Exactly!
RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman
- Thread starter Vivek
- Start date
Exactly!
Are you sure about that? I know of a few women who did drugs while pregnant and the babies were born with withdrawal symptoms and had to be weaned off of opiates. Great way to be welcomed to the world.
I have been around addicts in my family. My uncle was a coke head for most of my life.
My grandmother was addicted to cigarettes. She ended up getting breast cancer and after a successful surgery, she continued to smoke. She tried to hide it, but we knew and could smell it. She ultimately got lung cancer and died.
And I too have a very addictive personality. Currently I battle against shopping addiction. Yes, a man with a shopping compulsion.
I have to fight myself at stores to not buy something I see and I will lay awake most nights thinking about that item and when I can go back to buy it.
But my wife and I have done all we can to prevent that.
1. I have no credit cards at home to use when she is out.
2. I work at home and have no access to going to the store.
3. We got rid of the second car and only have the one she uses. So I am stuck at home.
4. I only go to the store with her to prevent buying what I don't need.
5. Any payments I make from my business immediately gets paid through Paypal directly into the account that my wife manages so I cannot touch it.
So far that has worked. But I still obsess about items I see here in the JY, but the lack of funds makes it impossible for me to buy stuff.
So I understand addictive traits. But I also understand that I can likely fall into a downward spiral if I went and tried gambling, drinking, drugs etc...
So I never touch the vices. I might have a social drink once in a while, but my limit is one drink.
And I never tried any drugs. I made that decision. If I tried them and got addicted, that would be 100% my fault and I would deserve no sympathy from anyone.
Sure.... Once addicted, we can give all these scientific or medical reasons why we can't stop... But the plain truth is they had a choice to never try it in the first place.
I guess that is what angers me the most in a debate like this. That addict who killed themself could be me. And I see that
Prevention is possible as I prevent it all the time. Just because someone is weak or falls prey to peer pressure to try something, I feel no sympathy for that. All through college I encountered peer pressure, especially at an art school. Drugs were everywhere... Yet I managed just fine to keep clean.
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While I certainly don't see addiction as a disease, I certainly look at it as a big game changer. The sensation it gives completely burns your brain out since it's experiencing something beyond the limits of what your body is able to give you on it's own. The bar gets set so high that the things we take for granted that do give us sensations are no longer enough. And that's what scares me. Not craving for a big sensation, but not being able to enjoy the sensations I used to. I know stories of people who have tried really, REALLY hard to break off from the addiction, but some don't succeed. I just don't think it's fair for me to say "they should have tried harder" when I have no idea what drug addiction is like.
JD
Master Member
I get frustrated at certain friends and their addictions. Whether it's cigarettes or other things... I have an Aunt dying of lung cancer and watching her family - including my mother and their mother suffer because of that addiction. Yes, it is selfish, etc. I get frustrated because I've never craved that cigarette - or drug or whatever - I've never had to give it up. I've seen both my parents quit cigarette's pretty much cold turkey as a kid - but, I'm sure there was a lot more to it than I remember.
We judge too quickly - and there's way too many folks here not giving this addiction enough credit. Too many lives have been lost or destroyed to say it's not as powerful as it really is.
It is selfish, it is self serving and it's disgusting. But, do you really think these folks would change that if they could that easily? It's easy to arm chair quarterback and judge people when you haven't stepped an inch in their shoes or know what they're going through.
We judge too quickly - and there's way too many folks here not giving this addiction enough credit. Too many lives have been lost or destroyed to say it's not as powerful as it really is.
It is selfish, it is self serving and it's disgusting. But, do you really think these folks would change that if they could that easily? It's easy to arm chair quarterback and judge people when you haven't stepped an inch in their shoes or know what they're going through.
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NakedMoleRat
Master Member
So then.....this baby was born an addict? I guess that to manage it's 'disease' it should be shot up every day.....
Complety senseless line or reasoning. Being born high is not the same a having a 'disease' towards drugs.
Nobody is saying that addiction is not a powerful thing and almost impossible odds to overcome. We know that is true. And we are not saying we feel no sympathy that they can't quit.... I for one feel no sympathy that they started the drug. That was the part they could control. Nobody holds you down and sticks a needle in your arm to get you started. Yes the addiction is real, but choosing to use drugs before you are addicted is their fault.
