Doctor Who - The End of Time - Part 2 (Spoilers)

[Risu]

I loved what he did in Waters of Mars, but End of Time dropped the ball big time. Just all around. The Doctor's character, the handling of the Timelords, that completely futile skydiving incident..... End of Time was two hours of boring setup, 2 minutes of intense action, 10 minutes of Davies fondling himself, and then the regeneration.

 

[DuneMuadDib]

I loved what he did in Waters of Mars, but End of Time dropped the ball big time. Just all around. The Doctor's character, the handling of the Timelords, that completely futile skydiving incident..... End of Time was two hours of boring setup, 2 minutes of intense action, 10 minutes of Davies fondling himself, and then the regeneration.

Totally spaced out on that. How can a Timelord survive that kind of fall with nary an injury but some scratches on his face? Totally took me out of the moment. And it's one thing for the Timelords to be pompous a-holes, but when they get so mad as to rival Davros' megalomania for universal genocide well I just am at a loss for words.

But then again RTD wrote the Tenth Doctor as a vindictive superior a-hole who could only really be reigned in by a pretty bottle blonde. Boy I hope the Eleventh Doctor has some humanity and humility. Where's the Doctor who was giddy that "just this once, everybody lives?" We got four years of a Doctor who won't pick up a gun, but doesn't give second chances and will manipulate those around him into killing in his name and won't bat an eye at it unless it's done without his permission.

 

[sapper36]

I'm looking forward to seeing what the special 5 minutes Tennant recorded specifically for BBC America audiences is. It's nice to see recognition for us fans here across the pond.

Where can I see this? This is the only mention I've seen of this.

 

[Birdie]

But then again RTD wrote the Tenth Doctor as a vindictive superior a-hole who could only really be reigned in by a pretty bottle blonde

Somewhat (or vastly..) simplified, but yeah. 10 had the Timelord arrogance/potential megalomania boiling under the surface from the beginning. He believed in the human race having a huge potential for good, but it conflicted with his darker side.

He thoughtthat without a companion all the death and pain experienced by those he got close to could be avoided. That was a pretty big theme that was expanded on from School Reunion onwards, along with the Doctor's immortality against a human's tiny span of life.

Instead of some kind of peace, the Doctor's solitary travels lead to these elements beginning to overwhelm him, leading to the events of Waters of Mars, where he lost control his Messiah complex, then tried to run from it.

By the end he had come to fight with the feelings of not only the Doctor being the ultimate force in the galaxy, but his current incarnation being superior to all the others, hence his terror of 'death'.

His little rant at Wilf was that character coming to the fore for the last time before he conquered it, saving Wilf and accepting his need to change into something else.

You make not like the journey that RTD took the Doctor on, butting putting it down to bad writing is, I think, wrong. Davies' shortcomings as a writer lie in poor and repetitive plotting, bad gags and personal agenda. In terms of character, 10 went to places we've never seen the Doctor go before, and I think he was largeley successful in that aim.

 

[B-Movie Zombie]

I agree!

 

[cboath]

Frankly I'm a little glad to see the 10th Doctor go. His whole rant at Wilfred before stepping in the chamber seemed to me just short of him saying he's better than Wilfred and he shouldn't have to sacrifice himself like that. The Tenth Doctor just grew more and more full of himself and that was really off-putting for me as time went on. I don't think the Ninth Doctor would have done all this whining, he would have just stepped up and done it.

Is it me or did this episode completely undercut the Doctor's survivor's guilt from the Time War.

Good riddance to RTD.

Doesn't undercut it at all in my book. Just explains what exactly happened and why.

Just because the reason you essentially killed off your entire species/planet was because they were going to do something horrendously evil doesn't mean you don't feel bad about. There's gonig to be all sorts of 'what if i did this' or that or whatever. You'll always think if you tried harder there'd have been an alternative. Just because there's a good rational explanation for what you did, doesn't mean you're going to be OK with it.

I still hope to see ole Wilf again. "Its the cactuses!", "That's cacti", "That's racist!"

I thought it was great and like him bidding farewell to all his friends in the end with none of them knowing what he was really doing. I also like RTD's explanation in the pre-show that he wanted to make a point to illustrate that regeneration is very much like dying and is a very big deal and no some simple healing power that lets things continue as they had been, just in a different body.

I also get the disappointment in the doctor that he 'dies' for one person, but he also told Wilf it was his honor to do so. If I had to sacrifice myself, i have to say, it'd be easier if it was to save 6.7 billion people as opposed to one.

I'd still like to know, though, why his mother was able to, and chose to speak to Wilf. Hopefully we'll get some more Wilf and some more answers in the future

I hope the appearance to Jack gives him the proverbial smack upside the head to return to Torchwood and that they actually get that show going again. I've not heard anything since the summer miniseries when they basically whacked the program and everyone back Jack and Gwen.

 

[womo68]

Doesn't undercut it at all in my book. Just explains what exactly happened and why.



