New Republic / Rebel Alliance Collar Device Representation and other insignia.

[Mara Jade's Father]

I want to talk about these collar device. These are the same ones seen on Lando, Madine, and other uniformed personnel of the Rebel Alliance first seen in Return of the Jedi. It was common belief these collar devices were to denote the rank of General.

However these same devices have now appeared in Ahsoka on person who is a captain of a ship with the rank of Lieutenant. No other member of the ship crew is seen wearing these devices.

So my speculation is that they are trying to use these collar devices is a similar way that US Navy personnel who or in a position of command of a ship or unit wear command afloat/ashore badges to denote their position.

This could be the case in Return of the Jedi as well or they could just have revised the meaning when the New Republic formed. One of the differences in Return of the Jedi is that members wearing these devices do not wear the standard chest rank badge. However, I do not recall seeing any rebels wearing chest rank badges in Return of the Jedi. Almost like the costumer forgot that was a thing. You could speculate that the wearing of rank badges are not a mandatory uniform item and may depend on local command requirements. Even in the New Republic, Teva Carson is not wearing his rank badge on his leather jacket when others are seen of higher and lower ranks wearing theirs.

Ok, discuss…

 

[Vagabond Elf]

I remember reading an interview that said the idea with the Rebel costumes was to show how they'd gotten equipment and uniforms from all sorts of sources, and to suggest that they didn't really have a unified logistical or rank structure. I was just poking around to try and find that interview and couldn't, so this could be a case of me importing my headcanon onto the actual production team's statements.

Still, I think it's generally accepted that the "Alliance" part of "Rebel Alliance" is because it's a collection of different groups, each with their own equipment and structure, not an homogenous body.

That being the so, I would argue that the "Standard Rebel Rank Badge" is a myth, and that the symbols we see in New Hope and Empire Strikes Back are the symbols used by whatever force the troops and kit were part of before joining the Rebellion. (It's my personal opinion that the Rebels we see in ANH are mostly Alderaanian troops or at least equipment, but there's no explicit statement to that effect. Still, it explains why the guards aboard an Alderaanian government ship are using the same gear as many of the Rebels at Yavin. The troops on Hoth may be Anderaanians in cold-weather gear (with Army rifles instead of Diplomatic Protection Service carbines) or they may be using gear from another military force that has the same or similar insignia, much like Canada, Australia, and the United Kingdom all have almost the same rank insignia. This would also help explain some of the oddities in the ESB rank badges.)

If Wookiepedia is to be trusted, the so-called "Rebel Fleet Trooper" doesn't appear in ROTJ. Other than the pilots' flight suits - which don't have rank insignia on them in ANH either - do any of the Rebel costumes from ANH or ESB re-appear in ROTJ? If not, then you don't need any complicated explaination about the rank badges; it is enough to note that groups in ROTJ use different insignia than the groups in ANH and ESB, and have done with it.

Obviously the New Republic has chosen to adopt the Yavin-style rank insignia, but that needn't have any bearing on the ROTJ.

Moving on to the actual pin in question, I agree that one explanation is that it's an "Officer Commanding" marker. If so, perhaps that was it's meaning back in ROTJ or perhaps the New Republic has repurposed a symbol for a new meaning. Another explanation is that it's a branch-of-service or arm-of-service marker. Again, I doubt the Rebellion had any kind of standardization on that, but perhaps whatever military force Madine's uniform originated from used it for that purpose. (That raises the possibility that the Rebellion simply didn't have a rank symbol for "General" and just gave that title to mean "person in charge of an independently operating force.") Keep in mind that the declaration that the collar symbol means "General" is from West End Games, and while the SWRPG remains one of my favourites there's an awful lot of details it either overlooks or outright changes from what we see on screen.

