Star Trek: Questions you always wanted answers to

Pretty much anyone in the Star Trek universe that has access to a transporter could extend their lives. We've seen the transporters fix all sorts of medical problems, store people's patterns for extended periods of time, and even clone individuals, including all their memories and personality. It's a storytelling problem that we have to ignore if you start looking too closely at things.

Exactly. The transporter could and SHOULD be able to keep you perpetually at whatever age you desire.

Feel you are at your prime at age thirty? Then you keep samples of your DNA in the medical bay, and then maybe at every birthday, you "beam" yourself through the transporter system, using your stored 30 year old DNA as a filter, so that when you re-materialize, you are physically back to being 30 again. You would specifically have the transporter NOT mess with your brain's neurons however, as you don't want to "reset" your brain and the knowledge you had acquired as you age.
 
...And even though the torpedo tube did not somehow disintegrate on atmospheric entry on the Genesis planetoid... it didn't have thrusters to help it decelerate or even "land", and it would have CRASHED into the ocean or land, and certainly been shredded to smithereens at impact.

...And even though it DID survive its crash landing, the corpse inside most certainly would NOT HAVE remained intact. It would have been green fleshy goo and pulverized bones inside the torpedo tube.

gravity fields were in flux, by sheer luck it landed intact. And even if the body was goo at that point, thats not really a problem as it was regenerated from DNA. no sign of the adult body around when they find child Spock.
 
Excuse me while I roll up my sleeves...

Well, it never made sense to me that the Enterprise crew jetisoned Spock's body at the Genesis planetoid in the first place. Why wouldn't they keep the body in the Enterprise morgue, and deliver it Spock's family/Sarek, or at the very LEAST deliver it to the Vulcan Starfleet representative, for a proper Vulcan burial/ceremony?

It was pointed out earlier in this thread that it was irradiated. One could make the case that it's Starfleet protocol to dispose of the body due to quarantine issues.

And they gutted a torpedo tube to place the body inside it.... why? On a starship with hundreds of crew members, a medical bay and the ability to perform surgical procedures, you know they had coffins on board. Or at the very least, the ship's replicators could create one as needed. The torpedo seems to be a plot device, just so they could shoot his body into the void. Unless this was standard Starfleet procedure (to jettison dead crewmates when on a mission, when away from a Starfleet member world or space station for an extended period of time).

Again, radiation leakage...you wouldn't put Spock's body in a coffin to take home.
But your second explanation works as well.

...And then there was NO representation of Spock's Vulcan identity at the funeral. Kirk spoke briefly about how HUMAN Spock ultimately was. Amazing Grace was played, on the bagpipes. Which is a Christian, Western Society tradition (I know, bagpipes come from Scotland/Europe). Amazing Grace is a 100% relatively modern Christian song that speaks about overcoming life's troubles with divine help, and ultimately the promise of eternal life in Heaven with God. It would be highly inappropriate to use this song at his funeral, UNLESS:
1) Spock had converted to Christianity, or...
2) They lyrics had been changed over the years, to remove the religious connotation, or...
3) Spock just liked the song and would have wanted it to be played at his funeral (we later learn in ST 6 that Spock had a painting of the Expulsion from Paradise in his private quarters... he referenced it as an Earth myth that reminded him that all things end).

Agreed, that's Nicholas Meyer tugging at audience heartstrings. The story goes that composer James Horner begged Meyer not to include that, because it didn't fit the sci-fi situation, to no avail.

My explanation? It was Scotty's idea and desire to play that, due to his own heritage.

As for Kirk calling Spock human, we know that is a compliment that Spock never truly understood. Kirk had to explain to him in ST6 that "everyone's human" in the way that he uses the term (and therefore Klingons are not animals). While Spock originally aspired to be as Vulcan as possible, Kirk's compliment suggests that Spock was really like us all.

...And even though the torpedo tube did not somehow disintegrate on atmospheric entry on the Genesis planetoid... it didn't have thrusters to help it decelerate or even "land", and it would have CRASHED into the ocean or land, and certainly been shredded to smithereens at impact.

...And even though it DID survive its crash landing, the corpse inside most certainly would NOT HAVE remained intact. It would have been green fleshy goo and pulverized bones inside the torpedo tube.

David's line covers this: "Gravitational fields were in flux...it must have soft-landed". Imagine high gravity to snatch the tube from space, and ligt gravity at the time it hit the ground.

