anamorphicWayne
Sr Member
Very interesting. It looks like one of those 'crude drawings' showed up in the Making of Empire book.
SS AT-AT armature
- Thread starter MonsieurTox
- Start date
Very interesting. It looks like one of those 'crude drawings' showed up in the Making of Empire book.
anamorphicWayne
Sr Member
I'm sure someone has figured this out, but I thought I throw this out there.
I've been really looking at the construction of the AT-AT, specifically the top leg joints, and I figured that the legs don't pivot in the center of that joint. The pivot is shifted forward or back as with the rear legs. ILM's photo displaying the armature parts, shows the upper leg parts to have an off centered hole at the top joint.
I've also noticed a 'pin' that extends outwards from the hip plate, thru a guide slot of the top leg joint. I'm guessing this pin assists in key-framing and/or providing a means to rotate the fly wheel. There's a lever that is next to the upper leg that appears to slide along that angled slot on the hip plate. Could that be a last minute thought for a 'tension lock' for the armature?
And one last thing, the round indent, below the top joint, appears to have a spindle and some rubber bands sticking out. A possible pulley system for the knee joint fly wheel?
I've been really looking at the construction of the AT-AT, specifically the top leg joints, and I figured that the legs don't pivot in the center of that joint. The pivot is shifted forward or back as with the rear legs. ILM's photo displaying the armature parts, shows the upper leg parts to have an off centered hole at the top joint.
I've also noticed a 'pin' that extends outwards from the hip plate, thru a guide slot of the top leg joint. I'm guessing this pin assists in key-framing and/or providing a means to rotate the fly wheel. There's a lever that is next to the upper leg that appears to slide along that angled slot on the hip plate. Could that be a last minute thought for a 'tension lock' for the armature?
And one last thing, the round indent, below the top joint, appears to have a spindle and some rubber bands sticking out. A possible pulley system for the knee joint fly wheel?
Attachments
dragnink
Well-Known Member
Hey Wayne, I can see you've put a lot of thought into this, and for the most part you're on the money. I've been studying this for a while too, we'll hopefully have a working prototype leg in Julien's build thread soon incorporating all the known concepts. There are some issues with the original design, you can see that sometimes the pistons didn't move at all, got stuck, or in one case one of the round rods the square ones telescope over got sucked up inside the cavity. I've figured out a way to get quite a bit more vertical travel in the pistons than my first drawings so I'm hoping it'll achieve something maybe even a bit more consistent than ILM's design.
The lever/armature lock is put there for looks mostly, just to give some added movement/interest to the legs. But yes the mount for the upper thigh is off center, the "pin" you speak of is a slotted machine screw.
Looking over your pics, I wish I'd had the shot of the single leg standing up (next to the big foot) earlier on. I did stumble on a copy eventually, but it's much blurrier than yours. Do you remember where you sourced this pic from? Maybe I could track down an even higher res version. The armature is really a minor miracle of engineering and serves as a testament to the genius of Jon Berg.
The lever/armature lock is put there for looks mostly, just to give some added movement/interest to the legs. But yes the mount for the upper thigh is off center, the "pin" you speak of is a slotted machine screw.
Looking over your pics, I wish I'd had the shot of the single leg standing up (next to the big foot) earlier on. I did stumble on a copy eventually, but it's much blurrier than yours. Do you remember where you sourced this pic from? Maybe I could track down an even higher res version. The armature is really a minor miracle of engineering and serves as a testament to the genius of Jon Berg.
Last edited:
anamorphicWayne
Sr Member
Cool dragnink. Yeah, the AT-AT is one of the vehicles from the Star Wars trilogy that fascinated me when I was a lad.
I read there were some minor issues, regarding the pistons, they had to deal with during animation. So, maybe those particular shots in the film were a result from them.
I came across the 'Studio Scale
P) AT-AT' thread by Julien and it sounds very promising. I also found a YouTube video of his prototype leg. Very impressive. I'm kinda fuzzy about how RPF lay out its threads though. But it seems to me I'm missing some of the postings or it's restricted. For example, users would be chating about a pic that I can't see.Regarding that pic of the single leg. I can't recall where I found it, but it could of been during a general image search. But I did upscale the image a bit to match the rest of the ones I posted. But I'll try to find it.
I also noticed another curved slot below the guide slot of the top leg. I wonder what's that for? You can see the same slot on the displayed parts photo. Here's another pic.
