AA case begins
- Thread starter Jumpin Jax
- Start date
DrStranglove
Sr Member
exactly!
Now then, where are all the people who were defending AAs right to make his stuff? I seem to recall many that thought and said he would win the lawsuit.
Now then, where are all the people who were defending AAs right to make his stuff? I seem to recall many that thought and said he would win the lawsuit.
Kt Templar
Well-Known Member
Hand up here! The court has upheld his right to make his stuff, the judge specifically ruled that the copyright had expired in the UK.
Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
THIS Judge has. Appeals are a coming because this will set a precedent for the movie/TV industry. You can bet that those prop/sculpture copyrights, especially when they are so outwardly important to the movie/TV show, will be upheld for longer than 15 years.
Jedi-72
Sr Member
The fact that this whole debate has gone on as long as it has amazes me. The fact that everyone has a different opinion, even judges, demonstrates that there is no right or wrong answer to the whole thing. Some say its okay, some say it isn't. And on it goes, and it has nothing to do with "right" or "wrong", it has to do with business, with money. The ironic thing for me is that LFL has likley spent far more in legal fees over this whole thing than they've ever made in licensing fees for Stormtrooper helmets from MR or Efx.
Has AA acted unethically? Sure. But so has EVERY other company that I buy things from all day long, every day, and in far worse ways. Why do ethics only ever seem to apply to the people who can't afford a multi-million dollar legal team that can justify, defend, and protect their right to behave unethically? I'm not saying the things he said and did were right. I just don't understand why people come down on him so hard over something so damn silly.
Has AA acted unethically? Sure. But so has EVERY other company that I buy things from all day long, every day, and in far worse ways. Why do ethics only ever seem to apply to the people who can't afford a multi-million dollar legal team that can justify, defend, and protect their right to behave unethically? I'm not saying the things he said and did were right. I just don't understand why people come down on him so hard over something so damn silly.
Lord Abaddon
Sr Member
Boy howdy that was well said!
I'm right here and as I've said all along the truth would come out in the trial.
* We found out he lied about being the original sculpture (and joyfully Liz Moore now gets the credit she so justly deserves).
* We found out he did work on the helmets and was more than just a "puller."
* We found out that LFL did NOT have a contract with him for production.
* We found out that just because LFL won uber penalties in the USA that "steamroller" of an American company was not looked on well in the UK.
* We found out how UK law works and boy is it different than USA law.
I for one also kept saying the truth was somewhere in the middle and that's pretty much what it seems to be, and which also makes it all the more confusing.
I'm sorry that he wasn't the original sculpture in that the helmets don't have that lineage to the originals. However that does not detract from the fact (now proven) he still made the helmets in final production and so they do still have that lineage. Again, in the middle.
So I was right about some things, wrong about others, as were many of us on both sides of this way-over-the-top-time-consuming-idiotic debate.
Did I miss something? I thought the "original molds" issue was unresolved. They established that he did not do the original sculpt. The bucks used for the original helmets would not have been that actual sculpt, though, but a casting thereof.
Lord Abaddon
Sr Member
Oh, maybe I missed something as well. Did they bring the Liz Moore sculpt to AA to make the bucks off of and then mold the helmets? So he did make and does have the original molds?
Man it seems like one question leads to another! :confused
exoray
Master Member
Nope AA sculpted the buck with an angle grinder, just asked him...
rolleyes:rolleyes
exoray
Master Member
Be careful on the surface this this might appear to be the granting him the right to make the stuff, but I suspect it to be further rooted... More hearings in October and a clearer picture should start to be formed...
Here is what I believe to be part of the deeper root...
If my interpretation of this cause is correct then the Secretary of State has the power to single handedly rule that the trooper design is indeed "artistic" and not an industrial design, extending the copyright...
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Reactor drone
Well-Known Member
The Judge didn't seem to think Liz Moore had done the helmet sculpt,he thinks Pemberton probably did that .