I also get the disappointment in the doctor that he 'dies' for one person, but he also told Wilf it was his honor to do so. If I had to sacrifice myself, i have to say, it'd be easier if it was to save 6.7 billion people as opposed to one.

That's exactly what I thought.....In the end he did come out of it and realized that one life was just as great as millions. At least that's how I took it.

 

[JBReplicas]

It was quite Wrath Of Khan :lol Just watched it again and it was a pretty good episode, I do look forward to seeing if/how the feel of the show changes this year :thumbsup

 

[Egon Spengler]

As far as I've ever seen or heard, the Doctor regenerates, but IS THE SAME PERSON, just a different look and personalities with all the memories to go along with the new body too. The 9th Doctor didn't like that his old body was dying and he was regenerating , but maybe that was just 10's personality toward the end that made him act like he'd never exist in any form again.

Doctor regenerating = same guy, different body, different personality to go with it. Probably isn't the best experience in the world but it's still the same guy.


There are so many things in this special I didn't like and that seemed weak.

Lets start from the beginning.

The masters resurrection scene, that was pretty bad to be honest and felt forced but I guess they had some slight bit of backing to it with the ring being taken when his body was burnt. I mean, a ring and some lipstick print? I guess she might have had some left over time lord energy in her body or something from being around him for a year but this was still a big stretch.

I didn't mind so much the skeletor thing going on with the Master, it was sort of interesting but how come the other copies of him weren't doing it too? Probably budget stuff.

The Obama references were completely ridiculous. I doubt that people in the U.K seriously talk about Obama as if he's going to single handedly stop the world recession and fix the global economy. That was completely stupid.

The Naismiths were just a tacked in excuse to have that machine so the Master could change the entire population into himself for the lame "Master Race" joke. Yeah later on he decides to use it to change the time lords too but never gets around to it.

Then theres one of the biggest blunders and stupid things I've seen on tv in some time.

Nothing can get in and out of the time lock except the signal, correct? Then how the heck does a magical diamond tossed into a hologram of Earth accomplish that? That was so exceedingly bad.

The fall from the ship, through the glass and still surviving was stupid. It was out and out stupid and unbelievable considering Tom Bakers Doctor died from a fall as well, and from a lesser height. Sure people survive falls, but more often than not they don't and I doubt anyone would survive a fall through a glass and steel framed window onto a hard marble floor. I mean come on, Toms Doc died falling onto regular old grass and soil.

The whole thing with the time lords returning was a big waste of time when you get right down to it.

The two green characters were annoying too, no offense to the actors playing them, they played it like they were supposed to.

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy a lot of the RTD episodes and I'm glad he helped to bring back Doctor Who, but this special was full of holes stuffed with filler. I think all the actors did a great job with what they had to work with and if it wasn't for them and this fine skills this special would have turned out much worse than it already has. I'm not too thrilled with the choice of the new Doctor, but I wasn't too thrilled when David first popped up either, but I came to love his Doctor very much. I also have a TON of confidence that Moffat will do a much better job that RTD did, and thats not saying RTD didn't do good things or didn't right good episodes, he did, but Moffat has shown many times that he's a better writer.

I've grown tired of RTD's "Lets solve a universe full of problems in 2.5 seconds at the end of the episode" writing as well.

 

[cboath]

The point of the timelords returning was explaining what and why the doctor did what he did and ending the timeward. It would have been majorly anticlimatic if he just told Wilf (or someone else) it was because they were going to end the universe.

Resolving the univers in 2.5 seconds at the end of an episode was patented by the new Star Trek shows starting with TNG. People stilll love that to death though.

 

[blownhemi]

Where can I see this? This is the only mention I've seen of this.

I saw it here, but I'm not sure how I came to be there. :lol I haven't heard anything else about it and I didn't catch it yesterday, so I need to look deeper into it.

 

[cboath]

It wasn't on right after the episode last night. About 10-15 minutes into 'demons' was the special look at the next season of Dr Who. That was it. Well, at least til that point anyhow. I didn't watch past that.

 

[Tom Starkiller]

I thought it was great and like him bidding farewell to all his friends in the end with none of them knowing what he was really doing.

Sarah-Jane knew. Of all of them, she is the only one to have seen a full regeneration. You can tell on her face that she knew.

And Torchwood will be back, it's ready, just waiting for the BBC to greenlight it so the can get filming.

 

[Bothan Jedi]

I thought they had green-lit the new TW season.

 

[cboath]

Great news about TW! Although, seeing as it appears most of the next who season has been shot, seems like it'll be a long while til we see the next TW season, no?

 

[Nwerke]

His little rant at Wilf was that character coming to the fore for the last time before he conquered it, saving Wilf and accepting his need to change into something else.

I was reading this thread last night while watching part 2. I agree that the episode was often bad or silly, but I'm with Birdie here - the rant wasn't one of the things that seemed inappropriate. He loved his life, he loved that body and personality, he didn't want to let go and become (even if partially) a different person. It was just emphasis that he was't sacrificing himself lightly. To me at least he seemed more exasperated and scared than angry or arrogant, there.

