Well if HBO gets its way of getting them to do ten season. You might just get another book or two out of it. Story lines would have to go a bit farther or add new ones. Hope he doesn't die before it though.
It won't matter how many seasons the show goes, at the current rate unless GRR Martin either releases book 6 very early next year (it's been confirmed that it won't come out this year) or give the writers what he has of book 6 so far then the show is going to start going off into brand new territory and start deviating from the books starting season 6. The only thing that will remain the same between the books and the show at point will be the eventual ending, and that's assuming that GRR Martin doesn't change his mine on how he's going to end the Song of Ice and Fire saga.
I think the biggest issue with Books 4 and 5 is that the slow parts and the extra characters aren't effectively integrated to the point where you can see why any of the matter. Examples:
Dick Crabb. What the hell was the point of him? He takes them on a long, fruitless journey, just to reach Crab Point and find out that Sansa was never there in the first ****ing place, yet we get tons of dialogue from him and background info and such. And then, bam, he's dead and none of it mattered.
With books 4 and 5, the level of detail and background information on myriad side characters just goes crazy, and while it creates a rich and vibrant world, none of it seems to have paid off in terms of any kind of meaningful development in this story.
Like, there's a sequence with Jaime visiting these two Lannister-supporting families that are squabbling over some aspect of the siege at Riverrun. And there's this whole backstory about how the families have been bickering for generations, because Aegon the Unworthy (who is, like, 6-7 kings and over 100 years in the past) dumped one mistress from one family in favor of a new mistress from the other family. Well whoopdee****. What's that got to do with THIS story? I appreciate that Martin has created this incredibly rich, incredibly vibrant, incredibly detailed backstory and history for his universe. But at a certain point, all the "universe-building" that he does behind the scenes seems to actually slow down his novels because it inspires him to take these long journeys with active characters just so that they can lightly brush up against the history of the world.
It's like Tolkein taking 500 words to describe a decrepit dwarven-carved statute that the Fellowship walks by, or something, just because he wrote a 30 page outline for a story he never published about the character depicted in the statue. "Look. That's Horick Thunderfist. Mightiest of the Dwarven Gem Singers. The Gem Singers were a religion in the Mountain Dwarf state that eventually left due to religious persecution, and became the Slightly Less Mountainous Dwarf state, until it was annexed by the Hill Dwarf state. Horick is rumored to have kicked a cave troll in the knee, paralyzing it just long enough to lop its head off when it attacked Rubyhold 400 years ago. Horick's great grandson commissioned the construction of this statue, after he returned to the Mountain Dwarf kingdom to claim his birthright in the Merchant Guild, which he claimed through his grandfather's maternal side, leading to the ultimate defacement of this statue due to allegations that the great grandson was, in fact, an illegitimate member of the Merchant Guild, due to a revision to the Guild's charter during the reign of Thrain VIII. The Merchant Guild never recovered from the stain on its reputation.
It probably was a pretty statue before they chipped his nose off and let it grow too mossy. Anyway, on to Mordor. Only 348 leagues (and many more statues) more to go!"
Yep, spot on with your observations on the novels plotlines , which have mostly become more than slightly bloated and have diluted the impact of telling the central storylines. I hate to admit it, but the TV series actually manages the pacing much better and the character arcs are much stronger and interesting ,so the overall balance is far ,far improved. I'm not concerned about the possible "drifting" to the novels, there can be little doubt that George has extensively briefed the writers on what will happen, and its more likely he will probably end up "following " them to a certain extent.
It won't matter how many seasons the show goes, at the current rate unless GRR Martin either releases book 6 very early next year (it's been confirmed that it won't come out this year) or give the writers what he has of book 6 so far then the show is going to start going off into brand new territory and start deviating from the books starting season 6. The only thing that will remain the same between the books and the show at point will be the eventual ending, and that's assuming that GRR Martin doesn't change his mine on how he's going to end the Song of Ice and Fire saga.
He's already shared his outline for the rest of the series within in case he passes away or something has stopped him from writing. They've established it is liikely they will deviate from the books
Dan, I'm in complete agreement, but for one thing: that chapter with Jaime gave us that awesome carrot & stick speech. That we probably won't see that bit happen in the show is more than a little disappointing to me...
It's exactly because of all that pointless meandering books 4 & 5 that I have a hard time seeing how GRR Martin is going to wrap everything up in just 2 books. As things stand now and at the rate events are moving in the books it's going to take nearly 2 books just to get all of the characters in place to finish things don't mention actually depicting the final events.
