Star Wars EU - the things it got really wrong

[KrangPrime]

you forgot noodles ;o)

 

[Solo4114]

I suppose that'll be something the story group will be tasked with: enforcing better "worldbuilding." I mean, say what you will about George RR Martin's fascination with fashion and food, but it really does help flesh out the world his characters inhabit. Honestly, it's like the EU needed a clear "sourcebook" a la the old TSR sourcebooks or campaign settings.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

A lot of what I liked about WEG's offerings was just that -- slang, foods, musicians, mixed drinks, the Star Wars version of TMZ...

--Jonah

 

[squirk]

I haven't read enough of the EU to give a well-informed opinion on the material overall. Honestly, not many of the EU novels ever grabbed hold of me. I found most to be rather forgettable.

However, I do remember "Jedi Search" (I think; it was a while ago) where little bitty Jaina and Jacen got lost on the streets of Coruscant and lived out a "real-life" version of their favorite bedtime story "The Little Lost Bantha Cub". The contrivance was nauseating.

 

[Solo4114]

I haven't read enough of the EU to give a well-informed opinion on the material overall. Honestly, not many of the EU novels ever grabbed hold of me. I found most to be rather forgettable.

However, I do remember "Jedi Search" (I think; it was a while ago) where little bitty Jaina and Jacen got lost on the streets of Coruscant and lived out a "real-life" version of their favorite bedtime story "The Little Lost Bantha Cub". The contrivance was nauseating.

Yeah, that was Kevin J. Anderson's Jedi Academy series. And that part was absolute dreck. I HATED the "We are lost" nonsense. There were a few "ok" aspects to that series, but by and large, it was a nosedive in quality from the Zahn trilogy that immediately preceded it. At the time, I "kinda" liked it, but thigns like the Sun Crusher and Dorsk-81 shoving an entire fleet back into space with the powah of the Force were just incredibly incredibly cheesy.

Then he went on to do the incredibly mediocre Dune prequels and, I hear, took notes and outlines from Frank Herbert and managed to make some truly awful sequels to Chapterhouse: Dune.

His stuff is like semi-decent fan fiction.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

And that's why KJA never wrote any other SW books afterwards. The only KJA thing I liked was that book with the McQuarrie art that introduced each OT planet from a different perspective. For example, the Yavin IV story was from the view of a Rebel survey group who was mapping the site for future use.

I did like the lower Coruscant stuff, but not that particular Solo Twins thing. Hopefully some future EU stuff, similar to that 1313 game will explore more of the Coruscant undercity.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Yeah... nothing except Darksaber, editing and contributing toTales From the Mos Eisley Cantina, Tales of the Bounty Hunters, Tales From Jabba's Palace, the Tales of the Jedi comics, co-writing the Young Jedi Knights books...

--Jonah

 

[Solo4114]

Oh man...Darksaber...there was another stinker. Really, that whole period was a fairly weak run for Star Wars novels. The X-wing series was ok (well, the first three books. I didn't read past that), but I have a tough time remembering books from that period that I thought were genuinely good.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

Darksaber was one I liked after I read i the first time, then the second time it came through on how stupid it was.

You never read Wraith Squadron?!?! That's the best of the series! Well other than the horse pilot. I wish to god he had not said Runt looks exactly like a horse. He was described as equine, but that doesn't have to literally be a horse. You're not reading it now right? :lol I just ignore that part.

 

[Paul Andrew]

The Rogue and Wraith Squadron books are far and away the best of the old EU.
By the time I got to the Fate of the Jedi stuff I was really second guessing why I was still reading it, so much that I didn't ever read the last couple.

In retrospect I kind of hate how the force was sort of a catch all answer for everything.

 

[Solo4114]

Well, you can blame Uncle George for that.

"Where do babies come from?"

"The Force."


