New Doctor Who Series Discussion *Spoilers*

Caught it today on the DVR and can't believe I wasted time sitting through another one of these things. I feel like some abused wife with Stockholm syndrome, hoping that this'll be better than before; that this is just some rough patch. Nope. Same crap as before; just with another face.
 
I found Capaldi interesting, and I'm curious to see a more mature and perhaps a bit more "no nonsense" Doctor, but for an introduction episode I found it really bland. It did nothing for me at all. Even if I wasn't fond of Smith at first, his intro episode was miles ahead IMO.
 
She was wearing a ring but we did not get to see the top of it. they made references to other episodes. I would speculate it was the rani too.
I hope the stories get much better this season. I thought this first episode was just an ok one with some cool touches thrown in to keep fans interested.
I think capaldi will do just fine as the doctor as he is a fan and appears to have some input on the character.
 
I loved it. Capaldi is going to be a fantastic Doctor. Looks like a mixture of Pertwee and Baker with some added Eccleston. He's funny and seriousand he has attack eyebrows. Not sure what was up with the silly sound effects. The new TARDIS interior is awesome. Very Victorian. Reminds me of the 7th Doctors with the armchair. Looking forward to the rest of the series!
 
Just joined here as I'm wanting to get into costume making so hope I don't upset anyone with this but just watched Dr Who and thought it was dreadful in just about every way! Capaldi isn't the right sort to play the Dr, apart from the age he's missing that spark the last couple have had. But am I on my own in thinking the acting have gone down hill and that fight scene towards the end was awfully directed, looked like a a load of very bad reenactors without a clue as to what they were supposed to be doing! Even the CGI was a bit ropy! I've watch the show here in the UK since the mighty Tom Baker was the Dr and I feel rather let down by the new show and sadly can see it getting canned if they don't improve it a lot. I know there was a lot in there for the real Dr Who aficionado but they aren't the shows core audience, they want a laugh and a scifi romp and this just doesn't fit the bill :(
 
I too, felt that it was a pretty shoddy episode. Character s aside, it felt poorly directed and more low budget than recent seasons. Muddles, silly, and unclear
 
LOVED IT.

I thought it was a terrific blend of the old manic energy, and a new more adult, grounded approach to the character. My girlfriend and I watched Day of the Doctor immediately before it (rather than Time of the Doctor, which I thought was weak, really), and there's an underlying theme of "Time to grow up." When the Doctor assumes the faces of younger men, it's more sort of shirking responsibility. When he puts on the face of older men, at least this time, it may be to assume responsibility. I LOVED the "I'm not your boyfriend" line. The flirtatious/boyfriend Doctor thing has been...fine...but it's been overdone and I'm not looking for yet another dreamy asexual boyfriend figure to play against the eye-candy female companion. But, I also respected that the line was followed by "I didn't say the mistake was yours."

I like the ambiguity about the Doctor's morality, like when he'll kill and when he won't. I still think he won't in most cases (again, see Day of the Doctor for more on that), but I think he COULD if pushed to it by circumstances. But I also sense that it's the kind of thing where, if he did, it'd be with a more adult view of morality, like, "Yes, I killed him. It's wrong of me that I did it, but I had to do it. I would do it again if I had to, but I'd hope I wouldn't. And I'll live with the guilt either way."

I appreciated how...differently Clara was played in this. Particularly since the end of Season 7, I think they've taken steps to make Clara a little less...I dunno...magical, and a little more grounded. She needed that, because otherwise she was kinda just a manic pixie dream girl (MPDG) for the Doctor, and I find that approach to be a bit tired as well. I like that they're showing her to be a bit less...I dunno... "perfect," too. Like, particularly in her early appearances, she seemed SO self-assured and SO in control that it kind of rang false. I don't mind a powerful companion. I don't mind a capable companion. To the contrary, I prefer it. But I do mind a "super" companion, who can "do it all" and it seemed at times like Clara was headed that way. This time around, she seemed to be a bit at a loss for what to do...but still pulled through thanks to a more grounded, believable kind of grit and determination. Much preferable to her previous approach. And I'm liking where, I think, we'll see it going with her, in terms of her interactions with the Doctor. More of a throwback to the old series, where the Doctor was more of a father figure (or a mad uncle, I guess) than a boyfriend.

