Jurassic Park Cryocan scam???
- Thread starter TomVDJ
- Start date
justy
Well-Known Member
I'm half tempted to order one myself just as an experiment. Suspicious but definitely has me curious though hah.
JiminSTLouis
Sr Member
“Hey… it isn’t bad for the money” isn’t the point. They’re not shipping what they’re advertising, but instead a cheap plastic POS. On top of that, they’re stealing pictures and videos from one of our members. I hope NO MEMBER orders this from these crooks.
Simple, “ A fool and his money……I don't know why some of our members would continue to buy those...I know that some got it for free; but others have given their money to these scammersWHY?
Starganderfish
Active Member
For a tenth of the price of a metal one from Paragon they ARE objectively “not bad for the money” Not everyone wants or can pay $3-400 for a metal Replica and a lot of the 3d printed ones on Etsy cost more than this and are usually unfinished and of equally mediocre quality. These are a decent starting point for a DIY custom.
As for stealing stuff, if anyone around here, aside from Paragon, has a licence I’d be shocked.
If we’re quoting parables:
People In Glass Houses… Do as I say and not as I do…
I’ve ordered a Paragon can because I can afford one but I’ve bought other cheap stuff off Aliexpress and TaoBao before and been pleasantly surprised. Those who have bought this have revealed that it IS a valid cheap alternative for those looking for something a little looser. We really shouldn’t yuck their yum.
As for stealing stuff, if anyone around here, aside from Paragon, has a licence I’d be shocked.
If we’re quoting parables:
People In Glass Houses… Do as I say and not as I do…
I’ve ordered a Paragon can because I can afford one but I’ve bought other cheap stuff off Aliexpress and TaoBao before and been pleasantly surprised. Those who have bought this have revealed that it IS a valid cheap alternative for those looking for something a little looser. We really shouldn’t yuck their yum.
JiminSTLouis
Sr Member
But they advertise a metal cryocan that pops up and even dispenses foam using someone else’s pictures and video. That’s false advertisement and taking advantage of people. If they advertised a cheaper plastic alternative, that would be another story.
Starganderfish
Active Member
That’s buying from China. That’s how it works.
Does it suck? Yep
Is complaining here gonna change anything? Nope
Does the item people get when they buy match what they advertise? Nope
Is it still comparatively decent for the price? Yep
Complaints here are veering widely between “it’s cheap and awful” to “it’s not what they advertise” to “they stole someone’s picture” to “members have a moral obligation to not buy this piece of illegal unlicensed work and should only buy the illegal unlicensed work from the people WE approve” and stopping at a dozen points in between.
Ultimately it’s $46 for a surprisingly decent plastic replica that can easily be turned into something respectable without too much effort. Multiple people have bought it and verified as much now.
Informed people can buy this knowing what they’ll get.
Anyone who buys this expecting to get something else needs to think about what they’re doing. I rank them right alongside people who accept “the free cruise from that nice man on the phone” or folks who “help that poor Nigerian Prince with his difficult financial situation”.
You should see some of the crap I’ve bought off Aliexpress, pretty much knowing it was going to be a disaster. I don’t rage at the iniquity of criminal Asian shopkeepers, I shrug, accept that I was taking a gamble and this time it didn’t pay off. I’ve also bought some absolutely banging replicas from Aliexpress that I genuinely don’t know how they made them for such a low price. When you plays the game, you celebrates the wins and you accepts the losses. If you can’t do that, the game ain’t for you.
scarf man
Master Member
We do have a moral/ethical code here.
We support artists. We decry scammers, thieves, trolls, and opportunists.
If you come here for knowledge, share openly, respect other members, you earn your share of the community’s respect and protection.
This scammer sending something “not bad for the price” is not the point imo.
Knockoff items do have victims, firstly among them is yourself if you give in to the allure of buying them.
You might ask yourself “well isn’t replicating props for myself just making knockoffs?” it’s not.
You need to have been here longer than a hot minute to get that it’s a culture as much as it’s a hobby.
I‘m speaking rhetorically so not directed at anyone in particular, just seemed to be needed in this thread.
We support artists. We decry scammers, thieves, trolls, and opportunists.
If you come here for knowledge, share openly, respect other members, you earn your share of the community’s respect and protection.
This scammer sending something “not bad for the price” is not the point imo.
Knockoff items do have victims, firstly among them is yourself if you give in to the allure of buying them.
You might ask yourself “well isn’t replicating props for myself just making knockoffs?” it’s not.
You need to have been here longer than a hot minute to get that it’s a culture as much as it’s a hobby.
I‘m speaking rhetorically so not directed at anyone in particular, just seemed to be needed in this thread.
