DL 44 Mystery disc

Discussion in 'Star Wars Costumes and Props' started by Aison, May 29, 2015.

  1. Aison

    Aison Active Member

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    In my research and searching the rpf I have been looking for a dedicated thread to the mystery disc on the DL 44 Hero ANH. I could not find much, so I am starting a thread. If I have missed a thread than please forgive me. If this info is already know then sorry again.

    When I look at the Dl 44 mystery disc, I wonder and think, is it intentional? Why, was it a mistake? Well looking at the naked runner photo http://www.tested.com/art/makers/452186-how-obsessive-fans-built-better-han-solo-blaster/

    It is clear that where the mystery disc is, there was a hole drilled into the mauser to mount the scope on that side.

    This rig was changed over to be mounted on the other side for ANH. This leaves a hole.

    I also wonder if maybe under the rail that the scope bracket slides onto may have had a washer.

    If this area was bare metal, or sanded to remove the bur from the hole, and then was painted while assembled, then on disassembly we may see a circular patch of bare metal and a central hole. Explaining the disk.

    So that is one posibility, the other may be that there was just the hole, (which would be easy enough to fill and paint black.) And then they used that hole with a forstner type bit and milled a circle removing the painted surface, and leaving what looks like a bare metal disk.

    So that's my opinion, I welcome others to debate and inform all us noobs who are researching to build our DL 44's.
     
  2. Aison

    Aison Active Member

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    Just watched Adam Savages one day builds of the DL 44 again, @ 4:10 they show the Naked runner mauser, the mounts on the other side, the nut/bolts with what looks like a
    washer underneath near his hand side. The rail is not on yet, which kinda makes me think that when the gun was fitted with the scope mount it was assembled like this and given a quick touch up spray of black to paint the thumb screws and any bare areas. Take it off after, and there is the mystery disk. If the paint is thick enough it would also make the area looked as if was milled.
     
  3. H0llyw00d

    H0llyw00d Sr Member

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    Last edited: May 29, 2015
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  4. scottjua

    scottjua Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    The NR lower mount hole is too small and in the wrong place to be related.
     
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  5. Aison

    Aison Active Member

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    Thanks for the replies. I have also noticed that on this reference that if you zoom in on the hole, you can see a different reflection of the metal around the hole, it looks like it has
    been soldered, so the hole could have been bigger.
    blaster all sides.jpg mystery disc location 1.jpg nr mystery disk location possible.jpg

    I will read the other thread, it really makes sense this would create the mystery disk if blued or painted while these thumb screws and washers were on. Thanks for the feed back.
     
  6. Darth Lars

    Darth Lars Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I think that the dot in the middle of the "mystery disc" could just as well be only paint.

    I think they had glued an "Imperial disc" (pulley from a Michell record player) to the side of the blaster and painted it. Then the disc fell off.
    The metal is brighter around the dot - which I think is lack of glue residue.
     
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  7. Aison

    Aison Active Member

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    After reading the greeblies found thread, it makes more sense it is milled, and it makes more sense it is the NR lower reciever that was milled for the spacer washer to seat flat to the body since the area on the mauser is not flat but declines to the front, this would mean that the deeper part milled would be towards the trigger end of the disk. On looking at this photo enlarged, there is a deep cut and lip evident at this half of the circle which fits this idea. The spacer washer would have been a bit smaller than the milled area to I think?
    42218-star-wars_833648f8.jpg

    At different times it is also possible that the top part of the gun was changed to another gun and then swapped back for some reason. In the end its just photos and conjectures, I am only trying my best to try and work out something that makes some sense as I am building my DL 44.
     
  8. Aison

    Aison Active Member

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    I asked Roygilsing to take a look at the NR photo and the Dl 44 B/W original photo, he was kind enough to make an Giff overlay, thanks Roy, and from down under, as we would say, 'Thanks, you are a legend mate!:) My red line ball park marking was not that far off, it looks like NR gun was used completely, and that the mystery disk is not prop design, but something left over from from the mount machining done on the other side from the NR movie.
    @roygilsing Thanks buddy!
    DL-44-overlay-naked-runner.gif DL-44-overlay-naked-runner.jpg mystery disk milled.jpg

    Click on first image to watch overlay giff. The reflection on the lip also indicates it was machined/milled into the lower receiver.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2015
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  9. scottjua

    scottjua Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Nope... not the NR gun at all. Look at the upper receivers... two things:

    The forward facing scallops/chamfers in the Bull barrels... different depths/angles.