One detail worth remembering is that in the Mandoverse time-frame, it's clear the NR doesn't have fully standardised equipment. Pilots, at least in the rim, are flying old, beat-up fighters and wearing a mish-mash of kit. I haven't seen the Ahsoka episodes yet, but maybe it's just that the Lieutenant in question is wearing a legacy uniform because the new, official "New Republic" uniforms haven't trickled down to wherever he's posted, and he's just stuck the new official rank badge on his old "West Riding Space Marines" uniform.

Pending further evidence I'm open to it being the OC mark on a space vessel but I don't thing that fits perfectly with the ROTJ use. My current favourite explanation is that it's not an NR insignia at all, and that character is a Rebel veteran who wears the collar tabs as a legacy/tribute to his time in the Rebellion. If you've read the Hammer's Slammers books, in the stories set after the Slammers mercenary group has taken over the world of Friesland the members of the Army who also served in the Slammers wear a special pin, and don't bother with most of the other things they can wear. I like the idea that this collar tab in Ahsoka is something like that.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

Vagabond Elf, I think I pretty much agree with most, if not all of what you say. I’ve always felt like the Rebellion was run on whatever they got ahold of, it was a mix of the various forces that united and simply any supplies, equipment, uniforms that might have been donated to the cause. I think a great example is how pilot gear of Y-wing differs in A New Hope and Return of the Jedi. I always felt that pilot gear was not set by craft but by what gear was available, or where the personnel was sourced from and the gear they were using at the time.

A lot of times when I am talking about topics like this, I walk the line between the fictional meaning and wondering the behind the scenes reason of why something was developed The way it was.

I also know that originalily instead of ranks, these naval personnel on the transport were going to wear the Return of the Jedi chest ID badge and not the rank. I guess they originally wanted to duplicate the exact look but then decided classic rank pins would be more consistent to how they were trying to portray New Republic troops.

 

[KitSmasher]

Perhaps it could just mean "commanding officer". Madine was the commander of the Rebellion's military.
Lando is in command of the air assault on Death Star II (Ackbar is Fleet commander)
Lieutenant Hayle is commanding officer of that cruiser. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's all just speculation. I am willing to bet it was about the look and nobody was really trying to make it make sense.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

Here are replicas from my collection. I got these from Corellianexports about 20 years ago.

 

[Vagabond Elf]

Having now seen the episodes - I'm going to go a little controversial and suggest that, at least for the New Republic era, two blue dots arranged vertically doesn't mean "Lieutenant." It just doesn't feel like a high enough rank for the OC of a ship that large. And if I'm being honest, I'm not 100% certain it meant "Lieutenant" in the original trilogy - off the top of my head, I can't recall any Rebel being addressed as "Lieutenant" in the movies, so our "knowledge" that it means what it means almost certainly comes from WEG assigning meaning to it in their Rebel Alliance Sourcebook.

Consider, as a counter-example, Commonwealth army rank insignia. 1 pip is 2LT, 2 pips is LT, 3 pips is CPT, and then it resets to 1 Crown is MJR, Crown + Pip is LCOL, Crown + 2 Pips is COL.

So I can imagine a setup where 1 red is 2LT/Ensign, 1 blue is 1LT/Sub-Lieutenant, 2 red is CPT/Lieutenant, 2 blue is MJR/Lieutenant-Commander, and so on up to 5 red is General/Admiral.

Of course, the only thing that can really be done to test this is to carefully go through all the movies and TV shows, note down what rank badge a character has, and what they are addressed as. Outside information such as comics, novels, Wookiepedia, etc, aren't really useful to test this to my satisfaction, especially if they post-date the WEG sourcebook. Granted, what I suspect I'd find is that the system isn't consistent.

But I do think it's legit to assume that there may have been a reset to the meanings when the Alliance became the New Republic and all the kit and organization had to start getting standardized.

Anyway, to loop back on point I'm also going to say that I don't think the NR is using the collar tabs the same way whatever military became that part of the Rebellion did, and that at this point it either means "collar tabs plus chest pips denotes rank" or "collar tabs denote some position," the most obvious being Officer Commanding of an independent vessel.