"Mr Nick Pemberton
Mr Pemberton is now retired, but for the whole of his working life he was a freelance scenic artist and prop maker. It was to him that Lucas turned when they wanted the assistance which underlies this case, and it was he who was engaged, at least initially. He created a clay model of the Stormtrooper head which ultimately went to Mr Ainsworth, and Mr Ainsworth was his subcontractor in the early phases of the relationships. He was a good, careful and reliable witness. He was never afraid to say he could not remember, and did not seek to fill in the gaps with uncalled-for reconstruction or speculation."
"Mr John Richardson
He was called to give evidence as to the genesis of a particular clay model of the Stormtrooper helmet. His witness statement deposed to its having been made by a Liz Moore. From an undisputed photograph it appeared that the model was made in red, and not grey, clay. In cross-examination he said that she worked only in grey clay. As a result of his evidence the claimants abandoned their contention that she had made the model. As a result I need say no more about his evidence."
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exoray
Master Member
It's my opinion the Judge made an error in his conclusion on this, as it had no bearing on the case he didn't explore it fully... If you have every looked at old color photographs many of them develop an orange/yellow/red cast over time... From the pictures of the sculpt that have been made public the apparent shade of "red" seen in the clay could in fact be a product of the film deteriorating, the sculpt very well could have been a grayish tint... Or simply she made an exception and did this one sculpt in a different clay for some reason...
Again because it made no difference in the Judge's decision he didn't pursue all angles or dig deeper, he made a black and white call on very limited testimony...
If you load the public image of the trooper sculpt in photoshop, a very slight removal of red or magenta tones, makes the sculpt VERY gray and IMO doesn't distort the human complexion of Lucas or the wood the sculpt is mounted to so it's a real possibility that the picture just had a red cast to it due to age...
If you go to this page and look at the two bottom color pictures you can see the "orange/red" cast in the original that is typical in older color photographs, I believe that the trooper sculpt picture suffered the same effect...
http://www.dodgerdigital.com/restore.htm
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Lord Abaddon
Sr Member
Hmm. I think I see.
Could someone give a synopsis then of the creation of the helmet, from initial rendering by Ralph McQuarrie through final assembly by AA (?), including the people who worked on the various stages as the court is stating? Might make it easier to follow this thing and understand it.
Could someone give a synopsis then of the creation of the helmet, from initial rendering by Ralph McQuarrie through final assembly by AA (?), including the people who worked on the various stages as the court is stating? Might make it easier to follow this thing and understand it.
Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
We did?
I have to disagree here. Having looked at the image again, I think that it's clear that the helmet wasn't sculpted in gray clay. There is too much evidence elsewhere in the image to suggest that there isn't enough magenta shift to support the notion that the clay is gray.
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Lord Abaddon
Sr Member
It seems so because the case seems to say that he didn't just pull them but assembled, painted, etc. as well as created the original molds.
However I might be wrong as there is a lot in that resolution which is why I'm asking if someone could summarize the whole thing point-by-point in the helmet production so we know who did what when.
Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
I did not read anything in there about him creating the molds. He is a talentless hack, let's not go giving him undue credit.
defstartrooper
Sr Member
Cripes !! just got my arse back online looks like i got some reading to do :lol
Brian Muir
Well-Known Member
I agree that the judge made an error with the conclusion that Pemberton sculpted the helmet.
It was my statement to the Lucas lawyer that I had seen the helmet outside my workshop in the art dept at Elstree that made them look for evidence. They then found the photo of the clay helmet from Gary Kurtz's collection. The clay head I saw was grey.
In Pemberton's statement he says he did the helmet in red clay as he prefers it - red clay is terracotta which is a deep red. He also stated that his first attempt included a Morris Minor ashtray grill - he says he liked it because it gave it a sort of touch of Britishness :wacko I believe his only contribution was the blue helmet in the photo. He seemed a likeable guy but changed his mind almost as much as Ainsworth.
I talked to John Richardson when working on Harry Potter and he stated that he set up an area for Liz to work in at his workshop in Holland while on location on A Bridge too Far. He stated that he witnessed Liz sculpting the helmet.
I agree that the colour of the clay in the photo has deteriorated after all these years.
In my mind I have no doubt that Liz sculpted the Stormtrooper helmet.
Brian Muir
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