I believe he was clean for 23 years. I think I read that.
But that is the problem with addiction... Once it gets a hold on you, you can "get back on the wagon", but you will fight the urge and need for the rest of your life. It is that powerful. It is that reason alone that made me never even try a drug.
JD
Master Member
Science tells us that addiction is a brain disease.
Addiction has been shown to be 50% genetics and 50% poor coping skills. Abusing drugs/alcohol permanently "rewires" your brain; if you start out with a low predisposition towards abuse, using creates an urge to use grows stronger.
It is considered a disease - just like heart disease or diabetes, it is again genetics and poor lifestyle choices (ie, coping skills). Both are preventable, but both have genetic predispositions to happen.
Now can we get back on topic and talk about PSH? I wonder if they'll recast his role in the Hunger Games or will we see a rewrite?
Addiction has been shown to be 50% genetics and 50% poor coping skills. Abusing drugs/alcohol permanently "rewires" your brain; if you start out with a low predisposition towards abuse, using creates an urge to use grows stronger.
It is considered a disease - just like heart disease or diabetes, it is again genetics and poor lifestyle choices (ie, coping skills). Both are preventable, but both have genetic predispositions to happen.
Now can we get back on topic and talk about PSH? I wonder if they'll recast his role in the Hunger Games or will we see a rewrite?
Philip Seymour Hoffman Was Nearly Finished Shooting 'Hunger Games' | Variety
From Variety:
"According to Lionsgate, the majority of Hoffman’s scenes had been completed, with just seven days left to shoot on “Mockingjay — Part 2.”
Release dates (Nov. 21, 2014 and Nov. 20, 2015) for either installment will not be affected, Lionsgate said.
The “Mockingjay” shoot began in September in Atlanta and is planned to last into the spring, before shifting to Berlin and Paris for a month, ending in May. Both installments are shooting simultaneously.
Lionsgate released a statement saying, “Philip Seymour Hoffman was a singular talent and one of the most gifted actors of our generation. We’re very fortunate that he graced our ‘Hunger Games’ family. Losing him in his prime is a tragedy, and we send our deepest condolences to Philip’s family.”
Hoffman’s part in the last “Hunger Games” became more significant by the end of the film, though it still was a supporting role."
^ again, once you start the drug, everything you just stated is ALL TRUE! I do not dispute that.
Keep telling me that addiction is a disease and genetics and poor coping skills are a genetic disposition.... as if I am arguing against you. I am not!
Again I will say it... "Once you start the drugs, your genetic disposition DOES make you more susceptible to continued use and am addiction".
I agree!!! But no genetic make-up will make you more apt to try drugs. That is just a stupid choice. Science can say "if this individual tries drugs, they are more likely to become addicted due to their brain wiring". But they can't say "this individual is more likely to try drugs", unless of course they can tell from his surroundings or living location. But that would all be speculation.
My whole point is that it IS YOUR CHOICE TO TRY DRUGS. Once you make that choice, then it is out of their control.
Keep telling me that addiction is a disease and genetics and poor coping skills are a genetic disposition.... as if I am arguing against you. I am not!
Again I will say it... "Once you start the drugs, your genetic disposition DOES make you more susceptible to continued use and am addiction".
I agree!!! But no genetic make-up will make you more apt to try drugs. That is just a stupid choice. Science can say "if this individual tries drugs, they are more likely to become addicted due to their brain wiring". But they can't say "this individual is more likely to try drugs", unless of course they can tell from his surroundings or living location. But that would all be speculation.
My whole point is that it IS YOUR CHOICE TO TRY DRUGS. Once you make that choice, then it is out of their control.
Solo4114
Master Member
Much like the Paul Walker thing, I don't really see where it's my place to comment on the morality of a given celebrity's passing in most cases. In either case, you can point to something the celebrity did that they shouldn't have done.
But I just don't see that it's any of our places to point fingers at them, or declare our sympathies, or whatever. Even if we know addicts or people who've died under similar circumstances, even if we ourselves have been the victims -- directly or proximately -- of behavior like this, these people didn't do anything relating to us other than make movies we may have watched.