Yeah, I agree. I'm hoping he gets a lot more focused, but the end result will be that Books 4 and 5 may well end up looking like pointless excursions if he can't pay them off. Basically, if Books 4 and 5 are setup (and they sure seem like a LOT of setup), then Books 6 and 7 can be execution. Then again, that's what a lot of people thought Book 5 would be, and while it had a little, it also had a lot of setup.
I had such a hard time trying to figure out if any of those guys were important, and if they were, trying to remember who was who
Another major diversion from the book is supposedly
Jamie showing up in Dorne. Suppsedly he has been spotted in filming scenes there. Not sure if he is a replacement for Ser Aerys Oakheart, but if he is, it will be interesting to see what happens with Brienne's story and whether Jamie will wind up the same way Ser Oakheart did.
Martin has teased that the writers have killed off characters who have not been killed in the books (at least not yet anyway).
I'm definitely excited to see how they stream line the story compared to the meandering events of the book. Can't wait for April 12th!
Well if HBO gets its way of getting them to do ten season. You might just get another book or two out of it. Story lines would have to go a bit farther or add new ones. Hope he doesn't die before it tho.
The thing is, there's nothing to guarantee that HBO will show THIS story for all 10 seasons. They might show backstory for the realm, which is just as juicy and interesting, to be honest. The stuff about the Blackfyre rebellions and the "Dunk & Egg" stuff alone would be a terrific show.
Yep, spot on with your observations on the novels plotlines , which have mostly become more than slightly bloated and have diluted the impact of telling the central storylines. I hate to admit it, but the TV series actually manages the pacing much better and the character arcs are much stronger and interesting ,so the overall balance is far ,far improved. I'm not concerned about the possible "drifting" to the novels, there can be little doubt that George has extensively briefed the writers on what will happen, and its more likely he will probably end up "following " them to a certain extent.
He's already shared his outline for the rest of the series within in case he passes away or something has stopped him from writing. They've established it is liikely they will deviate from the books
We've been deviating really since Season 1. Several scenes in Season 1 weren't in the book. By Season 2, they'd already changed specific plot points like who gets killed when. And so on and so forth. So, saying "we're deviating from the books" doesn't really bother me, since they've already done a ton of that.
I find it very interesting how GoT and The Walking Dead have really changed storytelling when the written word is translated into television. They are both doing it the same way, and I love it. They take the meat of the story, and the characters, and tell slightly different tales. Some bits get dropped. Some get added. Some play out in different order. It makes it possible to enjoy both versions, at least for me, and not be concerned with being at different places in the stories.
I find it very interesting how GoT and The Walking Dead have really changed storytelling when the written word is translated into television. They are both doing it the same way, and I love it. They take the meat of the story, and the characters, and tell slightly different tales. Some bits get dropped. Some get added. Some play out in different order. It makes it possible to enjoy both versions, at least for me, and not be concerned with being at different places in the stories.
Interstingly, I find that, where Game of Thrones is more streamlined in the TV version, the opposite is true of The Walking Dead -- it's more streamlined in its comic book version, if you can believe that.
IIRC based on interviews with Kirkman, the Walking Dead has been trying to revert back to following the comics a little closer after some wild meandering of the last few seasons where as Game of Thrones has been moving away from adherence to the books.
Man those stones on Tywin's eyes were so creepy. Funny how they had Sansa pretty much ride right past Brienne. Looking forward to how Breinne's story goes. Hopefully much more interesting than Crab claw point
I wonder if they will incorporate the whole lord of bones "plot twist". There were some clues in the books that made you suspicious, but last night it really felt like the end for that character. It's not necessarily central to the story so I could see it getting axed
I was wondering about that as well. There was no foreshadowing that they're keeping to the book's version, but it could still happen.
I'm curious about the dragons. If forget if it gets mentioned in the books, but are Daenerys' bunch uncontrollable because they were "wild" dgragons, while the ones her ancestors rode were more domesticated, or did the Targaryans just have the experience and understanding to raise them to be more obedient?
I think it's more that she has been neglecting them by hiding them away and allowing them to become even more "wild". Drogon is the alpha of sorts and has she has not been doing much to try to keep him or the other two in check. Sure she was horrified at the killing of the kid, but like any animal, they are working on their base instincts. There are ways to tame them, but occasionally things happen (like tigers turning on their trainers, or elephants rampaging). Unfortunately she let them get out of control while being occupied with other things
The stuff with Drogon at the end of a Dance With Dragons seems to imply she is starting to get back on course with asserting her will over the dragons or at least connecting with Drogon enough to come to an understanding of how to manipulate him. Of course Victarion has the horn that supposedly can be used to control dragons so we'll have to wait to see what happens there
Yeah Dany could use the Westeros equivalent of Cesar Millan right about now. I thought Varys was great in the episode, I think he's one of the more underrated characters on the show and in the books. I don't know if we'll be able to handle all the sass of a Varys-Tyrion road trip.