In all seriousness, my favorites (that I read, anyway) were the Zahn series and the Brian Daley Han Solo series (partially because they were done so early on that Daley just includes a bunch of really out-there stuff that never really appears again, like Xim the Despot and the Corporate Sector Authority). The X-wing books were good, but I seem to recall the series not being finished or me not being able to find the next book in the series or something like that.

I read most of the books up through the Black Fleet Crisis, at which point I decided these books were really just crap with a Star Wars logo on them, and gave up.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

There were definitely ups and downs, Dan. First ones I read after the Star Wars novelization itself were Splinter of the Mind's Eye (trippy as hell for a six-year-old, let me tell you) and Brian Daley's Han Solo books, which I still love and read over and over. All they need to do for a Han Solo Anthology* film is make Han Solo at Stars' End and I'll be happy. My local papers didn't run the Archie Goodwin strip that I ever saw, so I didn't know about that til much later, but I did read Marvel's comic series with varying degrees of satisfaction. But for all the clinkers, there were some wonderful things that came out of there, like Hoojibs and the expansion on Mandalorians (love Fenn Shysa).

[* Apparently the name of these has changed, as of D23. Now called something like "Star Wars Stories" or something else I like less than Anthologies.]

I was primed when the Star Wars Renaissance happened... but while I felt Dark Empire and Heir to the Empire were okay, I wasn't massively thrilled with either series. Much as with the old Marvel comic series, there were elements I liked, but overall they were lacking in something. The only ones that have really stood out for me were the Tales of the Jedi, Knights of the Old Republic, Crimson Empire, and Legacy comics, Tatooine Ghost, Aaron Allston's and Karen Traviss' contributions to the Legacy of the Force series, he X-Wing comics and novels (though Corran is the ultimate Mary Sue)... and anything by Matt Stover or James Luceno. Matt has a wonderful storytelling style that just kind of pulls one in. And James was Brian Daley's writing partner of old (indeed the two of them together worked under the pseudonym Jack McKinney), and while he tends to over-flowery prose for the first couple pages of his books, he soon calms down and starts telling really solid stories. I've also liked some of the fairly recent offerings like Kenobi and Aftermath. And I'll throw in a special mention for the Corellian trilogy that I hardly ever see anyone mention -- for good or ill. I liked them and the insight they gave into the Corellian system.

I recommend hunting down those I mentioned positively. I think I know enough by now about how you think that I'm pretty sure you'd like them. Particularly the rest of the X-Wing stuff (all nine books and the Dark Horse omnibuses [omnibi?] of the comic series).

--Jonah

 

[Solo4114]

Jack McKinney? As in the Robotech books?

I enjoyed and own a full run of the Dark Horse Comics reprint of the Goodwin/Williamson series. I have the earliest appearances of the Tales of the Jedi stuff from Dark Horse Comics Presents, and have the initial run of that series, too. Dark Empire 1 and 2 were...meh. I liked them initially, but later I came to just regard them as so-so offerings. The Clone Emperor thing was super weak as a plot point. I liked the background info on the Corellian trilogy, but otherwise very much disliked the series with its focus on Thrackan Sal-Solo (Han's cousin who just happens to also be a bad guy), and the way the kids were depicted.


Really, in my opinion, while there were some diamonds in the rough, I'm kinda glad they nuked the whole thing.

 

[Riceball]

In my opinion, invoking the name of Jack McKinney is no way to suggest that any books written by the pair are any good, I hated the Robotech books even if I did own most of them.

 

[Solo4114]

I think I read the first one, or at least most of it. The "thinking cap" aspect of the helmets was...an odd choice. The rest was basically just retelling the Macross saga in novel form, so it wasn't that hard to do. I gather when they got to the Sentinels stuff, things got wacky. And the whole "Minmay is the source of ALL THINGS IN THE UNIVERSE or something" thing that I heard they ended the series with...that's just way too weird for my tastes.

