Star Trek: Questions you always wanted answers to
- Thread starter Riceball
- Start date
Sarek specifically tells Kirk that he must bring them both to Vulcan, so I suspect that having Spock's body brought as well was necessary to lay the Katra to rest properly. Even McCoy in the bar was trying to get to to the body.
I would expect that Kirk figured he'd have to go hunting for a torpedo tube floating around somewhere in the Mutara sector. I would guess this is why the title is called a "Search for Spock". Turns out a search was not necessary.
And the fact that they actually found a living body for Spock meant that Fal-tor-pan was suddenly an option.
Was the Katra the equivalent of The Holdo Manuever for Star Trek?
I mean, after SFS, any Vulcan simply needs to have their Katra dumped, temporarily, into someone and a clone body made…(you don’t need Genesis for that).
“Zip-zip-zoom! Hokus Pokus! Fal-tor-Pan—and you are a new you!!”
It is not logical to use Fal-tor-pan. So no, I think Sarek departed from the traditional Vulcan way: "My logic is uncertain where my son is concerned." So it stands to reason that most Vulcans would not seek this path.
Secondly, T'Lar states that it's highly risky, both to the donor and the recipient. Again, not logical.
But yes, I think it was it was like a Holdo manueuver. Nimoy said during filming TWOK that he wanted out of the franchise, so they killed him off. And at the wrap party for TWOK he announced something like "I can't wait to come back for Star Trek 3!" I believe he negotiated his directing gig that way, that he would be mostly behind the camera and only in front of it for a few minutes. Yet the movie is all about him. Brilliant.
The big difference from the Holdo Maneuver is that they devoted an entire film to his resurrection (and hinted at it in the previous film..."remember"), not just a lucky last-minute gambit.
EDIT: According to a season 2 episode of TNG, cloning is highly looked down upon; icky, if you will. No Vulcan would participate in that.
Secondly, T'Lar states that it's highly risky, both to the donor and the recipient. Again, not logical.
But yes, I think it was it was like a Holdo manueuver. Nimoy said during filming TWOK that he wanted out of the franchise, so they killed him off. And at the wrap party for TWOK he announced something like "I can't wait to come back for Star Trek 3!" I believe he negotiated his directing gig that way, that he would be mostly behind the camera and only in front of it for a few minutes. Yet the movie is all about him. Brilliant.
The big difference from the Holdo Maneuver is that they devoted an entire film to his resurrection (and hinted at it in the previous film..."remember"), not just a lucky last-minute gambit.
EDIT: According to a season 2 episode of TNG, cloning is highly looked down upon; icky, if you will. No Vulcan would participate in that.
I believe Kirk thought he was launching the torpedo tube into space, not at the planet, as we have seen most burials in space and at sea. Committing to "the deep" and all that. But the planet was also in their view for the ceremony, and unnaturally heavy gravitational fields snatched the tube as it blew by.
So I believe Kirk was expecting to have to return to the Genesis area, and have to calculate the last known trajectory from where he previously shot the tube. A bit of a needle in a haystack "search for Spock" that he was planning to undertake. That's why time was of the essence: the longer they wait, the farther away it will be.
As for why it didn't burn up, even David is surprised the tube ended up there: "Gravitational fields were in flux. It must have soft-landed."
(I LOVE this movie and will defend it.
Bring it on!)
Lightning
Master Member
In the filming script, the Grissom scenes came first, so Kirk knows the tube soft landed from the first log entry "The news of Spock's tube has shaken me". The rewrote the captains log when they reordered in editing.
This is a cool discussion. "Why Genesis" is something I hadn't wondered before.
They were in orbit of the Genesis planet when they shot the torpedo. It was pretty clear to everyone where it was going. But yeah, at the time they wouldn't have thought it would make it to the surface intact.
Sarek was pissed about two things:
1. Spock's body being left behind. I don't think anyone was anticipating his body would regenerate, so this part is just a father wanting his son's remains. But that doesn't seem to be a very logical concern for any Vulcan. Strange.
2 AND he's peeved that Kirk (so he believed) has Spock's katra and hadn't doing anything about it. What's strange is, it's all past tense: "you denied him his future". He came to bitch at him for not having delivered Spock's katra, not to get him to do it now. As if it would already be unretrievable.
At this point there is no reason for Sarek, nor Kirk, to want to go to Genesis. They find out McCoy has the katra, so all they need to do is go to Vulcan with him. No need to get permission for that, much less steal a ship.
Spock's katra has McCoy wanting to go to Genesis, so I guess "Spock" has figured out the potential of a fal tor pan. But the possibility shouldn't be in anyone else's mind. There is no body as far as anyone knows.
So, indeed.... why Genesis?
They were in orbit of the Genesis planet when they shot the torpedo. It was pretty clear to everyone where it was going. But yeah, at the time they wouldn't have thought it would make it to the surface intact.
Sarek was pissed about two things:
1. Spock's body being left behind. I don't think anyone was anticipating his body would regenerate, so this part is just a father wanting his son's remains. But that doesn't seem to be a very logical concern for any Vulcan. Strange.
2 AND he's peeved that Kirk (so he believed) has Spock's katra and hadn't doing anything about it. What's strange is, it's all past tense: "you denied him his future". He came to bitch at him for not having delivered Spock's katra, not to get him to do it now. As if it would already be unretrievable.
At this point there is no reason for Sarek, nor Kirk, to want to go to Genesis. They find out McCoy has the katra, so all they need to do is go to Vulcan with him. No need to get permission for that, much less steal a ship.