..And since a Vulcan's Katra was a known "thing" in the Vulcan society, then the only way Sarek would have known to seek Kirk and read him the riot act would be because it WAS commonly (or at least, not infrequently) acted upon to somehow preserve the deceased Vulcan's mind/spirit/essence. But there's no indication that Spock's Katra communicated with Sarek for Sarek to be aware of what was really going on... because Sarek didn't know any of the details. Kirk didn't know what Sarek was talking about, which meant that probably NO HUMAN would know about the Katra... which means that Sarek should not have been upset with Kirk for not knowing about some private, ancient Vulcan ritual that was never discussed with outsiders.

Yes and no. You are correct that no human knows about the Katra, but Sarek originally thought that Kirk was actually carrying Spock's Katra, and therefore would absolutely know what he should do....hence the riot act. "You were the last one to be with him"..."Because he ASKED YOU to...because he entrusted you with his very essence....his Katra"

Also, Sarek knew Spock's body was found on Genesis because the Grissom informed Starfleet as soon as they discovered it. Captain Esteban is a by-the-book kind of guy, so he was in touch every step of the way right until it was jammed prior to its destruction. So back home, everyone knew the body had been found. They just didn't know it had regenerated into a child.

...and exactly HOW was this used in day to day Vulcan society? Grandma is on her death bed, so she does a quick mind meld with a family member to pass on her spirit... and then what? Did the recipient now have their relative's mind living inside of them?

It's never elaborated in canon, but authors at the time (Diane Duane, I think?) tackled this in non-canon novels, so take it for what it's worth. The notion was that yes, the katra would go to the person they were closest to (usually a mate or family member), and then that person would somehow lay the Katra to rest in some ceremony, kind of adding all that essence with the essence of the people...Minbari style.

We have some evidence of that with Sarek's line: "Forgive me, it is not here...then everything he was, everything he knew...is lost." That suggests that Spock's knowledge could have otherwise been preserved, even in death. This is before anyone knew that Spock's body was regenerated. So I buy the novels' explanation.

The closest I THINK we got was when Sarek mind melded with Picard, and then Picard allowed Spock to mind meld with him and experience Sarek's sssence/mind/Katra ??? So, did Picard possess the mind of Sarek, and then hand it over to Spock?

No, you can't make copies of the Katra. Picard gave it back to Sarek...but some memories of the experience remained with Picard, and that's what he shared with Spock.

Whew!
 
Curious on this topic…

We all know that Star Trek II went thought a number of title changes (The Undiscovered Country, The Vengeance of Khan, etc,) before landing on The Wrath of Khan.

Like Return of the Jedi, which had some marketing material for Revenge of the Jedi make it to market before its own title change, it appears that some Vengeance of Khan merchandise did reach the market.

A few weeks ago, I picked up a Corgi Klingon Cruiser that was branded as a Vengeance of Khan item.

IMG_3564.jpeg


IMG_3564.jpeg


Does anyone else have any other Vengeance of Khan merch or marketing material examples that were released?

IMG_3729.jpeg
 
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Does anyone know when the title was officially changed? Now I want to know the timing of the name change with regards to the public reveal of the new uniforms.
 
gravity fields were in flux, by sheer luck it landed intact. And even if the body was goo at that point, thats not really a problem as it was regenerated from DNA. no sign of the adult body around when they find child Spock.

...which makes me wonder, WHAT happened to the original adult body? I guess it's possible that Spock's remains were cremated and placed within the torpedo. Or the biological matter of his dead adult body was absorbed and reformed... but why he would RESET to a child still doesn't make biological sense. Because, if we are going strictly by DNA, then NEW Spock should have started off as a rapidly dividing zygote, which requires a female womb for maturation (even in Vulcans).

...and how appropriate at the time they rescue adult Spock from the Genesis planetoid, although he is rapidly aging, he happens to be roughly the same age as he was when he died (once his unknown connection to Genesis was severed).
 
...which makes me wonder, WHAT happened to the original adult body? I guess it's possible that Spock's remains were cremated and placed within the torpedo. Or the biological matter of his dead adult body was absorbed and reformed... but why he would RESET to a child still doesn't make biological sense. Because, if we are going strictly by DNA, then NEW Spock should have started off as a rapidly dividing zygote, which requires a female womb for maturation (even in Vulcans).

Yeah, David gives us only one clue here: "His cells could have been regenerated." So, youthful cells directly from the DNA blueprint?

...and how appropriate at the time they rescue adult Spock from the Genesis planetoid, although he is rapidly aging, he happens to be roughly the same age as he was when he died (once his unknown connection to Genesis was severed).

