Game of Thrones
- Thread starter Husker75
- Start date
interesting excerpt from that article
"Gower was much more cryptic about a mind-blowing VFX challenge that fans will see in Season 6… probably. “Benioff and Weiss, when they write the outline each year, for last two years, we got to this one point and we read this one gag and thought 'Oh my God, how the hell are we going to do that? But this is going to be incredible!’ And then it got pulled and we didn’t do it in Season 4,” says Gower. “And then, lo and behold, in Season 5 there it was again. And it’s pulled again! But now, in Season 6, it looks like we’re going to do it. Fingers crossed they won’t chicken out.”
Stoneheart?
"Gower was much more cryptic about a mind-blowing VFX challenge that fans will see in Season 6… probably. “Benioff and Weiss, when they write the outline each year, for last two years, we got to this one point and we read this one gag and thought 'Oh my God, how the hell are we going to do that? But this is going to be incredible!’ And then it got pulled and we didn’t do it in Season 4,” says Gower. “And then, lo and behold, in Season 5 there it was again. And it’s pulled again! But now, in Season 6, it looks like we’re going to do it. Fingers crossed they won’t chicken out.”
Stoneheart?
Reelo
Sr Member
Well, I'd say Stoneheart would be just a simple matter of makeup artistry, not too fancy. But it could be related to the resurrection of a certain character (Stoneheart maybe, but possibly someone more important)
Solo4114
Master Member
Eeeeexactly.
People who say the Unsullied suck (A) forget that we haven't seen them in battle yet, and (B) totally misunderstand melee combat.
The Unsullied are trained for formation-based warfare like Greek phalanxes or Roman legions. Whatever their particular prowess may be with spear and shield, even as lone fighters, the spear and shield basically require formations using shield walls and such.
All of the strengths you'd expect of such a soldier are totally useless in individual combat, let alone taking on multiple enemies at once, and especially in confined quarters or in conditions where you cannot deploy a longarm like a spear in an effective manner. Instead, the types of skills the Unsullied likely have probably include things like:
- Moving in formation.
- Maintaining discipline in the heat of battle.
- Indomitable morale.
- Ability to march quickly and fight upon arrival.
The other thing I think this shows is something that anyone who lives in a major American city probably knows: a police force -- even one specifically trained for the job -- cannot effectively police an area without the cooperation of the citizenry. Insurgencies work when they are coordinated and when enough of the population supports them. There is no effective way to quickly control or eliminate an insurgency short of exterminating the entire population indiscriminately. Other than that, you have to engage in counter-insurgency tactics which requires developing an intelligence infrastructure, obtaining local cooperation, all of which takes a good amount of time.
People who say the Unsullied suck (A) forget that we haven't seen them in battle yet, and (B) totally misunderstand melee combat.
The Unsullied are trained for formation-based warfare like Greek phalanxes or Roman legions. Whatever their particular prowess may be with spear and shield, even as lone fighters, the spear and shield basically require formations using shield walls and such.
All of the strengths you'd expect of such a soldier are totally useless in individual combat, let alone taking on multiple enemies at once, and especially in confined quarters or in conditions where you cannot deploy a longarm like a spear in an effective manner. Instead, the types of skills the Unsullied likely have probably include things like:
- Moving in formation.
- Maintaining discipline in the heat of battle.
- Indomitable morale.
- Ability to march quickly and fight upon arrival.
The other thing I think this shows is something that anyone who lives in a major American city probably knows: a police force -- even one specifically trained for the job -- cannot effectively police an area without the cooperation of the citizenry. Insurgencies work when they are coordinated and when enough of the population supports them. There is no effective way to quickly control or eliminate an insurgency short of exterminating the entire population indiscriminately. Other than that, you have to engage in counter-insurgency tactics which requires developing an intelligence infrastructure, obtaining local cooperation, all of which takes a good amount of time.
madmikeee
Sr Member
This aspect could be played out in many ways. But my theory is that once the red witch saw that the battle was to be a complete slaughter she returned to castle black to sway Jon Snow to her side. Obviously she never had the chance BUT as we saw in season 3 I believe her counterpart had resurrected someone many times. If she has that power as I am sure we can assume she does then I foresee a reborn and SEVERELY PISSED OFF Jon Snow who is now free from his oath. I see reports that he cut his hair but that means NOTHING, he has a year to grow it partially back and whose to say that his appearance doesn't change a little after being brought back?
Then again, this is all conjecture and he is just plain dead.
Lord Boron
Sr Member
The problem with a lot of these theories is they seem to be looking for a happy ending, and GRRM as gone on the record in saying don't expect a happy ending. I figure in the first episode of next season we will either see them burn the body, or not. If not, then we'll know something is up.
Riceball
Master Member
I agree, to a point, when on patrol we see them get ambushed from around corners and from Harpies popping out from buildings, that I can buy, what I can't is the situations where they are in essentially a stand up fight. The first situation is the one that cost Ser Barristan his life and saw Grey Worm seriously wounded, that small room that they were in is ideal for the Unsullied, just back up past the openings and their shield wall is virtually impenetrable. With their shield wall reaching from one wall to the next there's no room for the Harpies to outflank the Unsullied, they can't attack from the flanks, much less the rear. The Harpies are then facing a multitude of longs spears that they have to get past in order to try to attack the Unsullied with their short swords and knives. If they manage to get past the spears they then had to get past the shields which could also be used offensively, or, if Ser Barristan were to pull back behind the shield wall he could attack anybody who got past the spears with his sword from between the shields.