 

[Corellianexports]

I always thought it was interesting that although Han Solo was a General, he never wore a rank badge nor the pips/collar devices.
Also, even though Princess Leia wore the rank badge, she never wore the pips/collar devices. I always thought that they forgot to give them to her, but maybe since she was royalty, she didn't need them:

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

I always thought it was interesting that although Han Solo was a General, he never wore a rank badge nor the pips/collar devices.
Also, even though Princess Leia wore the rank badge, she never wore the pips/collar devices. I always thought that they forgot to give them to her, but maybe since she was royalty, she didn't need them:

View attachment 1732909

I never considered those badges as ranks, I always figured they were more like security and/or ID devices. Similar to the ones wore in The Empire Strikes Back with squares, and that of other type seen like Andor’s in R1, and Han’s in Solo. In The Empire Strikes Back, they wear the badges and rank. Same with Andor in R1.

Strange that Leia wears her rotj badge on the other side than everyone else.

 

[TJJohn12]

Has the original found object ever been identified? Looks like a direct usage of a model kit part to me.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

Has the original found object ever been identified? Looks like a direct usage of a model kit part to me.

I have to believe the answer yes as I believe that Corellianexports used the actual parts to make his replicas 20 years ago. I don’t know exactly what part it was but maybe he can tell you.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

Perhaps it could just mean "commanding officer". Madine was the commander of the Rebellion's military.
Lando is in command of the air assault on Death Star II (Ackbar is Fleet commander)
Lieutenant Hayle is commanding officer of that cruiser. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's all just speculation. I am willing to bet it was about the look and nobody was really trying to make it make sense.

That is what I was hitting at when I talk about positions of command and such devices the navy uses. In the Navy, you can have officers, even at the rank of commander who have positions where they are considered commanding officers but the position does not warrant such an insignia.

But yes. I am with you that the people wearing the collar devices could be given specific command positions and therefore wear the devices.

Here you can see Navy Lieutenant receiving his command pin as he assumes command of Coastal Riverine Squadron Three Alpha Company, Crew 2.

Lieutenant Assumes Command in New Position in Coastal Riverine Force

Lt. Andrew Bergstrom became the Navy’s first officer to assume command of one of the Coastal Riverine Force’s new Mark VI patrol boat command-at-sea billets in a ceremony today onboard Naval Amphibious Base Coronado.

www.dvidshub.net

 

[Corellianexports]

I never considered those badges as ranks, I always figured they were more like security and/or ID devices. Similar to the ones wore in The Empire Strikes Back with squares, and that of other type seen like Andor’s in R1, and Han’s in Solo. In The Empire Strikes Back, they wear the badges and rank. Same with Andor in R1.

Strange that Leia wears her rotj badge on the other side than everyone else.

Actually, when I think about the more modern-day military uniforms, there is an ID badge that is worn with pips on the shoulder or collar to indicate rank, so that does make more sense than a "rank badge".

 

[Corellianexports]

Has the original found object ever been identified? Looks like a direct usage of a model kit part to me.

The pips/collar devices have been identified as engine parts from an Airfix 1/24th scale Harrier Jet aircraft.
The round parts on the ID badge have been identified as parts from a German tank vehicle. I don't remember which one. Unfortunately, the rest of the parts have remained unidentified, so if someone can figure out which model kit they came from, please post a reply with some info.

Something interesting to note about the badges and ranks used in both ESB and ROTJ is that the either the costume or art department at Lucasfilm decided to rummage through the model kits (probably because there were thousands of left over parts) used to build the Studio Scale models in all of the films. These included the V8 Engine Model Kit from Revell, along with several kits made by Airfix. They even went so far as to pillage parts from actual Star Wars model kits (i.e. Darth Vader's Advanced TIE) for the Boushh costume, as well as the Harrier Jet model kit parts used for the officer pips.