Spock's katra has McCoy wanting to go to Genesis, so I guess "Spock" has figured out the potential of a fal tor pan. But the possibility shouldn't be in anyone else's mind. There is no body as far as anyone knows.
So, indeed.... why Genesis?
Wow, cool, I had no idea!
ah, interesting!
There are clues in several lines that Spock's body was necessary:
Sarek: "One alive and one not, yet both in pain"
Sarek: "You must bring them to Vulcan. Only there can both find peace."
Kirk: "...if there's a chance Spock has an eternal soul, then it's my responsibility."
In the non-canon novels of the time, I recall that a couple authors suggested that the wisdom of the elders (soul) can be laid to rest with the rest of the people. Married couples usually entrusted a katra to their partner before death, so that this could be accomplished.
Since McCoy was not a Vulcan, perhaps the "laying to rest" required Spock's body to be completed?
Either way, Sarek demanded it. We know at least that.
EDIT:
So what was Spock's plan? I think he had no idea that Kirk would shoot his body into space. I think Spock expected his body and soul to be taken home for its final resting place.
Lightning
Master Member
So since the scenes are in the wrong order, all the characters know that, at the very least, Spock's intact dead body is on the planet. And Spock's katra senses that his body has been regenerated, which is why it keeps telling McCoy to go back.
Normally, you would have established explicit instructions about burial beforehand, but I think the nature of Spock's death gives us an out. Starfleet regulations on the disposal of highly irradiated bodies might supersede any wishes of the deceased.
Normally, you would have established explicit instructions about burial beforehand, but I think the nature of Spock's death gives us an out. Starfleet regulations on the disposal of highly irradiated bodies might supersede any wishes of the deceased.
Hrm. Touché.
Then I must fall back on Lightning's point that Kirk must have known about the discovery on Genesis. This is patrly substantiated that Kirk already knew the Grissom would be there: "...send Captain Esteban my compliments"...
And we do know that Esteban was in constant contact with Starfleet during that mission. But Kirk could not have known that Spock was alive, because the Grissom was destroyed before that message could be sent to Starfleet.
Okay, I think you are big-time correct here. In the VERY beginning of the film, McCoy tells Kirk in Spock's voice: "You left me on Genesis. Why would you do that?" This means the katra absolutely knows the body is there.
Totally plausible. I love that.
Yes, cool discussion!
So yeah, "Why Genesis?" is still THE question, isn't it?
Kirk knows Spock's body is there, but he doesn't know it's regenerated. Would he steal the Enterprise and take down his career just to retrieve Spock's body from Esteban to have a nice ceremony on Vulcan? No way.
Hrm. We need to figure this one out...
Kirk knows Spock's body is there, but he doesn't know it's regenerated. Would he steal the Enterprise and take down his career just to retrieve Spock's body from Esteban to have a nice ceremony on Vulcan? No way.
Hrm. We need to figure this one out...
universaljoint
New Member
I think the timeline of events and dialogue very much support that the main characters know about Spock's body on Genesis .
Sarek clearly states that he's aware of Spock's body on Genesis
At Kirk's apartment:
SAREK: Why did you leave him on Genesis! Spock trusted you. You denied him his future!
Later in the apartment:
SAREK: One alive, one not. Yet both in pain.
KIRK: What must I do?
SAREK: You must bring them to Mount Seleya, ...on Vulcan. Only there can both find peace.
KIRK: What you ask ...is difficult.
SAREK: You will find a way, Kirk. ...If you honour them both, you must.
Key words: Bring Them
Coupled with the probability that Sarek was aware of Spock's PHOTORP having been found on Genesis just prior to the BOP jamming their comms, it was clear that Sarek had surmised that the body survived the impact and therefore explains his comments at Kirk's place.
We don't know exactly how much time took place between the initial discovery in the scene before Sarek arrived at Kirk's. Even if it was just hours, the timeline fits. Sarek had a vested interest in everything Genesis. His position would have afforded him high level clearance for information.
It makes sense.
Why Genenis? Because Sarek knew Spock's body was there. But the missing piece of his puzzle was the Katra. That of course was cleared up in the apartment scenes.
The real question is: Why didn't Sarek's position afford him more influence to retrieve Spock's body officially? I can only assume he presumed his request would be denied for some odd reason. It is what it is.
Sarek clearly states that he's aware of Spock's body on Genesis
At Kirk's apartment:
SAREK: Why did you leave him on Genesis! Spock trusted you. You denied him his future!
Later in the apartment:
SAREK: One alive, one not. Yet both in pain.
KIRK: What must I do?
SAREK: You must bring them to Mount Seleya, ...on Vulcan. Only there can both find peace.
KIRK: What you ask ...is difficult.
SAREK: You will find a way, Kirk. ...If you honour them both, you must.
Key words: Bring Them
Coupled with the probability that Sarek was aware of Spock's PHOTORP having been found on Genesis just prior to the BOP jamming their comms, it was clear that Sarek had surmised that the body survived the impact and therefore explains his comments at Kirk's place.
We don't know exactly how much time took place between the initial discovery in the scene before Sarek arrived at Kirk's. Even if it was just hours, the timeline fits. Sarek had a vested interest in everything Genesis. His position would have afforded him high level clearance for information.
It makes sense.
Why Genenis? Because Sarek knew Spock's body was there. But the missing piece of his puzzle was the Katra. That of course was cleared up in the apartment scenes.
The real question is: Why didn't Sarek's position afford him more influence to retrieve Spock's body officially? I can only assume he presumed his request would be denied for some odd reason. It is what it is.
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