    Also the bull barrel is mounted farther forward on the NR gun.

    Now the lower...

    The disk vs. mount on the NR placement is different all together. Same AREA, but not the same spot.

    The NR lower is a PRE-war variant... the ANH Han is a wartime variant.

    Bapty obviously made more than one iteration of this bull barreled pistol.
     
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  10. thd9791

    thd9791 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Is this area the same size as one of the pulleys? That's news to me, and a really cool fact. Makes a LOT of sense.
     
  11. Aison

    Aison Active Member

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    Thanks scottjua I see now what you mean. That is really easy to see with the giff. Also in the NR photos there seems to be two different scopes used as well. Also on the promo photo using the hensoldt scope, is this the same gun in the vlc snapshot, or a different mauser. Was there more than one NR gun? I noticed on the promo photo there are scratches and wear marks on the scope mount bar, and if you mounted it on the other side it looks like it might match the scratch mark area on the ANH blaster pics. So, was the NR scope + mounts and screws used from the NR gun, and put onto a different mauser for ANH?

    What's you opinion on the mystery disc, by design, or that the spot was machined for a previous purpose?
     
  12. Aison

    Aison Active Member

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    Well it has been over a year, and this Mystery disc has been on my mind from time to time, I sit there and look at the photos trying to nut it out, I really want to know, I want to finish my DL 44 knowing what each part is.
    So recently I came across some other photos that I wished I had seen earlier, they are of the DL44 without grill and mystery disc, the scratches on the scope look to me like the ones on the original. (Can anyone confirm this is the DL44 pre grill and disc?) What is important about this was it made me think differently.

    ANH_realhero_left.jpg


    Before I was arguing that the Mystery disc was machined out and was remnant from the Naked Runner props, reason being, is that there is no way I could believe that prop guy thought to machine out a disc area for an aesthetic design, reason being, ANH was a movie that everyone was laughing at as it was being made, even the crew, the props were slapped together and you can see them falling apart during the movie, on Luke’s light saber, you can see misaligned T tracks, and a missing one. I even believe at some point the D ring probably broke off, and why in ESB the D ring clip and T tracks are fastened down much better.


    anh lightsaber missing grip.jpg


    So now I look at the evidence on all the blasters, the prop builder had a pattern, “a stick things on pattern.” The Hoth blaster has a disc on the other side, and I have seen another pic where it appears that there was something else over that too. It is easier and faster to stick things on, the only way I can believe this area was machined would be for a purpose, not an aesthetic design.
    So why does it have a lip that looks machined? That’s what was was doing my head in, I would often look at it and think, ‘It looks like a coin’ Maybe the stamping was ground off, too hard, it would be quicker to machine it.
    Now another thing I noticed is that from photos we can be misled by lighting, on the V2 lightsaber the majority saw the emitter as being recessed but it proved to be the opposite.
    I next looked at another promo photo of Han Solo, took it into photoshop, increased pixels and zoomed into the disc, and I can clearly see a darker shadow stripe that follows around the circumference of the disc, then a separate shade that is the black/colour of the lower receiver, it is a raised edge, if it were milled in this circular stripe around the disc should not be there, the colour of the lower receiver should look more uniform all the way to the edge of where it has been milled.

    myster disc han, enhanced.jpg myster disc han, enhanced edge.jpg


    Finally I looked at it and said, ‘It’s a Fu#$@& coin!’ I then looked up American coins and the size of their diameters, Quarter looks good at a diameter of ø 24.26mm, next I thought is there such a thing as a blank quarter, answer ‘Yes.’ Minting errors.