Who the hell is feeding & changing the collars for the dragons? They gotta be eating a whole cow or more a day. Doesn't look like she is the one doing it. Better call up the Vikings from how to train your dragon to fix these big boys.
Great start once again! First nod at the VFX which seem to have been upgraded again, particularly the statue sequence and the dragons. I guess the Mother of D's may be fire proof but not snack proof !!!! And whilst I know the cast is huge despite the numbers of the fallen but do they have to die so regularly (away from the novel alternative ) because :
(a) It keeps the storylines from wandering?
(b) It raises the stakes for the survivors ?
(c) Its cheaper than extending the actors contracts over several more episodes only for them to die later anyway?
(d) The writers just play a game called "Who dies today" ( after drinking neat Vodka and because they hate actors)?
Missed a couple of the cast this episode but I guess we'll pick them up soon. I'm very curious how this will go now, given the existing material is being used up rapidly. The flashback threw me, but it was well done and certain helped explain the danger of making prophecies. The Tyrion and Varys partnership cheered me beyond measure.
Is the "Game of Thrones" actually about who sits on the Iron Throne or is it about the supernatural powers that vie for dominance of the world? Or even both?
Man those stones on Tywin's eyes were so creepy. Funny how they had Sansa pretty much ride right past Brienne. Looking forward to how Breinne's story goes. Hopefully much more interesting than Crab claw point
I wonder if they will incorporate the whole lord of bones "plot twist". There were some clues in the books that made you suspicious, but last night it really felt like the end for that character. It's not necessarily central to the story so I could see it getting axed
I think it's been STRONGLY implied in the episode that this plotline still happened, just with different people. I'll explain in a spoiler.
Notice how the camera kept focusing on Tormund? Like...a LOT on Tormund?
Yeah.
My theory is either:
1. Tormund and Mance swapped with one of Melisandre's glamours (but no glowing neck stone pendant thing to be like "LOOKEE HERE. SOMETHING IS DIFFERENT." It's one thing to write a line about it in the book. It's quite another to have Mance suddenly wearing a piece of random jewelry, ya know?
2. Mance is truly dead, and Tormund will play a much greater role as "leader" of the wildlings, or at least "point of contact" since the wildlings don't really have any leaders, per se.
Rattleshirt hasn't been a player in the Wildlings since, what, Season 2? Nobody remembers him at this point. Tormund, on the other hand, has been front and center for several seasons now, I think, and is easily recognizable. So, I think they're using him.
I'm curious about the dragons. If forget if it gets mentioned in the books, but are Daenerys' bunch uncontrollable because they were "wild" dgragons, while the ones her ancestors rode were more domesticated, or did the Targaryans just have the experience and understanding to raise them to be more obedient?
Great start once again! First nod at the VFX which seem to have been upgraded again, particularly the statue sequence and the dragons. I guess the Mother of D's may be fire proof but not snack proof !!!! And whilst I know the cast is huge despite the numbers of the fallen but do they have to die so regularly (away from the novel alternative ) because :
(a) It keeps the storylines from wandering?
(b) It raises the stakes for the survivors ?
(c) Its cheaper than extending the actors contracts over several more episodes only for them to die later anyway?
(d) The writers just play a game called "Who dies today" ( after drinking neat Vodka and because they hate actors)?
Character deaths on the shows generally help to do a few things. In some cases, they're deaths from the books. So, they move the plot along somehow. In other cases, they help trim the cast or keep the cast lean. This is also true of when they combine two characters into one, like Gendry the smith being combined with another of Robert's bastards who basically is never really dealt with outside of one minor subplot. I don't think they do it for budget issues -- the show has PLENTY of money, and it's THE show that's propping up HBO right now, not to mention allowing them to launch their standalone service. The timing of the standalone launch and the GOT premiere was not a coincidence.
In reference to the Mance thing, I think they're melding characters, but going further into an explanation kinda involves spoilers, so I won't unless you ask me to.
Missed a couple of the cast this episode but I guess we'll pick them up soon. I'm very curious how this will go now, given the existing material is being used up rapidly. The flashback threw me, but it was well done and certain helped explain the danger of making prophecies. The Tyrion and Varys partnership cheered me beyond measure.
Is the "Game of Thrones" actually about who sits on the Iron Throne or is it about the supernatural powers that vie for dominance of the world? Or even both?
