Like perhaps The Lord of Light is abandoning her because she sacrificed an innocent child...
Game of Thrones
- Thread starter Husker75
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Like perhaps The Lord of Light is abandoning her because she sacrificed an innocent child...
Goodwolf
Sr Member
It's possible. They don't really make much of it in the show, but in the books she says that some of the things seen in the flames can be misunderstood so she could have misread his intentions. And there are passages in her POV chapters that say she is looking for an answer and the flames only show her "snow." I've got the audiobooks so I'm not sure if that should be capitalised or not.
DuneMuadDib
Sr Member
The other thing to consider is that Jon is really the only person who takes the White Walker threat seriously. Sam's off to the Citadel, Stannis is presumed dead, Melisandre has no followers left, Thorne would never trust a Wildling, and Dany and Tyrion are across the Narrow Sea. There is absolutely no one left to actually lead the fight against the White Walkers when they show up at the wall if Jon is indeed dead. So when that day comes either they'll have whip up a defense at the last minute with no prep which realistically would end badly, or someone who takes that White Walker threat seriously and is a leader will have to show up to get things rolling. Jon's the obvious candidate, since I don't see anyone else in Westros telling Daenerys about the White Walkers if she ever actually gets around to coming over to invade. So either Jon's going to come back/isn't dead to fulfill a much needed role in the story or this whole thing is going to end much worse for the people of Westros than we though.
Also, I think it's possible that Mel's feeling the cold not because the Lord of Light abandoned her, but because she lost faith. Her greatest supporter hangs herself and half of Stannis' men abandon him because of what they did to Shireen, maybe it gave her pause enough to make her question what she's read in the flames and that self doubt stripped her of her resistance to the cold.
Also, I think it's possible that Mel's feeling the cold not because the Lord of Light abandoned her, but because she lost faith. Her greatest supporter hangs herself and half of Stannis' men abandon him because of what they did to Shireen, maybe it gave her pause enough to make her question what she's read in the flames and that self doubt stripped her of her resistance to the cold.
firesprite
Master Member
There's a pretty strong implication in the books that Melisandre, much like Dany, has bought into her own hype so much that she has a hard time altering course when she ought to. She found "true believers" in Stannis and Selyse so it was easy for her to convince herself that "Of course, this is Azor Ahai", even if she has to do some serious bending of the way things actually are to make him fit the role (naming his sword Lightbringer and using tricks to make it flame up, for instance).
In the books, she summons Jon to her chamber at Castle Black and when he questions what she sees in the flames, she tells him that they're not answering her as they should and they just keep showing her snow. Melisandre, having hitched her horse to Stannis doesn't seem to get the clue that maybe her god is trying to tell her she's a moron and to cut her ties with Stannis.
As for Melisandre in the show... I think that she left because she realized that she miscalculated badly in forcing Stannis to let her burn Shireen. If she had stayed, I'm pretty certain Stannis probably would have killed her after her actions cost him half his army, and his calvary at that.
It's hard to say how closely the next season will cleave to the storylines of the books. They've deviated pretty broadly at this point.
In the books:
So, it's going to be interesting to see what happens next season.
In the books, she summons Jon to her chamber at Castle Black and when he questions what she sees in the flames, she tells him that they're not answering her as they should and they just keep showing her snow. Melisandre, having hitched her horse to Stannis doesn't seem to get the clue that maybe her god is trying to tell her she's a moron and to cut her ties with Stannis.
As for Melisandre in the show... I think that she left because she realized that she miscalculated badly in forcing Stannis to let her burn Shireen. If she had stayed, I'm pretty certain Stannis probably would have killed her after her actions cost him half his army, and his calvary at that.
It's hard to say how closely the next season will cleave to the storylines of the books. They've deviated pretty broadly at this point.
In the books:
Shireen is still alive and safe at Castle Black with her mother.
Stannis is still alive and has not yet reached Winterfell to begin sieging it.
Sansa is still in the Vale.
Jaime is caught up in the Lady Stoneheart storyline, along with Brienne
Tyrion and Jorah have not yet reached Mereen
Stannis is still alive and has not yet reached Winterfell to begin sieging it.
Sansa is still in the Vale.
Jaime is caught up in the Lady Stoneheart storyline, along with Brienne
Tyrion and Jorah have not yet reached Mereen
So, it's going to be interesting to see what happens next season.
Riceball
Master Member
I don't think that Stannis is dead either, I think that Brienne has bigger fish to fry than getting (petty) vengeance on Stannis. I got the feeling that she's going to recruit him to help her with her mission of rescuing Sansa. How much a badly wounded, ex-would-be king would be of help to her I don't know but if he recovers he would increase her forces by 50%, sure, it only brings her numbers up to 3, but 3 is better than 2.
Solo4114
Master Member
I don't think Stannis would've killed her. I just think she recognized that Stannis was a lost cause.