The one thing I'm not so sure about is the sort of Moffatean "hook" for the season, which is the "heaven" concept and the female figure referring to the Doctor as "my boyfriend." Moffat's style with stuff like this always seems to be pretty slapdash-we'll-figure-it-out-later, rather than carefully planned out. He doesn't allow sufficient time for his executions and doesn't develop his lead-ins effectively, so that when it all wraps up you say "Ohhhh, yeah, that makes sense." Instead, you get good emotional resolutions, but the stories often don't "make sense" except via some hand-waive explanation usually involving "wibbly wobbly timey-wimey." Hopefully the other changes in the series will ground his storytelling techniques as well, because he does have the capacity to be one of the best writers.
 
Finally watched the new episode. Meh. :(

Capaldi was great but a lot of things in the episode REALLY didn't work for me.

First, which really should be a no brainer, there was a T-Rex BIGGER THAN THE ELIZABETH TOWER which was able to swallow the TARDIS whole. Ugh. Took me right out of it. The Elizabeth Tower (Big Ben) is approximately 24 times the hight of a full grown T-Rex. You should know that in grade school.

Second, Vastra & crew. Don't like 'em. Like River they were good in their first appearance and become more and more grating with each consecutive one. Strax remains mildly amusing but holy crap Vastra herself is a bitch in this episode.

Which reminds me, apparently sexism is okay now as long as it's towards men. I particularly appreciated when Jenny was offended thinking that Vastra had called people monkeys but was okay when she clarified that only men are monkeys. I challenge someone to write that about women and see if it flies. Quite frankly I was ashamed to hear that. Especially watching with my two sons.

The rest of the episode was alright, but felt pretty blah. Capaldi, when let loose to actually act, was quite good. I'm looking forward to seeing him develop the character. I think having Matt Smith tag along took away from things though. Time to move on. If I recall, this is the first time an exiting Doctor has crashed the introduction of the new one.

Anyhow. Hope to see less of Vastra, looking forward to more Capaldi, and next time a CG guy wants to make a dinosaur for ******'s sake please don't scale them by 2400%.
 
Strax looked fine to me, and although the T-Rex wasn't high art it was good enough I think. I take CG with a grain of salt in Doctor Who, I don't expect it to always be top notch so that doesn't bother me. A complete disregard for anything remotely sized properly on the other hand... :lol
 
Finally watched the new episode. Meh. :(

Capaldi was great but a lot of things in the episode REALLY didn't work for me.

First, which really should be a no brainer, there was a T-Rex BIGGER THAN THE ELIZABETH TOWER which was able to swallow the TARDIS whole. Ugh. Took me right out of it. The Elizabeth Tower (Big Ben) is approximately 24 times the hight of a full grown T-Rex. You should know that in grade school.

Agreed, and I was a bit disappointed that they never really addressed this. I've grown numb to this kind of Moffatean casual disregard for "Wait, hang on. That doesn't make sense" aspects. It's part of his style. An annoying part, but it's like asking Jon Nathan-Turner to have good taste for costumes.

Second, Vastra & crew. Don't like 'em. Like River they were good in their first appearance and become more and more grating with each consecutive one. Strax remains mildly amusing but holy crap Vastra herself is a bitch in this episode.

See, I thought they were a necessary evil in this episode. I agree that they, like River, get a bit kitschy after a while, partuclarly the whole "THEY'RE MARRIED. AND LESBIANS!!" bit. I mean, ok, we get it. Nobody cares at this point. And girl-on-girl kisses stopped being racy some time in the late 90s.

That said, the first 1-3 episodes after a regeneration are always weird. You're still fleshing out the new Doctor's character (and often borrowing bits from the old one -- as Capaldi did here). I think, therefore, it's helpful to have not merely one familiar face, but a group of familiar faces to surround the Doctor. You may not like this particular group, but I don't think there are too many from the Moffat era who'll be much better. For that matter, you could make the same argument for the 10th Doctor's regeneration, where he was surrounded by Rose and her friends and family. They could get annoying too (although they also had good moments). By contrast, the "odd" numbered regenerations (9 and 11) were very disorienting, because you not only had a new Doctor, but also had a new companion. So, as between the two, I think I prefer the "familiar faces" approach.

Which reminds me, apparently sexism is okay now as long as it's towards men. I particularly appreciated when Jenny was offended thinking that Vastra had called people monkeys but was okay when she clarified that only men are monkeys. I challenge someone to write that about women and see if it flies. Quite frankly I was ashamed to hear that. Especially watching with my two sons.