The other scenario was in the arena, if all of the Unsullied had pulled back from the seats and went down into the arena they could have formed a square and protected Daenarys from there. While a square is designed to be used against cavalry, I can't see why it couldn't be used against infantry that's largely armed with short melee weapons; the same basic ideas apply, you're up against a mobile opponent who can attack you from any side but who lacks the reach you do and naturally shies away from long, sharp, pointy objects.
Solo4114
Master Member
I thought the problem there was that they were surrounded too quickly to just back out. I agree that they could've gone into formation and fought the enemy off, but I think they were taken from too many angles at once to form up effectively.
Most likely, though, the producers just wanted a cool-looking fight where some cannon-fodder get killed and then Ser Barristan kicks ass until he dies.
There were two problems in the Arena.
First, when the fighting breaks out, the Unsullied are caught totally off guard, and mostly isolated. They don't know the directions from which they're being attacked, and they're absolutely outnumbered. Thus, they're easier to pick off.
Second, by the time they got to the center of the Arena, I can't remember if there were enough of them standnig to form square. I seem to recall shouting just that at my TV, but then they ended up picked off too quickly and pretty soon, you were down to just a handful. Also, square formation wouldn't have helped against the javelin throwers, since the center of the square would still remain unprotected from missile attacks.
I agree that what we've seen on the show has not exactly demonstrated the Unsullied's combat prowess except in limited circumstances, but I think that's more about the apparently intended parallel between the show's fantasy setting and modern military expeditions to the Middle East.
DuneMuadDib
Sr Member
A lot of viewers aren't going to appreciate that the Unsullied have faced situations that may not be suited for their training; they were told the Unsullied were bad*** and instead they get trounced every time they're seen fighting. Being told one thing and shown another is going to lead to a disconnect in many viewers' minds. It's like the early days of TNG where to prove that this alien that just boarded was a threat it would throw Worf half-way across the bridge. After a while it stopped demonstrating that the alien was a real threat and instead suggested that Worf was just a huge wimp.
Solo4114
Master Member
Oh, no argument there.
But that's also partially down to Martin's own writing. Once Dany occupied Mereen, she basically faces no threat that can be surmounted by the Unsullied. It's only after she takes off on her dragon and the city is encircled that the Unsullied may end up playing a role in the defense of Mereen. Although why anyone would lead an army outside the walls of a fortified city is anyone's guess, unless they expect to be able to repel the enemy. But we have to wait for Book 6 for that stuff to be dealt with.
Riceball
Master Member
It would depend a lot on just how well situated for a siege you are and how large a force you're facing on the outside. If you're sitting pretty, then there's no need to leave your walls, just wait out your enemy until their provisions and resources run out. However, if the force isn't too large and you're not that well provided for a siege, then it might be worth it to leave your walls and attack the enemy directly, It would also work if you had the means to sneak small amounts of troops out at night and launch commando raids to pick off guards, and destroy supplies, sort of like what Ramsay did to Stannis. The downside to that is, if they're camped right outside your walls and notice that they're losing men and supplies while never seeing anybody leave through the gate(s), they're going to start looking for your secret entrances to sneak their men inside the walls.
0neiros
Master Member
The Unsullied...the only Pre-gunpowder army to never be taught use of a sword. Even Archers back in the day carried a blade if they were up front. Seriously, train these guys on combat with a Gladius style short sword, THEN they would be badass. Right now their "Specialization" is getting them killed.
Darth Lars
Master Member
I was surprised that they made the Walk of Shame as in the book ...
The major events were the same in the book, but the details differ:
In the books, there aren't as many wildlings that flee to Hardhome after the defeat at the wall. Instead, a large number of people are captured - so they are moved south of the wall "in chains", at least figuratively.
Jon sends an expedition to Hardhome but he never goes himself and we don't read about the events first-hand. Not many people come back and most of Stannis fleet is lost.
Instead Jon gets months to make use of the captured wildlings to populate other castles along the wall to build up the watch's strength.
Also, Sam and Gilly are already gone a long time when Jon is murdered.
Jon sends an expedition to Hardhome but he never goes himself and we don't read about the events first-hand. Not many people come back and most of Stannis fleet is lost.
Instead Jon gets months to make use of the captured wildlings to populate other castles along the wall to build up the watch's strength.
Also, Sam and Gilly are already gone a long time when Jon is murdered.
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Basically the show effed up the Unsullied. In the books, they are much more formidable. The Sons don't actually inflict many casualties on them after the first couple ambushes. After that its mainly the civilian population who are harassed. Also, the Unsullied are trained to fight with more than just spear and shield. I thought even the slave master in the show mentioned that, but maybe not.
Either way, I get why things are the way they are in the show. The Unsullied are still the ultimate badassess as far as I'm concerned.
Either way, I get why things are the way they are in the show. The Unsullied are still the ultimate badassess as far as I'm concerned.
Right. That's what I was going to say as far as the Roman soldiers. They had two Pilum (a javelin like spear) that they would throw when the enemy was advancing then they engaged with their gladius (sword). For the Unsullied to only rely on a spear makes little sense. It only works in set circumstances.
DuneMuadDib
Sr Member
Read the books so I know.
In the book he also opts to send support to Stannis and asks for volunteers from the Wildlings and the Watch and that's the final straw before he's stabbed by tearful brothers rather than angry ones. It tracks a lot better.
infymys
Sr Member
Open letter from George R.R. Martin. NSFW for language.
http://www.dorkly.com/post/63864/george-rr-martins-open-letter-about-the-deaths-in-game-of-thrones
http://www.dorkly.com/post/63864/george-rr-martins-open-letter-about-the-deaths-in-game-of-thrones