Daley, though, I enjoyed. His work in the Han Solo trilogy was a lot of fun, and I appreciated most of what he added to the Star Wars radio dramas.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

I'll also point to Daley's scripts for the Star Wars radio dramas. I'm hoping some of the Battle of Toprawa we heard in the beginning of the Star Wars one is touched on at the end of Rogue One -- when the plans get out to Leia. I liked that Luke was testing on the Rebels' simulators while the plans were being downloaded and analyzed. That and Biggs' vouching for him getting him into Red Squadron is kinda an important story point (along with Red Leader having met Anakin years before).

And yeah, "Jack McKinney" had some... interesting ideas, but to be fair a lot of the stuff that Carl Macek wrote to tie those three unrelated anime series together into Robotech got more than a little trippy -- especially where protoculture, the Invid, and the Flower of Life were concerned. So I wouldn't put that on them. They were working from a lot of Macek's notes and the unproduced scripts for the unfinished Sentinels series to write those. Kinda like how Alan Dean Foster was working from a lot of stuff that George didn't put into Star Wars to write Splinter of the Mind's Eye.

--Jonah

 

[Riceball]

And yeah, "Jack McKinney" had some... interesting ideas, but to be fair a lot of the stuff that Carl Macek wrote to tie those three unrelated anime series together into Robotech got more than a little trippy -- especially where protoculture, the Invid, and the Flower of Life were concerned. So I wouldn't put that on them. They were working from a lot of Macek's notes and the unproduced scripts for the unfinished Sentinels series to write those. Kinda like how Alan Dean Foster was working from a lot of stuff that George didn't put into Star Wars to write Splinter of the Mind's Eye.

--Jonah

I'm sure that they were working from a lot of Macek's notes but there was a lot of stuff that they probably made up themselves like the "thinking caps" and various mecha, the hovertanks in particular iirc, being described as being as large as a house. As big of a Robotech that I was during its heydays I never really liked the novels even though I got most or all of them.

 

[Solo4114]

I mean, the hovertanks (the things the ground forces drove in the Southern Cross series) were big, but...big as a house? I think that's just people who hadn't paid attention to the animation. The Monster Destroid was that big, but that was it.

 

[KrangPrime]

So, I finally finished Tarkin. Now THAT was good. you kind of get to like tarken a little, so long as you forget he murdered millions of innocent beings without a second thought....but you can understand his reasonings....a good book should try and humanize the villain a little so they aren't just twirly mustache guy.

On to Razors Edge. don't disappoint me. only 4 more books left in the 'legends' category, and I'll have read everything since Heir, minus the two horror novels.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh man...Darksaber...there was another stinker. Really, that whole period was a fairly weak run for Star Wars novels. The X-wing series was ok (well, the first three books. I didn't read past that), but I have a tough time remembering books from that period that I thought were genuinely good.

yep.....I try to forget the terror of Kevin J Fan Fiction Anderson. Although, once I get all done, I may go back and re read some of them to see if they still stand up as that b ad.

- - - Updated - - -

And that's why KJA never wrote any other SW books afterwards

I always wondered why he vanished without a trace. he was the poster boy for a long while and then not a peep out of him. wonder what the reason was..

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

So, I finally finished Tarkin. Now THAT was good. you kind of get to like tarken a little, so long as you forget he murdered millions of innocent beings without a second thought....but you can understand his reasonings....a good book should try and humanize the villain a little so they aren't just twirly mustache guy.

On to Razors Edge. don't disappoint me. only 4 more books left in the 'legends' category, and I'll have read everything since Heir, minus the two horror novels.

Um... You do know Tarkin is canon, not Legends, right? Second of the New Canon offerings after A New Dawn. In case you're unsure where the line is... There were a couple post-Fate of the Jedi installments (X-Wing: Mercy Kill and Crucible), but they ended the post-ROTJ EU there as they started to have inklings of what they were going to be doing for Episode VII. That was mid-2013. The last three EU/Legends books are actually a little nebulous. Yeah, they're Legends, but they were written in collaboration/consultation with the Story Group and are only not canon because the Story Group hasn't wanted to "play favorites". Kenobi came first, and New Canon writers have already been working to incorporate stuff from it, or allude to it (most notably issue #7 of the new Marvel comic run, which they directly said was inspired by and meant to follow on to Kenobi a couple years later). Then they started the Empire and Rebellion trilogy. Razor's Edge and Honor Among Thieves were out when Lucasfilm announced the end of the EU. Honor Among Thieves is the last Legends book published. Heir to the Jedi was to be the third book in that series, but is now a standalone work in the New Canon.