Starganderfish
Active Member
Heh. Yeah I confess that I may have gotten a little off track and that the deceptive information in the listing IS a problem, and IS NOT great. But it's also completely par for the course for purchasing from China and anyone who shops from these sources should already be well aware of that.
However, several people have now painted this prop as somehow morally bad or wrong, in and of itself, totally aside from the listing details.
A couple of clarifications though:
“We support artists” - is there any indication that the person who created this is not an artist? AFAIK, no one’s suggested the design or source is stolen from a specific designer, aside from the fact that almost everyone is using unlicensed and therefore technically stolen IP. Do we "support artists" or do we only "support artists in our club"?
“We decry scammers, thieves and opportunists” - the legally authorised holders of licenses for many products almost certainly view the people selling products on these boards as fitting well within those terms.
“Ask yourself “well isn’t replicating props for myself just making knockoffs?” it’s not.” - of course it’s not. I’m not selling illegal and unlicensed props for personal profit. Everyone on here who is selling their props without a license? Yep. They're making knockoffs. That's how it works. The key thing that moves it into KO territory is "making money"
"Knockoff items do have victims" - yep. Sometimes those victims are IP holders, original creative artists, or media and publishing companies.
If we're asking ourselves questions, it might be worth asking ourselves how sellers on theRPF are viewed by the companies like Paragon who spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, thousands of man-hours and countless billable legal hours negotiating official licenses. Pretty sure that to them, the sellers in here are at the least "opportunists", if not outright "thieves".
And just to be clear, I’ve been in 3d printing groups, Transformers and Gundam groups, collectible's forums and design groups for decades. I am well aware of the arguments and the intellectual contortions that many undertake to justify their positions. My own justification is that I want these props for myself and I am willing to accept the grey (if not outright black) morality of these groups to get those things. I don’t pretend that what I am doing is somehow “right” or “moral”. To me, the hypocrisy doesn’t lie in the making, selling or buying of these props (doing so is pretty clearly "wrong"), the hypocrisy is in the double standards we use to justify it.
Market forces mean that people will step up to fill demand and many won’t be legitimate. That’s going to happen anyway, but we shouldn’t pretend any of it is legal or moral.
And to be clear, I’m not trying to stir trouble or flame people, I just genuinely enjoy these moral quagmires and like discussing them.
I like to imagine a fictional conversation putting these ideas into a different sphere:
"Officer, Officer, you have to help me! I'm a fine upstanding and hard-working car thief. I spent weeks planning out the perfect heist, I staked out the vehicle and mapped the owner's movements over days. I purchased specialised lock-picking equipment and spent hours teaching myself the skills to bypass electronic security systems. I was careful to respect the cops, pay my bribes and obey the rules of my local organised crime cartel. I had just completed the perfect heist and was driving the car to my chop-shop, when this rude and unprofessional hoodlum, jumped into the car at the traffic lights and carjacked me!! He stole the car from me!! You have to do something!!"
From what I can see, the fundamental basis for a lot of these "my stuff is good, yours is bad" arguments seems to come down to "I put in a lot of work when I did it and you didn't" View that from a different perspective and it's pretty clear how farcical that argument is. Why os stealing from people on these boards so decriable but stealing from IP holders, licencees and Corporate owners fine?
“We support artists” - is there any indication that the person who created this is not an artist? AFAIK, no one’s suggested the design or source is stolen from a specific designer, aside from the fact that almost everyone is using unlicensed and therefore technically stolen IP. Do we "support artists" or do we only "support artists in our club"?
“We decry scammers, thieves and opportunists” - the legally authorised holders of licenses for many products almost certainly view the people selling products on these boards as fitting well within those terms.
“Ask yourself “well isn’t replicating props for myself just making knockoffs?” it’s not.” - of course it’s not. I’m not selling illegal and unlicensed props for personal profit. Everyone on here who is selling their props without a license? Yep. They're making knockoffs. That's how it works. The key thing that moves it into KO territory is "making money"
"Knockoff items do have victims" - yep. Sometimes those victims are IP holders, original creative artists, or media and publishing companies.
If we're asking ourselves questions, it might be worth asking ourselves how sellers on theRPF are viewed by the companies like Paragon who spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, thousands of man-hours and countless billable legal hours negotiating official licenses. Pretty sure that to them, the sellers in here are at the least "opportunists", if not outright "thieves".
And just to be clear, I’ve been in 3d printing groups, Transformers and Gundam groups, collectible's forums and design groups for decades. I am well aware of the arguments and the intellectual contortions that many undertake to justify their positions. My own justification is that I want these props for myself and I am willing to accept the grey (if not outright black) morality of these groups to get those things. I don’t pretend that what I am doing is somehow “right” or “moral”. To me, the hypocrisy doesn’t lie in the making, selling or buying of these props (doing so is pretty clearly "wrong"), the hypocrisy is in the double standards we use to justify it.