You make not like the journey that RTD took the Doctor on, butting putting it down to bad writing is, I think, wrong. Davies' shortcomings as a writer lie in poor and repetitive plotting, bad gags and personal agenda. In terms of character, 10 went to places we've never seen the Doctor go before, and I think he was largeley successful in that aim.

Oh, so agreed on all points.

The skydive was absurd. The cactus people were fine, but it would have been nice if they could have lost their UK accents along with the 'shimmer'.
The Time Lords were wasted. And why is Rassilon back in charge? How did the Doctor's mother show up? How did the diamond show up? Why is Simm's Master so...lightweight? Shoulda made Dalton the main baddie for this, albeit that his smirking into the camera was way overdone. Why is Gallifrey twice the diameter of Earth? What is with its entire surface being ablaze? What the hell was the Obama stuff about?! Most of us do like him more than Americans do but it WAS embarrassing. It was almost at the point of parody.

We got four years of a Doctor who won't pick up a gun, but doesn't give second chances and will manipulate those around him into killing in his name and won't bat an eye at it unless it's done without his permission.

That was often maddening. But to be fair, at least Tennant's doctor did referance that - as a self-criticism too - late in the second part.

Overall, I didn't hate it despite the flaws, but I'm with everyone on the thank-god-it's-Moffat-now thing. Have been looking forward to that for a couple of years.

 

[Chronos]

I saw it here, but I'm not sure how I came to be there. :lol I haven't heard anything else about it and I didn't catch it yesterday, so I need to look deeper into it.

David Tennant Says Goodbye To The Set Of Doctor Who

 

[Primrodo]

As far as I've ever seen or heard, the Doctor regenerates, but IS THE SAME PERSON, just a different look and personalities with all the memories to go along with the new body too. The 9th Doctor didn't like that his old body was dying and he was regenerating , but maybe that was just 10's personality toward the end that made him act like he'd never exist in any form again.

The thing is , its not. It would be the same thing if my memories were transplanted into you. Technically, every time the Doctor regenerates he becomes a brand new person, just with all his previous memories. Do you recall Tennant's first speech in The Christmas Invasion?

The Doctor even references it to Wilf in Part 1, where he says it is LIKE dying, as the new man goes sauntering off.

The Tenth Doctor loved his life, and thought he could do more, WANTED to do more, and may have felt like he had not done enough.

And then Boom, new Doctor, not feeling that way and ready to start the next series.

 

[Egon Spengler]

It is the same person. I get that it might be "like" dying every time but there's regeneration and then there's actual death. I see what you're saying, and I know what the Doctor said about it being "LIKE" dying, but people say that plenty of things taste like chicken but it doesn't mean it's the same thing. I do agree that its LIKE dying in a sense, as his looks and personality do change drastically, but its the same guy, same soul, different look, different personality. Like if someone has amnesia, forgets who they are and has to build a new life again. Again that too is in a way like the first personality dying, but its still the same man or woman standing in front of you. It's still not actual death and its still the same guy, just a different look and personality.

On a bit of a different note, I'm really going to miss the 10th Doctor. I didn't want him to go either. David was amazing!

 

[manofsteel25]

I hate to say this but that Two Part Finale was AWFUL. Just a terribly written script. THIS is how RTD wants to end the tenth Doctor's era? Really? It's like slapdash fan fiction. Yeesh.

I liked seeing what Cribbins, Tennant and Dalton brought to the proceedings. I was sad to see david go. And... that's about it.

Many things bothered me:

The Doctor's Mother aka Unexplained woman who might also be Susan/Romana/White Guardian/Doctor!Donna. Since she was never named on screen, I'm going with the idea it was Susan. I prefer that to the other theories.

Throwing a Diamond into a hologram and having it land on earth. Oo. Magic.

Donna's defense mechanism???

Secret Books of Saxon??

Lucy's family contacts and anti-magic potions??

The Master with skeletal showing/flying/lightning super powers. Yuck.

The Doctor surviving a super fall through glass and a double bolt of lightning to the chest. But he's fiiiine. wtf?

The retcon of the Time Lords surviving but merely being locked away in the Time War. If they werne't all dead and they were about to turn ultimately bad then I have to agree with an earlier poster- it completely undercuts the 9th Doctor's battle scarred guilt ridden persona. It doesn't jive.

Retconning regeneration as a 'Death.' I never fully bought into this POV, so the attitude jarred me.

The Master's constant devouring of food. And the point was...?

Over-indulgent Goodbyes to all the companions and side characters. Unnecessary. We said goodbye to them in Journey's End. It didn't flow well at all.

Regeneration that destroys the TARDIS. Convenient since it *never* did that before and we've seen three Regenerations in the TARDIS since the New Series started and the TARDIS was always a-ok afterward. I know they wanted to re-build the set, but how about having a more plausible reason for destroying the old one?

There's so much more wrong with the episode. Sorry it was awful. It frustrates me more every time I think about it. Good riddance to RTD. I look forward to the Moffatt era when hopefully some sensible storytelling will return to Doctor Who.