    Next I did a scaling in photoshop, I have the Reade models Tomtit dummy engine cylinders that were cut into three sections of six fins. By this I knew I could scale the diameter and then measure the parts. I also own a MR Luke ESB blaster that I have stripped for a re-build, I noticed that it was smaller than a denix, and somewhat more accurate to a real C96 Mauser, and the measurement from the bottom of the disc down to the bottom of the lower receiver minus the magazine plate which also vindicates the scaling.
    I sourced some quarter blanks circa 1965, (Nickel coating on the edge is not complete and copper also can be seen which can be seen on 1965 quarters.) had to buy them in bulk as a lot, so a big gamble. They arrived and I measured them, they = ø 23.76mm – 23.84mm. I was wondering why they were smaller, then realized that when they are stamped they would get a little bigger.

    View attachment mystery disc scaled.jpg
    View attachment mystery disc black white.jpg
    20170201_192644r.jpg

    The Scale shows the disc’s diameter just stops under or slightly into the 10th fin. The Vernier reads 23.76mm


    IMG_6374cor.jpg

    49.76mm, trom the top of the disc on the eyebrow line to the bottom of lower receiver minus magazine plate on my MR 2003 ESB Luke.


    Now I know there is another photo of the beauty prop blaster, that was molded from the original DL 44 which has a circular groove that looks like it is cut out of the eyebrow line and why people think it is also milled out. This blaster makes an appearance in the dagobah scene where Luke crash lands I think. This blaster inspired ROTJ Han. Again pistons are glued on along with other greeblies. It makes sense that Han's original DL 44 after ANH had the grill removed, this coin popped off, glue residue left behind, then it was used to make a resin mold. Han hardly uses a blaster in ESB and we know his and Luke's was shared too.


    42200-stunt_esb.jpg

    Here is another shot of the coin and how it would sit, there is a gap where glue would fill, and create the edge that also makes it look like the disc was milled.

    IMG_6381.JPG


    To be continued.......
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2017
  13. Aison

    Aison Active Member

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    Now for some screen shots

    Mystery disc low contrast.jpg mystery disc ovie high contrast.jpg

    Oh how it shines, notice no black dot, also no black dot in the center of one of the promo shots as well. Also it is clear that there is a darker black ring/shadow around the disc which suggests it is raised and we are seeing edge and drop shadow. (Second photo, contrast is adjusted a touch.)

    View attachment mystery disc black white scratches.jpg View attachment mystery disc black white2.jpg

    Click on the pictures, download them then look at them using the zoom in picture viewer. I have high lighted on one pic a the little hatching scratch marks. These little scratches, are also an evident pattern on the Nickel quarters I have, if you go back to the vernier pic with one of them you can see them in that pic. (A) the very white areas are how a black and white photo is recording the reflecting nickel.

    Well that's the sum of my work, look forward to replies. I have 30 circa 1965 blank quarters, I have 20 more in reserve. If people are interested please post if interested. If there are enough people I will upgrade my rpf membership to sell them. At this stage I am looking at selling them for a ballpark price 25-35 US depending on shipping, I also may grade them to quality and price.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2017
  14. Egon

    Egon Well-Known Member

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    huh. interesting. I wonder if they did use coin blanks, why and how they decided on those?
     
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  15. veektohr

    veektohr Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Interesting wrinkle here. I wish this blaster would turn up in somebody's private collection already. How awesome would a World-Con level moment be for the OG DL-44? If you're starting an interest list, the mods will probably ask you to do it in the project runs section ;)
     
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  16. Aison

    Aison Active Member

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    I think this blaster may have been turned into Han's ROTJ, they made specific scope mounts that spread out to where the holes for the ANH mount are for the other scope, so they re-used a blaster with pre-drilled tapped holes at ANH spacing. (I could be wrong on this one too, looked at other photos of ROTJ and upper receiver looks different, who knows what happened to the original.)



    I wanted to see if people were interested in buying them first before I upgraded to premium member which then allows me to post in project runs. Thanks
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2017
  17. Aison

    Aison Active Member

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    The other promo shot of Han that shows the edge of the disc

    7842a0b87955ccb93aa87f03f2626443.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2017
  18. DeLano80

    DeLano80 Well-Known Member

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    If the blaster was made/assembled in England, wouldn't an English coin make more sense?