Market forces mean that people will step up to fill demand and many won’t be legitimate. That’s going to happen anyway, but we shouldn’t pretend any of it is legal or moral.
And to be clear, I’m not trying to stir trouble or flame people, I just genuinely enjoy these moral quagmires and like discussing them.
I like to imagine a fictional conversation putting these ideas into a different sphere:
"Officer, Officer, you have to help me! I'm a fine upstanding and hard-working car thief. I spent weeks planning out the perfect heist, I staked out the vehicle and mapped the owner's movements over days. I purchased specialised lock-picking equipment and spent hours teaching myself the skills to bypass electronic security systems. I was careful to respect the cops, pay my bribes and obey the rules of my local organised crime cartel. I had just completed the perfect heist and was driving the car to my chop-shop, when this rude and unprofessional hoodlum, jumped into the car at the traffic lights and carjacked me!! He stole the car from me!! You have to do something!!"
From what I can see, the fundamental basis for a lot of these "my stuff is good, yours is bad" arguments seems to come down to "I put in a lot of work when I did it and you didn't" View that from a different perspective and it's pretty clear how farcical that argument is. Why os stealing from people on these boards so decriable but stealing from IP holders, licencees and Corporate owners fine?
"You need to have been here longer than a hot minute to get that it’s a culture as much as it’s a hobby" -
The good old RPF "The strength of my argument relies on the age of my account" It's one of the least appealing aspects of this forum and what makes it so problematic for new users.I have years of familiarity with the so-called "moral/ethical code" here and in any number of similar forums and groups.
Honestly? I myself choose to ignore the underlying hypocrisy of the "code" because I like these things for my own collection. And I am well aware of my own hypocrisy in doing so.
scarf man
Master Member
Thats a mischaracterization of my words. Being here long enough to make some friends and invest intellectually as well as emotionally is what I was getting at. I’m not intending for anyone to feel unwelcome, rather I’m advising that getting to know the locals and having a willingness to adopt the milieu will take time."You need to have been here longer than a hot minute to get that it’s a culture as much as it’s a hobby" -
I have years of familiarity with the so-called "moral/ethical code" here and in any number of similar forums and groups.
Honestly? I myself choose to ignore the underlying hypocrisy of the "code" because I like these things for my own collection. And I am well aware of my own hypocrisy in doing so.
Frankly I’ve made no claims of seniority or authority, I didn’t say that I’ve been here twenty years and that’s why you should listen to what I say. I don’t know what to tell you on that front, except to say maybe use some other quote to get that point across.
I was trying to say stick around for a while we’ll grow on you, only be careful some of us may actually grow on you. Lol
Well not you particularly Starganderfish, because like I said it was a general thought for the thread.
No collective mind, no groupthink, just a set of parameters if you like.
Starganderfish
Active Member
Thanks mate. I appreciate the words and the well thought out arguments. Like I said I enjoy these kinds of discussions.
But I’m gonna stop now because I know myself and know when I’m gonna go out too far on a tangent!!
For me? I’ve got a Paragon can coming so this is nothing more than intellectual curiosity.
joberg
Legendary Member
These counterfeit goods usually bear the trademark of a legitimate and trusted brand, but they were produced by another party and are not made to the specifications of the original manufacturer. They're often produced illegally and sold at a profit to fund other criminal activities. This makes the production and trafficking of counterfeit goods a transnational crime, commonly linked to transnational criminal organizations (TCOs). As such, related commercial fraud violations are also investigated by HSI’s Border Enforcement Security Task Forces (BESTs)Heh. Yeah I confess that I may have gotten a little off track and that the deceptive information in the listing IS a problem, and IS NOT great. But it's also completely par for the course for purchasing from China and anyone who shops from these sources should already be well aware of that.
However, several people have now painted this prop as somehow morally bad or wrong, in and of itself, totally aside from the listing details.
A couple of clarifications though:
“We support artists” - is there any indication that the person who created this is not an artist? AFAIK, no one’s suggested the design or source is stolen from a specific designer, aside from the fact that almost everyone is using unlicensed and therefore technically stolen IP. Do we "support artists" or do we only "support artists in our club"?
“We decry scammers, thieves and opportunists” - the legally authorised holders of licenses for many products almost certainly view the people selling products on these boards as fitting well within those terms.
“Ask yourself “well isn’t replicating props for myself just making knockoffs?” it’s not.” - of course it’s not. I’m not selling illegal and unlicensed props for personal profit. Everyone on here who is selling their props without a license? Yep. They're making knockoffs. That's how it works. The key thing that moves it into KO territory is "making money"
"Knockoff items do have victims" - yep. Sometimes those victims are IP holders, original creative artists, or media and publishing companies.