 

[thawn_es]

The pips/collar devices have been identified as engine parts from an Airfix 1/24th scale Harrier Jet aircraft.
The round parts on the ID badge have been identified as parts from a German tank vehicle. I don't remember which one. Unfortunately, the rest of the parts have remained unidentified, so if someone can figure out which model kit they came from, please post a reply with some info.

Something interesting to note about the badges and ranks used in both ESB and ROTJ is that the either the costume or art department at Lucasfilm decided to rummage through the model kits (probably because there were thousands of left over parts) used to build the Studio Scale models in all of the films. These included the V8 Engine Model Kit from Revell, along with several kits made by Airfix. They even went so far as to pillage parts from actual Star Wars model kits (i.e. Darth Vader's Advanced TIE) for the Boushh costume, as well as the Harrier Jet model kit parts used for the officer pips.

Tamiya 1:35 Churchill crocodile tank

 

[Corellianexports]

Speaking of pips/collar ranks, I recently noticed that Colonel Flag from MASH wore an intelligence pin on his collar in several episodes:

I was a little surprised that I hadn't seen it before. This is the same pin used on the original Battlestar Galactica uniforms and also shows up on some of the uniforms used in Buck Rogers.

 

[Gee2]

That is what I was hitting at when I talk about positions of command and such devices the navy uses. In the Navy, you can have officers, even at the rank of commander who have positions where they are considered commanding officers but the position does not warrant such an insignia.

But yes. I am with you that the people wearing the collar devices could be given specific command positions and therefore wear the devices.


View attachment 1733130
Here you can see Navy Lieutenant receiving his command pin as he assumes command of Coastal Riverine Squadron Three Alpha Company, Crew 2.

Lieutenant Assumes Command in New Position in Coastal Riverine Force

Lt. Andrew Bergstrom became the Navy’s first officer to assume command of one of the Coastal Riverine Force’s new Mark VI patrol boat command-at-sea billets in a ceremony today onboard Naval Amphibious Base Coronado.

www.dvidshub.net

Original BSG used the Command Ashore pin for Admiral Caine, similar to using the Army Intelligence Corp. pins for Colonial Warriors, etc. So I always thought they were modded Army Engineer Corp. pins that were used for the Rebellion officers (pre-4K of course) and I never dug into it.

But what about these sleeve deals...

 

[Vagabond Elf]

Speaking of pips/collar ranks, I recently noticed that Colonel Flag from MASH wore an intelligence pin on his collar in several episodes:

View attachment 1733461

I was a little surprised that I hadn't seen it before. This is the same pin used on the original Battlestar Galactica uniforms and also shows up on some of the uniforms used in Buck Rogers.

For all that it was a comedy, M*A*S*H was remarkably good at accurately depicting the military equipment. At least within budget; the helicopters are wrong for the time period and mission, but I suspect getting the correct helos would have cost more for one episode than the entire 13 year run of the show.

And I agree that the devices on the ROTJ chests aren't insignia of any kind. I've always assumed they were some sort of com device; yes, I know Han pulls out the little cylinder one, but that could either be reflex in a high-stress situation, or the chest mounted thing is a repeater or encoder.

Although the idea that they're some kind of security access badge appeals as well.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

I've always assumed they were some sort of com device; yes, I know Han pulls out the little cylinder one, but that could either be reflex in a high-stress situation, or the chest mounted thing is a repeater or encoder.

I have never seen anything to make me believe that chest badges are comm badges. Everything seems to be some sort of hand held comlink or a glove mounted comlink.

 

[Gee2]

Maybe personal locators?

 

[KitSmasher]

Need some help with some part IDs...

Hey guys, I need some help ID'ing some model parts, and I know you guys can help- this is right up your alley... I'm looking to ID the parts on this badge from Return of the Jedi worn by the Alliance officers. Lando, Leia and General Madine have one, as well as a lot of background. Here is...

www.therpf.com