I see what you're saying, but...eh, it was fairly mild. There's plenty of sexism/objectification going the other way, too, even in this episode (see also "Oooooooh....lesbian kiss!"). That said, I think the sort of "Straight guys are lame" approach has been going on for pretty much the entirety of the new run. The straight guys like Mickey and Rory have only occasionally been allowed to be heroic and, even, competent. Only sexually ambiguous guys like Jack Harkness and the (mostly) asexual Doctor is allowed to be a hero. That's been true for a while now, though. I think it's a heavy-handed approach and could be modulated, but there've been PLENTY of criticisms about the way the show has portrayed women in the Moffat era, and I think they tend to be valid. Moffat's run has just been a mixed bag. An entertaining one, on the whole, but not without its faults. I'm hoping we'll see some changes down the road, like, an actually competent straight male companion for a change, instead of a bumbling fool.

The rest of the episode was alright, but felt pretty blah. Capaldi, when let loose to actually act, was quite good. I'm looking forward to seeing him develop the character. I think having Matt Smith tag along took away from things though. Time to move on. If I recall, this is the first time an exiting Doctor has crashed the introduction of the new one.

Yeah, I think you're right. Matt Smith's appearance, though, was necessary from a demographic viewpoint. Doctor Who has, since 10's run, become EXTREMELY popular with young women, no doubt in part due to the dashing appearance of the Doctor, and the lovey-dovey companion that tags along with him. The switch to Capaldi is going to be REALLY jarring for that demographic. A female friend of mine who only recently got into the show was actually saying "I don't like the new guy. I need some cute there to hold my attention." I think she's probably representative of a decent portion of the demographic. Having Matt Smith show up, and the scene that followed it, again provides a degree of grounding that allows the show to dovetail from one era to another, rather than just doing a hard shift that throws people off completely.

Anyhow. Hope to see less of Vastra, looking forward to more Capaldi, and next time a CG guy wants to make a dinosaur for ******'s sake please don't scale them by 2400%.

I expect we won't see Vastra for a little while. I think that this series will be a "transitional" one as Capaldi makes the part more and more his own, and the writers learn how to write for him and to his strengths. Those strengths seem to be a degree of gravitas that wasn't entirely possible with Matt Smith, due to his age. I'm also hoping for a bit more...hmm...hardness and distance from the Doctor. There'll still be aspects of "The lonely god," but I think he needs to be a bit inscrutable for Clara and/or whoever else joins him.
 
(rather than Time of the Doctor, which I thought was weak, really)

THANK YOU! Almost everyone else I know who watches DW loved that episode, and I hated it for so many reasons, that it's a) by far my most hated episode of all 50 years (of what I've seen, which is 1, 2, most of 3, parts of 4, and a mishmash of 5-7, for classic), and b) the only episode that I refuse to watch again, even if you offered me money for it.
 
The only thing I can think of is that neither of you has seen the Gunfighters, or if you have, you've blocked it from your memories. Because, in my opinion, that is hands-down the WORST episode of Doctor Who that's available on DVD. ;)

That said, I didn't hate Time of the Doctor, I just thought it was weak. It struck me as -- in typical Moffat fashion -- very thrown together and hasty, offering good emotions at the cost of coherent storytelling. All that said, it was far from the worst I've seen in Doctor Who...but I've watched almost every DVD available in the series.
 
See, I thought they were a necessary evil in this episode. I agree that they, like River, get a bit kitschy after a while, partuclarly the whole "THEY'RE MARRIED. AND LESBIANS!!" bit. I mean, ok, we get it. Nobody cares at this point. And girl-on-girl kisses stopped being racy some time in the late 90s.

That said, the first 1-3 episodes after a regeneration are always weird. You're still fleshing out the new Doctor's character (and often borrowing bits from the old one -- as Capaldi did here). I think, therefore, it's helpful to have not merely one familiar face, but a group of familiar faces to surround the Doctor. You may not like this particular group, but I don't think there are too many from the Moffat era who'll be much better. For that matter, you could make the same argument for the 10th Doctor's regeneration, where he was surrounded by Rose and her friends and family. They could get annoying too (although they also had good moments). By contrast, the "odd" numbered regenerations (9 and 11) were very disorienting, because you not only had a new Doctor, but also had a new companion. So, as between the two, I think I prefer the "familiar faces" approach.

I hear ya, and I guess I agree. Although I liked the disorientation of Smith's first episode because it allowed the focus to be on the Doctor and not the sideshow. Totally appreciate the technique though.