Attachments
anamorphicWayne
Sr Member
So, you (dragnink) and Julien are collaborating? Cool. Even though I've been dibbling-dabbling with models/props over the years, I'm pretty much a newby to the 'prop/model building world', but extremely enthusiastic. As for the armature you're designing. Are you keeping it faithful to the original or will you drift a bit for functionality reasons?
dragnink
Well-Known Member
Hi Wayne,
Once the bug bites it's hard to turn away
And yes, we are working with a machinist (Felix/Flixen) to get a proto armature made and after that, if it's needed I'll make some small changes to my drawings for the final armatures that are cnc'd. Julien's done the bulk of the scratchbuilding, but some of our own will need to be done too, for areas like the guns on the cheeks and maybe adding our own kit parts here and there.
There will probably be a little interpretation in the gear area in the thigh unless better pictures come along, but we're aiming to have it as close to the originals as possible with the same functionality, so for all intents and purposes they'll be stop-motion ready. I have some spare space already set aside for shooting some sequences (purely for "fun").. I wouldn't be surprised if the final models are 30 pounds, maybe more and will probably be a chore to animate. The proto leg should help us dial in tolerances, too tight or too loose wouldn't be ideal (I could run with that, but I won't go there.. lol)
Once the bug bites it's hard to turn away
And yes, we are working with a machinist (Felix/Flixen) to get a proto armature made and after that, if it's needed I'll make some small changes to my drawings for the final armatures that are cnc'd. Julien's done the bulk of the scratchbuilding, but some of our own will need to be done too, for areas like the guns on the cheeks and maybe adding our own kit parts here and there.
There will probably be a little interpretation in the gear area in the thigh unless better pictures come along, but we're aiming to have it as close to the originals as possible with the same functionality, so for all intents and purposes they'll be stop-motion ready. I have some spare space already set aside for shooting some sequences (purely for "fun").. I wouldn't be surprised if the final models are 30 pounds, maybe more and will probably be a chore to animate. The proto leg should help us dial in tolerances, too tight or too loose wouldn't be ideal (I could run with that, but I won't go there.. lol)
anamorphicWayne
Sr Member
"Once the bug bits it's hard to turn away." Oh yeah. I hear ya skipper.
Obtaining photos of the inner mechanism is the real challenge. That's why I was inquiring about the ILM plans, etc. There's a lot of pieces to the puzzle, but it's up to the hobbyists to make them fit.
At 30+ pounds, it'll definitely be an impressive model. I'm looking forward to see how this project will turn out. Once done, do you guys have any plans of what to do with all your work?
Obtaining photos of the inner mechanism is the real challenge. That's why I was inquiring about the ILM plans, etc. There's a lot of pieces to the puzzle, but it's up to the hobbyists to make them fit.
At 30+ pounds, it'll definitely be an impressive model. I'm looking forward to see how this project will turn out. Once done, do you guys have any plans of what to do with all your work?
joberg
Legendary Member
You guys are doing a tremendous detective work:thumbsup Really impressive for sure. This model is very complicated to say the least and it would be a beautiful day indeed if one day, we would see it done right (as in the movie) once and for all. Eager to see it all come together:cool
anamorphicWayne
Sr Member
I'm all geared up for it. BTW joberg, you wouldn't happen to be Jon Berg (joberg) would you? No? Just checking. lol
VFX Freak
Sr Member
This whole project is amazing and inspiring. It was primarily the stop motion sequences in Star Wars and TESB that made me want to be an animator. The Walker attack has always been my favorite and a two-dimensional paper cut-out version of it is one of the first things I ever animated. Seeing this happen makes me smile. Keep up the great work everyone.
anamorphicWayne
Sr Member
I guess my 'spark of interest' for the AT-AT was the cover of issue 167 of Famous Monsters of Filmland. And of course, the battle sequence was a bonus. I even tried to convert my old MPC AT-AT into a stop-motion model.
dragnink
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the support guys. It's definitely not a model for the faint of heart!
I still have a small AT-AT my brother built back when he was 10, shortly after Empire came out. Being the youngest sibling by a considerable margin, all the Star Wars toys they got for birthdays and Christmas filtered their way down to me after they were done playing with them. That was, until they blew up most the ones I'd been handed down with m-80's and firecrackers. Then they started teasing our dog with the action figures and those all lost their heads and arms.
Sometimes I wonder if the traumatic loss of all my Star Wars gear as a kid is what eventually got me interested in replicas of the original filming models..
