulling teeth.
In order to achieve this, we took the time to sit down and map out every dent/booger we wanted them to leave alone and not 'fix'.
This was done by carefully examining the helmet and deciding which dents/boogers were the most important to keep visually, and could be easily/consistently pointed out to the factory workers.
This might not sound like a very difficult task, but in reality it was not only daunting for the skill level of the people doing the work, but costly for eFX.
It is probably hard to imagine but it actually takes MORE time and effort to selectively clean up a helemt casting than to simply clean the entire helmet of perceived imperfections.
The more dents/boogers that have to be verified, the more difficult the piece is to make, the slower the manufacturing process becomes, and the more expensive the piece is to produce.
eFX worked very hard to find the best balance.
Hopefully this helps you better understand why a minimal cleanup was necessary and unavoidable.
It is easy to throw out hypotheticals that on the surface seem like they might have been better solutions, but the truth is, given the nature of mass production, the final decisions made by eFX went far above and beyond any previous efforts by anyone mass producing a replica to preserve as much original detail as reasonably possible for the fans to enjoy.
In the big picture of things, the surface clean up was still extremely minimal.
I am certain those who purchase either the Limtied or the Legend will be beyond satisfied with what we came up with.
vaderdarth
Master Member
that was a very well written response gino. So was the brow divot present on the Baker mould or was it removed by you or just the factory? I only ask because it's a major landmark and not some minor little detail. Your answer will help all of us decide how major or minor the cleanup procedure is. It almost sounds like no two helmets will be alike if the factory guys do the majority of cleanup. That might not be the case if you did it prior. Peace,
Dave
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