    Maybe I should not discuss things I know nothing about.

    Now, back to my corner..... :popcorn
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2017
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  19. CT1138

    CT1138 Sr Member

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    Personally it always reminded me of those little, quarter sized metal disks I used to pick up from construction sites as a kid. Used to be able to fool the vending machines at school with them because they were ancient and didn't have the magnets making sure you didn't do that.
     
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  20. Irken Tech

    Irken Tech Active Member

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    Ah yeah, knock-out disks from electrical junctions boxes. I had to pick up every one of those I saw in the hopes it was actually a quarter.
     
  21. Aison

    Aison Active Member

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    Lol, the Greedo killer was a mgc that was put together in England because they had problems with bringing this one over because it was a live firearm. From what I can remember :)
     
  22. Lichtbringer

    Lichtbringer Sr Member

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    Wrong.
     
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  23. userd1402

    userd1402 Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    The other way round; the GK was assembled in hollywood to film an 'insert' shot of Han's holster which was then cut into the British cantina footage of the hero.
     
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  24. Aison

    Aison Active Member

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    Right you are, I remember something about problems with getting the live fire gun somewhere, and I remembered it wrong. Lol, Greedo killer was made because it was too much of a hassle to get it out of the UK to shoot the cantina scene interiors in California. Thanks for the correction :)
     
  25. Aison

    Aison Active Member

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    Back to my corner, sorry, right you are, yes a UK coin would make more sense, tried to look up blank mint error English coins (Farthing/Shilling that are 23-24mm but can't seem to find any pics of blanks ones. The quarter seems to fit really well, maybe the prop guys brought over a bag of greeblies?
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2017
  26. thd9791

    thd9791 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Yes!

    I used them on my build, to mask off paint, only because I had a Blast-Tech grill that had a 3/4" cut out for the mystery disc. I now know the disc is much bigger and these knock-out discs are too small, technically.
     
  27. scottjua

    scottjua Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Yes that pic is the hero before set dressing, as it came from Bapty.

    The mystery disc was caused after a greeblie came off at some point during pre production. LIKELY, during the costume fitting when Harrison was getting acquainted with the prop and drawing it from the holster for practice. There are photos of this instance, but I only have a few, and none of the ones I have seen show enough detail to determine if the greeblie was ever present during the roll of film shot.

    The lip you're seeing is glue residue. The entire lower was painted, minus the grips along with the mount. So what you're seeing is what looks to be where the glue discolored the steel underneath likely stripping the bluing... UNLESS... they sanding it down before paint for some reason. There's no way to know for sure, except for the fact that whatever cause the disc, had a hole in the center to allow the paint to make the dot.

    anh_hero55.jpg anh_underbarrel.jpg
     
  28. Inquisitor Peregrinus

    Inquisitor Peregrinus Master Member

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    And it wasn't the type of Michell pulley used for the Imperial officer cap/belt greeblies. 1) Those are right about an inch in diameter -- so bigger than the mystery disc, and 2) that version of Michell pulley has a notch that is not present in the paint artifacts on the ANH Hero. Similarly, it isn't one of the bases for the stylus brush or platter brush mounts, as those are even larger. There are many other washers and spacers and such on this style of turntable, though, that could be candidates:

    [​IMG]

    This thread over on The Dented Helmet has about the most complete photographic rundown of one of these turntables that I've ever run across, for one's consideration...

    --Jonah
     
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  29. Aison

    Aison Active Member

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    Yeah that lip looks like black paint reflecting. Where is that other picture from? Wish I saw that first. But interesting thing though, the dot, in the movie screen caps I grabbed when they get out of the smuggling compartments is not visible, and it is reflecting a lot, then in the other promo shot where he is full standing where I tried to highlight an edge there is no dot. Where the grill is glued together really looks like it has been painted. The shine that comes of it in the movie is like mirror polished steel. If they epoxied that greeblie on and it was on polished steel that would stop the steel from losing it shine. Well, that was my other thought, saw the way you did your Mystery disc on your live fire and that looked the closest yet. Thanks for posting.
     