If we're asking ourselves questions, it might be worth asking ourselves how sellers on theRPF are viewed by the companies like Paragon who spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, thousands of man-hours and countless billable legal hours negotiating official licenses. Pretty sure that to them, the sellers in here are at the least "opportunists", if not outright "thieves".
And just to be clear, I’ve been in 3d printing groups, Transformers and Gundam groups, collectible's forums and design groups for decades. I am well aware of the arguments and the intellectual contortions that many undertake to justify their positions. My own justification is that I want these props for myself and I am willing to accept the grey (if not outright black) morality of these groups to get those things. I don’t pretend that what I am doing is somehow “right” or “moral”. To me, the hypocrisy doesn’t lie in the making, selling or buying of these props (doing so is pretty clearly "wrong"), the hypocrisy is in the double standards we use to justify it.
Market forces mean that people will step up to fill demand and many won’t be legitimate. That’s going to happen anyway, but we shouldn’t pretend any of it is legal or moral.
And to be clear, I’m not trying to stir trouble or flame people, I just genuinely enjoy these moral quagmires and like discussing them.
I like to imagine a fictional conversation putting these ideas into a different sphere:
"Officer, Officer, you have to help me! I'm a fine upstanding and hard-working car thief. I spent weeks planning out the perfect heist, I staked out the vehicle and mapped the owner's movements over days. I purchased specialised lock-picking equipment and spent hours teaching myself the skills to bypass electronic security systems. I was careful to respect the cops, pay my bribes and obey the rules of my local organised crime cartel. I had just completed the perfect heist and was driving the car to my chop-shop, when this rude and unprofessional hoodlum, jumped into the car at the traffic lights and carjacked me!! He stole the car from me!! You have to do something!!"
From what I can see, the fundamental basis for a lot of these "my stuff is good, yours is bad" arguments seems to come down to "I put in a lot of work when I did it and you didn't" View that from a different perspective and it's pretty clear how farcical that argument is. Why os stealing from people on these boards so decriable but stealing from IP holders, licencees and Corporate owners fine?
"You need to have been here longer than a hot minute to get that it’s a culture as much as it’s a hobby" -
I have years of familiarity with the so-called "moral/ethical code" here and in any number of similar forums and groups.
Honestly? I myself choose to ignore the underlying hypocrisy of the "code" because I like these things for my own collection. And I am well aware of my own hypocrisy in doing so.
So it's not as innocent as people think it is...it has serious ramifications for a lot of people
Though, I’m betting if people orders this for $70 and a really high quality replica came in the mail, people wouldn’t have an issue with things. They wouldn’t be pointing out the illegalities of things.These counterfeit goods usually bear the trademark of a legitimate and trusted brand, but they were produced by another party and are not made to the specifications of the original manufacturer. They're often produced illegally and sold at a profit to fund other criminal activities. This makes the production and trafficking of counterfeit goods a transnational crime, commonly linked to transnational criminal organizations (TCOs). As such, related commercial fraud violations are also investigated by HSI’s Border Enforcement Security Task Forces (BESTs)
So it's not as innocent as people think it is...it has serious ramifications for a lot of people
joberg
Legendary Member
Of course not...it's just that, at the end of the day, can you look yourself in the mirror and be comfortable with your decision knowing the fact?Though, I’m betting if people orders this for $70 and a really high quality replica came in the mail, people wouldn’t have an issue with things. They wouldn’t be pointing out the illegalities of things.
I can't for myself.
Yikes. The slow erosion of people looking out for others here.
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joberg
Legendary Member
I don't quite understand your train of thought
I don't quite understand your train of thought
My point is that we are slowly losing the "recasting is bad" line of thought. Someone being ok with another member having their prop recast, photos stolen, etc. is really sad. I see it less frequently with actual makers because they have a better understanding of the work put in. The idea that it's ok because "we are all thieves" is a lazy response to justify garbage behavior, period. The property belongs to the studio, and if they choose to let fans promote and exchange their IP, (which is the norm) then we should respect that, and also respect the work of the fan producing. Any attempt to justify recasting or stealing a fellow fans work is wrong. It has been wrong and it will always be wrong.
I feel like this situation were seeing here with the can, isn't quite the same as what you're describing. I also think 'voting with your dollar', by not purchasing any of these, will help deter would be rip-offs.
On a personal level, I don't think investing in these 'gambles' is valuable, it depreciates the value/respect you have for the prop/build/item etc. Accepting a 'close enough/good enough' from these sellers undermines the point, I think, of why many of us are here.