In the last analysis, I think it's really only appropriate to say "It's a tragedy" and leave it at that. Anything beyond that isn't my business.
But I just don't see that it's any of our places to point fingers at them, or declare our sympathies, or whatever. Even if we know addicts or people who've died under similar circumstances, even if we ourselves have been the victims -- directly or proximately -- of behavior like this, these people didn't do anything relating to us other than make movies we may have watched.
In the last analysis, I think it's really only appropriate to say "It's a tragedy" and leave it at that. Anything beyond that isn't my business.
There is a big difference between this and the Paul Walker thing though - putting other people's lives in danger. I know Walker wasn't behind the wheel, but generally speaking, driving recklessly vs a drug overdose... one thing is much easier to cast judgment on than the other, at least for me. I am no way saying "Paul Walker got what he deserved" - not at all. Like you, both instances are considered tragedies. But also in both instances, the dangers were obvious, and the people chose to take the risk. Philip Seymour Hoffman, sadly, felt his own life was worth that risk, but his alone.
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I wonder if they will dedicate one of the Mockingjay movies to him.
JD
Master Member
You can justify your lack of compassion however you'd like. I'm personally not in mourning or grieving his loss outright - I feel like we've lost a huge talent and I'm sad he's leaving a family; just as I'd be sorry for the loss of anyone.
I don't know the reason PSH used drugs, I don't know what his personal story of abuse and addiction. It could've started with a prescription or just a downward spiral that escalated from other things. Who am I to judge or be any less compassionate - I don't think I'm any better than him for not having done drugs.
...and I'm not trying to disrespect him, his friends, family or fans - or even those of us that might have or have had (or know someone that does or even had died of it) by continuing to attempt to justify a lack of compassion or humanity. There's nothing wrong with feeling sorry for a death - whether it's via a drug overdose or another way - cigarettes, food, etc or by driving too fast.
I don't know the reason PSH used drugs, I don't know what his personal story of abuse and addiction. It could've started with a prescription or just a downward spiral that escalated from other things. Who am I to judge or be any less compassionate - I don't think I'm any better than him for not having done drugs.
...and I'm not trying to disrespect him, his friends, family or fans - or even those of us that might have or have had (or know someone that does or even had died of it) by continuing to attempt to justify a lack of compassion or humanity. There's nothing wrong with feeling sorry for a death - whether it's via a drug overdose or another way - cigarettes, food, etc or by driving too fast.
Solo4114
Master Member
In terms of physical danger imposed on others? Yeah, that's true. But the psychological scars his family and loved ones will bear, especially his kids, that's another story entirely.
Regardless, it still seems...I dunno...a little too "dance on your grave" to decry the things these guys did that led to their deaths. It's a tragedy. Leave it at that. There are far more people deserving of true vitriol than these guys.
rodneyfaile
Sr Member
Not speaking directly about PSH, but if a parent can't get off drugs and be a proper parent, then dying might be the best thing they could do for their kids.
Darth Lars
Master Member
Heroin is well-known as being the hardest drug to kick. It is number 1. No other drug is as hard to quit as heroin.
Even if you have kicked an addiction, you are never truly free from it. You can stop being a drug user, but you can never stop being a drug addict.
I think I have told this story before, but that must have been many years ago:
When I was young, I used to be a regular at a café. One day, one of the older servitors was gone. The story was that eight years before, he had been a heroin user. Eight years after he had kicked the drug, by chance he bumped into his old drug dealer on the street and that reignited the old craving. That night he took his first shot in eight years. It was an overdose and he died.
He had been off the drug for eight years and then one lapse and he was dead. That's how easy it is to fall.
Even if you have kicked an addiction, you are never truly free from it. You can stop being a drug user, but you can never stop being a drug addict.
I think I have told this story before, but that must have been many years ago:
When I was young, I used to be a regular at a café. One day, one of the older servitors was gone. The story was that eight years before, he had been a heroin user. Eight years after he had kicked the drug, by chance he bumped into his old drug dealer on the street and that reignited the old craving. That night he took his first shot in eight years. It was an overdose and he died.
He had been off the drug for eight years and then one lapse and he was dead. That's how easy it is to fall.