I gathered from the way things unfolded that Spock rapidly aged until he reached the latest point at which his DNA has existed, and came to a stop at that point. That David says that Spock and the planet are connected is interesting...protomatter explains it all, I guess?
 
Excuse me while I roll up my sleeves...



It was pointed out earlier in this thread that it was irradiated. One could make the case that it's Starfleet protocol to dispose of the body due to quarantine issues.



Again, radiation leakage...you wouldn't put Spock's body in a coffin to take home.
But your second explanation works as well.



Agreed, that's Nicholas Meyer tugging at audience heartstrings. The story goes that composer James Horner begged Meyer not to include that, because it didn't fit the sci-fi situation, to no avail.

My explanation? It was Scotty's idea and desire to play that, due to his own heritage.

As for Kirk calling Spock human, we know that is a compliment that Spock never truly understood. Kirk had to explain to him in ST6 that "everyone's human" in the way that he uses the term (and therefore Klingons are not animals). While Spock originally aspired to be as Vulcan as possible, Kirk's compliment suggests that Spock was really like us all.



David's line covers this: "Gravitational fields were in flux...it must have soft-landed". Imagine high gravity to snatch the tube from space, and ligt gravity at the time it hit the ground.



Yes and no. You are correct that no human knows about the Katra, but Sarek originally thought that Kirk was actually carrying Spock's Katra, and therefore would absolutely know what he should do....hence the riot act. "You were the last one to be with him"..."Because he ASKED YOU to...because he entrusted you with his very essence....his Katra"

Also, Sarek knew Spock's body was found on Genesis because the Grissom informed Starfleet as soon as they discovered it. Captain Esteban is a by-the-book kind of guy, so he was in touch every step of the way right until it was jammed prior to its destruction. So back home, everyone knew the body had been found. They just didn't know it had regenerated into a child.



It's never elaborated in canon, but authors at the time (Diane Duane, I think?) tackled this in non-canon novels, so take it for what it's worth. The notion was that yes, the katra would go to the person they were closest to (usually a mate or family member), and then that person would somehow lay the Katra to rest in some ceremony, kind of adding all that essence with the essence of the people...Minbari style.

We have some evidence of that with Sarek's line: "Forgive me, it is not here...then everything he was, everything he knew...is lost." That suggests that Spock's knowledge could have otherwise been preserved, even in death. This is before anyone knew that Spock's body was regenerated. So I buy the novels' explanation.



No, you can't make copies of the Katra. Picard gave it back to Sarek...but some memories of the experience remained with Picard, and that's what he shared with Spock.

Whew!

I applaud your effort!

And we all admit that it's JUST a movie, and some hand waving has to happen for the entertainment value.

Seems like the Vulcan katra concept was original to ST3, correct? Was it ever brought up again in any of the subsequent films or TV series?

...but I'm still not sold as to why they had to dump Spock's body ASAP. If it was a radiation issue... well, the irradiated compartment he was in was enough to shield the crew, so they could have placed him in a similar shielded area.
...and the torpedo tube was apparently "enough" shielding that they could all be in its presence, without protective gear, to have a funeral.
...they could have placed him in the torpedo tube, then placed it in a sealed cargo bay to prevent crew exposure. Heck ,place it in a shuttle and have it to follow the Enterprise, automated.
...they had warp drive at least partially restored due to Spock's efforts, and communications restored, so they could have contacted the Vulcans directly or gone through Starfleet to have another ship meet them on their journey, and take Spock's body.
...and at warp speed, they outran the Reliant's nuclear implosion and the Genesis Wave effect, correct? So they were QUITE a distance away from the Genesis planetoid when Spock died. But then... they launch the torpedo DIRECTLY at Genesis, and watch it fly into the sunset/sunrise. So, did the Enterprise turn around and go BACK to Genesis for the funeral? And if so, why not take Captain Spock's highly radioactive "danger-to-the crew-if-it-remains-onboard" body (in a torpedo tube, of course) and inter it on the deserted, orbiting Regula 1 Space Station, until it could be picked up later?
 
Does anyone know when the title was officially changed? Now I want to know the timing of the name change with regards to the public reveal of the new uniforms.

I seem to remember reading a story about "Revenge of the Jedi" in SW Insider, talking about why it was changed. One of the theories was that they thought it might be confused with the ST movie. I had no idea it had the Vengeance title, so that makes more sense now.
 