In terms of the losing faith thing, I think it's more that she's questioning herself as a priestess and her own abilities, given that she interpreted things a particular way, and they didn't turn out as she had interpreted them. In the books, as mentioned, she has a POV chapter or two where you see that she kinda makes it up as she goes. I think they did this on the show, too, back in season 2 or 3. Anyway, she makes it clear that the certainty with which she speaks is kind of a front. She's sure that Rhllor is guiding her to Azhor Ahai, but she pushes her interpretation with Stannis.
One of the things mentioned in the books -- and I think also in the show -- is the unreliability of loosely worded prophecies and how adherence to them tends to bite people in the ass. When she said she saw Bolton banners in flames...I mean, yeah, maybe she did. Doesn't mean STANNIS set the fires. Maybe they burn because the candle that Sansa lit falls over. Maybe they burn because Jon rises from the dead and burns them. Maybe they burn a decade later when Dany comes to Westeros with full-grown dragons and torches 'em. But her interpretation was "Oh, my king, you will definitely win. I have seen it in the flames."
In terms of the losing faith thing, I think it's more that she's questioning herself as a priestess and her own abilities, given that she interpreted things a particular way, and they didn't turn out as she had interpreted them. In the books, as mentioned, she has a POV chapter or two where you see that she kinda makes it up as she goes. I think they did this on the show, too, back in season 2 or 3. Anyway, she makes it clear that the certainty with which she speaks is kind of a front. She's sure that Rhllor is guiding her to Azhor Ahai, but she pushes her interpretation with Stannis.
One of the things mentioned in the books -- and I think also in the show -- is the unreliability of loosely worded prophecies and how adherence to them tends to bite people in the ass. When she said she saw Bolton banners in flames...I mean, yeah, maybe she did. Doesn't mean STANNIS set the fires. Maybe they burn because the candle that Sansa lit falls over. Maybe they burn because Jon rises from the dead and burns them. Maybe they burn a decade later when Dany comes to Westeros with full-grown dragons and torches 'em. But her interpretation was "Oh, my king, you will definitely win. I have seen it in the flames."
Hammer3246
Sr Member
LOL. I just find it funny. I suppose we'll see next season if Jon is dead, will you stand by your statement?
Ya I mean Jon was what was keeping me interested because I had someone to cheer for. None of the other storylines are keeping my interest. I was really hoping they would pursue the R+D=J and maybe see Jon actually having kings blood. Without Jon I really don't have anyone I care about.
Hammer3246
Sr Member
I'm with you on that, I hope they do something to keep him going also. The Starks took a beating in the last episide.
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Riceball
Master Member
You're assuming that he's dead dead. I, along with a good deal of other fans, feel that the whole thing with his (presumed) bloodline is a strong argument for him only being, mostly dead. I'll admit that the mystery behind his parentage, and whether not he's truly a Snow, could be just a red herring on GRRM's part but I strongly suspect he's the Ice part of the Song of Ice and Fire since Dany is clearly the fire part.
infymys
Sr Member
I was waiting in anticipation to see if his eyes would white out or even turn blue.
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I was wondering myself. It looks that they are made up of both masters and slaves based on the dress. They really didn't delve into any motivation other than we don't want Danny as a ruler. I guess they figured anyone in the arena not wearing a mask, was not aligned to their cause.
They seemed much more like indiscriminate terrorists
Solo4114
Master Member
Yeah, it really wasn't clear. In the books, they don't -- at least as I recall -- target any of the former masters, except for those who ally with Dany, and they only target former slaves otherwise. So, when they just start stabbing everyone in the arena indiscriminately, it really made me say "Wait, what the hell is going on here?!" I think that the showrunners just couldn't be bothered to flesh that storyline out. I don't blame them, really. Dany's Iraqi Misadventures is probably my least favorite part of Book 5. I see where it was going, at this point, but it just takes FOREVER to get there, and the journey is neither particularly fun nor interesting. I appreciate that the show sort of sped all that up and simplified it, but the Sons of the Harpy thing just seemed like they screwed it up. It could've been handled easily. Target Dany, and stab anyone who tries to stop them, but don't target anyone else.
At the end of the season, they're talking about how Mereen is on the brink of civil war, but from what happened in the arena, I have zero idea who the relevant factions are, unless it's "Pro-Dany" vs. "Anti-Dany."
DuneMuadDib
Sr Member
Slight tinfoil hat here: Assuming Jon dies and comes back (or is only mostly dead) and assuming that R+L=J is true is Jon being (mostly) killed a loophole to get out of his vows to the Watch so that he's free to assume the Iron Throne?
Free to hook up with Dany and Tyrion, and then completely obliterate everything in their paths.
Think about it, the three of them are the best group possible.
You have Dany, who has the charisma, Tyrion, who has the political savvy, and Jon Snow, who has the leadership qualities.
They would easily roll over Westeros and unite them against the White Walkers, especially if they get Braavos and Dorne on their side.