  30. Aison

    Aison Active Member

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    Thanks, checked out that thread, some nice pics, was that a v2 cone knob I also saw.:)
     
  31. Inquisitor Peregrinus

    Inquisitor Peregrinus Master Member

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    Isn't it fun spotting the wild greeble in its natural environment? :)--Jonah
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2017
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  32. Aison

    Aison Active Member

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    Yes Sir! Looking at those screen caps from where he gets out of the smuggling compartments I reckon that must be the greeblie, it is very shinny, too shiny to be what we see in the promo shots, but photos and lighting are very very frightening, and misleading, and what Scott says makes sense. Some shots the lower receiver looks like it is blued, in others it looks like it is painted, I have seen people machining out the disc recently, all these things make for lots of confusion. My very first thought when I first saw it was that something was glued on, then painted, then fell off. At the least I hope this thread is useful to any new DL44 fans who are looking to do their Mystery Disc.
     
  33. scottjua

    scottjua Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Whatever WAS there, isn't anymore once they start filming.
     
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  34. Inquisitor Peregrinus

    Inquisitor Peregrinus Master Member

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    I'm curious how much of a difference the lighting makes. Set lighting tends to be a lot brighter and less diffused than photoshoot lighting... That is, if it's an empty spot where something used to be in the publicity photos and smuggling compartment scene, would the glare of a serendipitously-placed set light glare off the stripped metal of that circle enough to obscure the center spot and glue discoloration?

    --Jonah
     
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  35. Aison

    Aison Active Member

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    I would not be surprised, it probably could. When I was making my grill for the front I noticed that when I cut the sections of the reade model parts, you are left over with the top bit that tapers and that still has the plastic base inside, the inside diameter is 23mm, I put that part where the mystery disc should go and it looked cool, you could even screw it on, this would have caused problems drawing from a holster and easily break off.
     
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  36. Robiwon

    Robiwon Master Member Gone but not forgotten.

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    Machined disk or added disk? There's a reason I'm asking.
     

    Attached Files:

  37. scottjua

    scottjua Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    neither... for ANH... TFA isn't relevant since that greeblie is known to be there.
     
  38. Robiwon

    Robiwon Master Member Gone but not forgotten.

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    The reason I'm asking is does the disk in the picture look machined into the surface or does it look like an added piece. I'm no expert but Ive read this thread and the ANH DL-44 thread. The right side of this disk looks machined, as you can see "wall" created from the maching process. Ive seen similiar pictures in this thread that point out this feature on the real prop as evidence of the real disk being machined into the body. But I may have an explenation.
     
  39. thd9791

    thd9791 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    \That was a TFA picture you posted

    The machined disc idea was pretty far back - and we have pretty good evidence that wall is from paint and glue buildup. We don't know for certain, so I'd love the explanation you can provide!
     
  40. Robiwon

    Robiwon Master Member Gone but not forgotten.

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    Yes the gun itself is my AW DL-44 that I have been modding. The disk in my picture was made from aluminum foil. When I cut it out it was on a hard rubber desk matt. With the pressure of the knife cutting thru the foil it left a small upturned lip all around the disk. When I glued the disk to the gun, that near microscopic lip caught the light and gave the false impression that it was recessed, that you were seeing a wall and not an upturned lip on the disk.

    Now, I'm not suggesting they used aluminum foil on the ANH prop, but what if they cut a disk out of very thin aluminum that left a small upturned lip around it? This lip could trick the eye into thinking its a recessed wall and not an upturned lip.

    Compare the right side of the disk in my picture to pictures of the ANH disk. It's a very similiar effect.
     
  41. H0llyw00d

    H0llyw00d Sr Member

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    Well, they don't call it the obvious disk. As the prop didn't survive post-production you just have to research, decide what you believe and pick a street. I'm in the painted lower, lost greebly camp.
     
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  42. H0llyw00d

    H0llyw00d Sr Member

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    FYI. My girl 2 years into a weather-through-battle gameplan... on a Denix, DEC build. That's the original Denix blue showing through there... :/

    IMG_20170522_240259137[1].jpg
     
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