...but I'm still not sold as to why they had to dump Spock's body ASAP. If it was a radiation issue... well, the irradiated compartment he was in was enough to shield the crew, so they could have placed him in a similar shielded area.
...and the torpedo tube was apparently "enough" shielding that they could all be in its presence, without protective gear, to have a funeral.
...they could have placed him in the torpedo tube, then placed it in a sealed cargo bay to prevent crew exposure. Heck ,place it in a shuttle and have it to follow the Enterprise, automated.
...they had warp drive at least partially restored due to Spock's efforts, and communications restored, so they could have contacted the Vulcans directly or gone through Starfleet to have another ship meet them on their journey, and take Spock's body.

So this is the answer to all of that which fits in my head-canon:

Very simply, Kirk figured the Vulcans would be their typical unsentimental selves about things, and he had no idea (or didn't care) that there was more to it than that. So he did things his own way, as he always does, and followed a time-honored naval tradition. He likes antiques, so an antiquated ceremony makes sense. He did it because he wanted to.

But then... they launch the torpedo DIRECTLY at Genesis, and watch it fly into the sunset/sunrise.

No, it looks more like they launched it at Genesis' sun, bypassing the planet. Genesis' wonky gravitational fields picked it up on the way. They did not warp back to Genesis for the ceremony, but had it on viewer from a distance.

And if so, why not take Captain Spock's highly radioactive "danger-to-the crew-if-it-remains-onboard" body (in a torpedo tube, of course) and inter it on the deserted, orbiting Regula 1 Space Station, until it could be picked up later?

I'm pretty sure Regula 1 (or Regula itself, for that matter) no longer exists. It was within a few minutes' impulse drive speed from the Mutara nebula, so I always figured the bulk of the mass of Genesis is Regula itself.

And we all admit that it's JUST a movie, and some hand waving has to happen for the entertainment value.

Totally agree! :) But for the part of me who was (and always shall be) ten years old when that came out, it was important. So I'm giving that little guy a break. ;)
 
Back to STIII:
David reveals to Saavik that he used protomatter, and she says:
"How many have paid the price for your impatience? How many have died? How much damage have you done, and what is yet to come?"

...well....
His use of protomatter made Genesis not work as intended. It didn't make it any more prone to be stolen by Khan or Klingons.
 
Back to STIII:
David reveals to Saavik that he used protomatter, and she says:
"How many have paid the price for your impatience? How many have died? How much damage have you done, and what is yet to come?"

...well....
His use of protomatter made Genesis not work as intended. It didn't make it any more prone to be stolen by Khan or Klingons.

I take it to mean that if David hadn’t rushed the project to completion, then the chain of events leading to Khan’s escape, the murder of the Genesis team, the deaths of Spock/cadets/Khan and his people, and the destruction of the Grissom wouldn’t have happened.
 
Back to STIII:
David reveals to Saavik that he used protomatter, and she says:
"How many have paid the price for your impatience? How many have died? How much damage have you done, and what is yet to come?"

...well....
His use of protomatter made Genesis not work as intended. It didn't make it any more prone to be stolen by Khan or Klingons.
I understand where you're coming from on this, but while the protomatter didn't make it stealable, it certainly made it available when Khan hijacked Reliant. Had David taken his time, things probably wouldn't have happened the way they did; by the time Reliant found Ceti Alpha 6/5, Khan and his people probably would have perished long since (it looked like they were barely hanging on as it were).
 
I take it to mean that if David hadn’t rushed the project to completion, then the chain of events leading to Khan’s escape, the murder of the Genesis team, the deaths of Spock/cadets/Khan and his people, and the destruction of the Grissom wouldn’t have happened.
I understand where you're coming from on this, but while the protomatter didn't make it stealable, it certainly made it available when Khan hijacked Reliant. Had David taken his time, things probably wouldn't have happened the way they did; by the time Reliant found Ceti Alpha 6/5, Khan and his people probably would have perished long since (it looked like they were barely hanging on as it were).

Love these points, and agree. And the case could be made that narratively speaking, this is why David had to die. The chain of events he set off finally looped back and took him out.
 
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I get ya, but the project was the project, and even if it had taken longer, without protomatter, someone still would've wanted to steal it. It's kind of like blaming the wife for asking you a 10 second question before leaving the house, because if she hadn't you wouldn't have been in that exact spot at that exact time to get in a fender bender on the way to work. "How many fenders have died for your question?" You can always trace events leading up to an event where you can say "if only".

The blame should be more about the project itself, and not how he made it. She should be blaming Carol, and the Federation for supporting it, just as much.
 

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