The New Canon publishing timeline goes (so far):
- Darth Maul: Son of Dathomir (comic miniseries, Dark Horse) [While this is on the wrong side of the Legends/Canon terminator, it's canon since it is an unproduced story arc from Clone Wars.]
- A New Dawn
- Tarkin
- Star Wars, et al (comic series and miniseries, Marvel) [I'm lumping all the subsequent titles in with the launch of the main title, for convenience.]
- Heir to the Jedi
- Lords of the Sith
- Dark Disciple (another unproduced story arc from Clone Wars)
- Aftermath
- Lost Stars
- The Force Awakens (novelization, forthcoming)

There are a bunch of short stories and comic strips that have been in the magazines, which are also all considered canon, plus numerous junior reader and young reader offerings. And video games. I don't know how much you bother with all of those. You just mentioned novels, but I also listed the comics that I think deserve a read. But those seven books I listed are all canon (eight when the TFA novelization drops on 18 December). Given that, I don't know where your Legends reading list actually is...

yep.....I try to forget the terror of Kevin J Fan Fiction Anderson. Although, once I get all done, I may go back and re read some of them to see if they still stand up as that bad.

From talking to him, I know he was somewhat constrained in what he could tell by the editors. Like Daala's "fleet" of three Star Destroyers being reacted to by the New Republic like an end-of-the-world threat. I like a lot of his standalone fiction. I don't get the hating on his collaboration with Brian Herbert to take Frank's notes and expand them into actual stories. And I find his Star Wars offerings a bit better than middle-of-the-road. For all the neat characters Tim Zahn introduced, I like his writing style less. And while the X-Wing books and comics are a fun roller-coaster ride, and I adore and miss Aaron Allston, I have a hard time getting past Michael Stackpole and Corran "Mary Sue" Horn.

When Kevin was given more creative control, the results were better. In his direct sequel to the Jedi Academy books, he immediately fixed Daala's backstory from her only getting her rank by being Tarkin's mistress to it only being gossip that that's how she'd gotten her rank. And I don't have any problem with the central plot of that book (Darksaber). His stint as the writer on the Tales of the Jedi comics made those my favorite of Dark Horse's run.

I do recommend reading his "Dan Shamble, Zombie P.I." series.

I always wondered why he vanished without a trace. he was the poster boy for a long while and then not a peep out of him. wonder what the reason was..

From reading between the lines...? I'm going to go with a combination of frustration at the editors and being done with the stories he had started out to tell (Jedi Academy trilogy-plus-one, Tales of the Jedi comics, and the Young Jedi Knights series he co-wrote with Rebecca Moesta). I do know from talking to him that he loves where Daala's arc went in Planet of Twilight and the Legacy of the Force series, but hates what they did to her in Fate of the Jedi. He also loved writing in the 3,000BBY era of Tales of the Jedi/KOTOR. He's seen how the guard has changed at the publishing arm and now wouldn't mind coming back to 1) Bring Daala properly fleshed out into the New Canon, and 2) revisit the Old Republic. Since there's about three millennia of zero data between then and the films, I like to think anything can be done in the intervening years to lead from what happened in that setting to the situation we have in the films. The Story Group, for their part, have waffled several times over whether to make the TotJ/KOTOR period works canon, but they most recently decided not. Same reason as with Kenobi and the Empire and Rebellion, um, duology -- they don't want to play favorites. They know they'd instantly get hit with a deluge of "why this and not that?" and just encourage new authors to grab the good stuff from the bin and make it canon.

--Jonah