I see what you're saying, but...eh, it was fairly mild. There's plenty of sexism/objectification going the other way, too, even in this episode (see also "Oooooooh....lesbian kiss!"). That said, I think the sort of "Straight guys are lame" approach has been going on for pretty much the entirety of the new run. The straight guys like Mickey and Rory have only occasionally been allowed to be heroic and, even, competent. Only sexually ambiguous guys like Jack Harkness and the (mostly) asexual Doctor is allowed to be a hero. That's been true for a while now, though. I think it's a heavy-handed approach and could be modulated, but there've been PLENTY of criticisms about the way the show has portrayed women in the Moffat era, and I think they tend to be valid. Moffat's run has just been a mixed bag. An entertaining one, on the whole, but not without its faults. I'm hoping we'll see some changes down the road, like, an actually competent straight male companion for a change, instead of a bumbling fool.

For how preachy Doctor Who seems to have gotten though it was a direct slap in the face. Add to it that every other guy in the episode was a moron (even the guy that got harvested had a woman roll her eyes at his idiocy right before it happened) and it just shows how embarrassing it's become. The way women have been portrayed, I don't know, I can see both sides. First, the only strong characters aside from the Doctor are all women, even to the point that some of them keep having to try and prove that they're better than him 'cause you know... "Men" :facepalm. Whereas when a woman is treated poorly it's usually to show what a jerk the man is and she generally ends up getting even in some way.

That said I totally agree that this episode's objectification of Jenny and Clara was over the top. Vestra is apparently not only a bitch but a hell of a horny one with a wandering eye. Ugh. No problem with them as a couple, no problem even with the kiss. But come on, this is a show a watch with my kids, keep sex out of it. Posing in a bustier simply for Vestra's pleasure while she works?

Yeah, I think you're right. Matt Smith's appearance, though, was necessary from a demographic viewpoint. Doctor Who has, since 10's run, become EXTREMELY popular with young women, no doubt in part due to the dashing appearance of the Doctor, and the lovey-dovey companion that tags along with him. The switch to Capaldi is going to be REALLY jarring for that demographic. A female friend of mine who only recently got into the show was actually saying "I don't like the new guy. I need some cute there to hold my attention." I think she's probably representative of a decent portion of the demographic. Having Matt Smith show up, and the scene that followed it, again provides a degree of grounding that allows the show to dovetail from one era to another, rather than just doing a hard shift that throws people off completely.

I understand why they did it, but I absolutely hate this catering to an audience that wasn't there for your genuine product to begin with.

I expect we won't see Vastra for a little while. I think that this series will be a "transitional" one as Capaldi makes the part more and more his own, and the writers learn how to write for him and to his strengths. Those strengths seem to be a degree of gravitas that wasn't entirely possible with Matt Smith, due to his age. I'm also hoping for a bit more...hmm...hardness and distance from the Doctor. There'll still be aspects of "The lonely god," but I think he needs to be a bit inscrutable for Clara and/or whoever else joins him.

Hope you're right!

- - - Updated - - -

I found Time of the Doctor to be pretty damn lame. But worst ever? I'm with Dan, lots out there to choose from! :lol

I've seen every existing episode. There are some stinkers.
 
How about just worst since it came back, I only really started watching from the 4th Doctor, and I stopped watching when they put Buck Rogers on the other side.
 
I wanted to say something right of the bat about the TRex, but was curious to see if anyone would notice. My grandmother used to take me to a museum when I was like 5 and I remember it still. IIRC, the height was about 20 feet give or take. Not sure how tall big ben is, but it's a lot more than 20' tall :)

Unless it was a space TRex, which they didn't say. FWIW, the Tardis is bigger than the whole head of a TRex, so couldn't figure out how it'd come out of the mouth.

Quality wasn't that great either, you're right. The ones in Dinosaurs on a Spaceship were much better.

I'm interested to see how capaldi develops. I did see something recently with Moffatt saying he writes the first 2-3 episodes pretty much in the style of the previous doctor until he and the new doctor establish the new character. As for the cameo, meh, didn't bug me. I don't think Matt knew it'd happen that way either. Looks very much like it was shot during the xmas special and wound up on the cutting room floor and was just edited back in. It's the type of thing that makes me think they're aiming at newer audiences. Much like the US opening featuring Amy over the doctor. Trying to establish a baseline for new viewers. From that POV, the call makes sense because they're letting the newer viewer know that it's still the actual doctor, but a new incarnation that will take time for them to get used to. Not saying it's right or wrong, mind you, but from a certain POV..... :)
 
It was only ever referred to as a 'giant dinosaur', presumably so they could fudge any inaccuracies or artistic licence..
Even so, at that size, with the lower atmospheric oxygen levels of the 'modern' era, combined with the Victorian smog... it should have had a hard time breathing, even if t was just standing there doing nothing (until it caught fire)
 
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