They're already doing a number of deviations from the books in this episode. It looks like they're cutting out an entire plotline from, I think, the 4th book involving Littlefinger and Sansa (or is that in Book 5?), so I have zero idea where they're going with that, or whether they're skipping ahead.
Personally, I'm ECSTATIC that they're moving forward with certain storylines. "Dany in Iraq" in particular. I have grown to HATE the way this has been handled in the book, at least so far, if only because it seems to have zero idea where it's going. My fiance thinks the same of the Melisandre stuff and the supernatural business.
Ultimately, I think that will be far more relevant, if only because I think we'll see the limits of supernatural powers, but also the reality of fire magic and its role in the coming War for the Dawn against the White Walkers. Ultimately, I think the series is about both the battles for the Iron Throne, and the supernatural battles between the Others and the forces of humanity. The story has been far more focused on the political infighting and the wars, but ultimately, that stuff feeds in to the larger battle against the White Walkers because you NEED a united Westeros (and possibly Essos) to fend off the White Walkers. You need Dany's dragons, Azor Ahai, a united Westeros under one good, effective ruler, etc.
Of course, none of that can happen until DANY GETS THE HELL OUT OF IRAQ.
I think it's been STRONGLY implied in the episode that this plotline still happened, just with different people. I'll explain in a spoiler.
Notice how the camera kept focusing on Tormund? Like...a LOT on Tormund?
Yeah.
My theory is either:
1. Tormund and Mance swapped with one of Melisandre's glamours (but no glowing neck stone pendant thing to be like "LOOKEE HERE. SOMETHING IS DIFFERENT." It's one thing to write a line about it in the book. It's quite another to have Mance suddenly wearing a piece of random jewelry, ya know?
2. Mance is truly dead, and Tormund will play a much greater role as "leader" of the wildlings, or at least "point of contact" since the wildlings don't really have any leaders, per se.
Rattleshirt hasn't been a player in the Wildlings since, what, Season 2? Nobody remembers him at this point. Tormund, on the other hand, has been front and center for several seasons now, I think, and is easily recognizable. So, I think they're using him.
I had thought of that myself like you said, simply because of how long they focused on Tormund and I could swear the actor playing Mance picked up a few of Tormunds mannerisims in the way he moved his head, but then again it could be a red herring for book readers. The Mance plot could easily be gotten rid of and her penchant for glamours shown in other ways. We'll have to wait and see. At the very least, regardless of how it goes, we will see the lord of bones again since he has been recast with a different actor for later this season
I think it's been STRONGLY implied in the episode that this plotline still happened, just with different people. I'll explain in a spoiler.
Notice how the camera kept focusing on Tormund? Like...a LOT on Tormund?
Yeah.
My theory is either:
1. Tormund and Mance swapped with one of Melisandre's glamours (but no glowing neck stone pendant thing to be like "LOOKEE HERE. SOMETHING IS DIFFERENT." It's one thing to write a line about it in the book. It's quite another to have Mance suddenly wearing a piece of random jewelry, ya know?
2. Mance is truly dead, and Tormund will play a much greater role as "leader" of the wildlings, or at least "point of contact" since the wildlings don't really have any leaders, per se.
Rattleshirt hasn't been a player in the Wildlings since, what, Season 2? Nobody remembers him at this point. Tormund, on the other hand, has been front and center for several seasons now, I think, and is easily recognizable. So, I think they're using him.
I had thought of that myself like you said, simply because of how long they focused on Tormund and I could swear the actor playing Mance picked up a few of Tormunds mannerisims in the way he moved his head, but then again it could be a red herring for book readers. The Mance plot could easily be gotten rid of and her penchant for glamours shown in other ways. We'll have to wait and see. At the very least, regardless of how it goes, we will see the lord of bones again since he has been recast with a different actor for later this season
OK, so who here was waiting for Jaime to jump Cersei next to Dad's body, just so he can keep his streak of "Sex at totally inappropriate times and places" going?
They've all but broken up now, so I doubt that will happen any time soon
To Solo's point, that's one thing that bugs me about GoT, the name. The books are "A Song of Ice and Fire," which to me seems to suggest that the coming war against the White Walkers/Others is more important than who sits the Iron Throne. The title picked for the show seems to suggest the opposite. Ultimately I'm sure one will affect the other, but squabbling over an uncomfortable chair won't matter when Winter comes.
CutThumb, Dany's not immune to fire. The blood magic to birth the dragons that left her unburnt was a one-off. At least in the books she can be burned the same as anyone else, though she has a better tolerance for heat than most.