I still have a small AT-AT my brother built back when he was 10, shortly after Empire came out. Being the youngest sibling by a considerable margin, all the Star Wars toys they got for birthdays and Christmas filtered their way down to me after they were done playing with them. That was, until they blew up most the ones I'd been handed down with m-80's and firecrackers. Then they started teasing our dog with the action figures and those all lost their heads and arms.
Sometimes I wonder if the traumatic loss of all my Star Wars gear as a kid is what eventually got me interested in replicas of the original filming models..
anamorphicWayne
Sr Member
I know whatcha mean. I could of kicked myself hundred times over when I found out how much my plastic cape Jawa was valued years later. I hung onto my models until the very end. They were in constant damage control. I would use kit parts, trees, tooth picks, etc just to keep looking good. It wasn't until a few years ago that I discovered something called 'studio scale'. Then I thought, 'Wow, this is more like it.'
anamorphicWayne
Sr Member
Thanks joberg. That's good to know. But I do wonder if there are any 'undercover industry' folks in the mist of these forums. Hmmm, just a thought.
anamorphicWayne
Sr Member
Over the years, I've been seeing photos of an AT-AT with a notch cut out behind the knees. I know it's from ILM, but does anyone know the story behind it?
dragnink
Well-Known Member
Not sure, maybe they had a concern the portion of the legs below the knee wouldn't rotate as much as they needed for the sequence where it falls. What's even stranger is the original 4 foot version has cutouts below and above the knee, but those areas have removable inserts that can be keyed back in to restore the non-cut appearance.
anamorphicWayne
Sr Member
"....concern the portion of the legs below the knee wouldn't rotate as much as they needed for the sequence where it falls."
That's what I thought too. Maybe they were using the smaller model as a mockup for the larger one. Yeah, I see it too. Looking back at the photos of the large model, especially the armature, you can see the slots. And on the film ready model, the slots are filled in. Very interesting.
That's what I thought too. Maybe they were using the smaller model as a mockup for the larger one. Yeah, I see it too. Looking back at the photos of the large model, especially the armature, you can see the slots. And on the film ready model, the slots are filled in. Very interesting.
Last edited:
anamorphicWayne
Sr Member
I've been watching this particular shot from ESB, frame by frame, and found something interesting. I assume the fly wheels on the knees are controlled by the pistons, in some form, but here's another angle. What if the horse-shoes on the feet are controlling them?
In these four frames of the sequence, I've noticed as the body moves forward, putting its weight on the front/left leg, the leg rotates along the horse-shoe and somehow (the built-in mechanism) turns the fly wheel on the knee and perhaps even the pistons. Also, the faster the leg rotates along the horse shoe, the faster the fly wheel turns.
Is that too much of a stretch?
In these four frames of the sequence, I've noticed as the body moves forward, putting its weight on the front/left leg, the leg rotates along the horse-shoe and somehow (the built-in mechanism) turns the fly wheel on the knee and perhaps even the pistons. Also, the faster the leg rotates along the horse shoe, the faster the fly wheel turns.
Is that too much of a stretch?
Attachments
dragnink
Well-Known Member
Hi Wayne, I wish this is what was happening because it would be a lot cooler.
I came to my own conclusion that the swivel plates on the knee were rotated by hand. Some of them swing so wildly and fast (and not in sync) with a slower velocity on the reverse swing, that I figured there had to be a human element in that. Dissecting the armature has shown there's really not much happening behind these knee parts. There is something interesting though below the knee that's not often seen...
A milled hole, with electrical wires nestled under a washer in the knee (which acts as a spacer) that terminate at the screw which holds the swivel plate (and part it sits on) to the other/inner side of the knee.
I think this is only cosmetic, and serves no other purpose other than to look like there's hydraulic hoses or something being fed to the knee or upper leg.
I came to my own conclusion that the swivel plates on the knee were rotated by hand. Some of them swing so wildly and fast (and not in sync) with a slower velocity on the reverse swing, that I figured there had to be a human element in that. Dissecting the armature has shown there's really not much happening behind these knee parts. There is something interesting though below the knee that's not often seen...
A milled hole, with electrical wires nestled under a washer in the knee (which acts as a spacer) that terminate at the screw which holds the swivel plate (and part it sits on) to the other/inner side of the knee.
I think this is only cosmetic, and serves no other purpose other than to look like there's hydraulic hoses or something being fed to the knee or upper leg.
Last edited:
