Game of Thrones

[asalaw]

Can you refresh my memory on what happens in the books?

Spoiler

At the end of Dances with Dragons, Kevan enters Grandmaester Pycelle's chambers. There's a white raven perched on a table and Pycelle is dead, a crossbow bolt in his chest. Varys steps out of the shadows holding the crossbow, tells Kevan that everything he's ever done has been to engineer a Targaeryan restoration, and kills him too. The white raven is from the Citadel, a signal from the maesters that winter has come.

 

[Bryancd]

Clearly no one is Westeros knows how to run sepentine...

 

[asalaw]

Hey, waaaaitaminnit...

Spoiler

Regarding Jon's possible Targaeryan blood: I can see how Ned would have had to keep Jon's parentage a secret from Robert. Buuuuuut... Once Robert got boared to death (see what I did there? ), why would Ned then cleave so strongly to Stannis as the successor? If everything about the war was based on a lie, and Ned knew it, why would he continue to support the lie once Robert was dead? Sure, in theory, all the Targaeryens were dead, but why wouldn't Ned at least try to find out for sure? Why the rush to support Stannis' claim if he knew it to be false? What about honor? For that matter, why would he support such a monstrous lie in the first place?

 

[Marv]

Basically anyone with a named sword is going to be in it at the end. Other than the black glass/fire (plenty of that with dragons and green stuff) its the only thing able to kill the undead.
I think Snow is the chosen one - felt that all the way through nothing could touch him, as if he were protected by something of a higher order.

 

[kibosh]

Hey, waaaaitaminnit...

Spoiler

Regarding Jon's possible Targaeryan blood: I can see how Ned would have had to keep Jon's parentage a secret from Robert. Buuuuuut... Once Robert got boared to death (see what I did there? ), why would Ned then cleave so strongly to Stannis as the successor? If everything about the war was based on a lie, and Ned knew it, why would he continue to support the lie once Robert was dead? Sure, in theory, all the Targaeryens were dead, but why wouldn't Ned at least try to find out for sure? Why the rush to support Stannis' claim if he knew it to be false? What about honor? For that matter, why would he support such a monstrous lie in the first place?

Well, for one, he wouldn't have any proof. Just his word. And if the throne is taken by force, doesn't that create a whole new lineage? Yes, Dany sees herself as the rightful ruler, but that comes from the heir of the usurped house. Ned might have rightly assumed Stannis is next in line as Robert's conquest re-wrote everything.

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Spoiler

At the end of Dances with Dragons, Kevan enters Grandmaester Pycelle's chambers. There's a white raven perched on a table and Pycelle is dead, a crossbow bolt in his chest. Varys steps out of the shadows holding the crossbow, tells Kevan that everything he's ever done has been to engineer a Targaeryan restoration, and kills him too. The white raven is from the Citadel, a signal from the maesters that winter has come.

Ah, yes. Thanks for that.

 

[JoeG]

Hey, waaaaitaminnit...

Spoiler

Regarding Jon's possible Targaeryan blood: I can see how Ned would have had to keep Jon's parentage a secret from Robert. Buuuuuut... Once Robert got boared to death (see what I did there? ), why would Ned then cleave so strongly to Stannis as the successor? If everything about the war was based on a lie, and Ned knew it, why would he continue to support the lie once Robert was dead? Sure, in theory, all the Targaeryens were dead, but why wouldn't Ned at least try to find out for sure? Why the rush to support Stannis' claim if he knew it to be false? What about honor? For that matter, why would he support such a monstrous lie in the first place?

Spoiler

By the time Ned put together that Lyanna had not been kidnapped, but had willingly run off with Rhaegar, the war had already begun. His older brother and heir to Winterfell had already charged off to King's Landing looking to fight Rhaegar and thus committing treason. Thats what really got things started. So, at that point, when the Mad King had already killed Ned's father and older brother and then was calling for Ned to be brought to King's Landing, he was fighting to save his own life and for getting revenge for his house. Fast Forward to after Robert's death, there would have been next to nothing to gain for Ned to reveal Jon's true parentage to anyone. Jon was at the Wall. As for trying to reinstate the Targaryens as rulers of Westeros, there would've been little to gain with that as well. Viserys and Dany were children. They wouldn't have been regarded as suitable leaders. They would've been viewed as too easy to manipulate and influence. Where as Stannis was a known entity, especially to Ned. Everyone knew who he was and what sort of leader he would be. Which also proved to be why no one really wanted him as king either.

 

[Marv]

Double post blasted phone

 

[Solo4114]

Hey, waaaaitaminnit...

Spoiler

Regarding Jon's possible Targaeryan blood: I can see how Ned would have had to keep Jon's parentage a secret from Robert. Buuuuuut... Once Robert got boared to death (see what I did there? ), why would Ned then cleave so strongly to Stannis as the successor? If everything about the war was based on a lie, and Ned knew it, why would he continue to support the lie once Robert was dead? Sure, in theory, all the Targaeryens were dead, but why wouldn't Ned at least try to find out for sure? Why the rush to support Stannis' claim if he knew it to be false? What about honor? For that matter, why would he support such a monstrous lie in the first place?

Spoiler

Simple answer: Because Jon would still be in no position to claim the throne, and no one would believe him anyway.

Longer answer: Jon is, what, 14 in the books? While I think that's old enough in the books to rule in his own name (might be 16 -- I'm not sure), it's also possible that he'd end up in a regency much like Tommen. Moreover, Jon is still vulnerable. He doesn't hold claim to the North (and wouldn't anyway, as the son of a Stark daughter, I think), and there are virtually no Targaeryan loyalists left. Well, no open Targaeryan loyalists. There are the Martells, but it remains to be seen how well that'll hold up. It's possible the Tyrells might, but they're iffy. Plus, unless Rhaegar and Lyanna were secretly wed (which IS a possibility), he's still a *******, just a ******* Starkgaeryan rather than a ******* Starkwhorian. In other words, his claim is weak legally, and he himself is weak militarily, especially at the end of the first book. And he's all the way in the North at the Wall. And Ned (and Howland Reed) are the only survivors of the Tower of Joy that we know of, and both would be questionable sources, even though we, the readers/viewers trust Ned.

If anything, I think Dany marrying Jon helps to secure far more support for her. Theoretically, at least within the world of the show where Doran is dead, Ellaria Sand is alive, Yarra wants to become queen, the Tyrells have PTFO of King's Landing, the North is in disarray but Sansa has taken control, the Vale and (ostensibly) the Riverlands are under Petyr's control and he's (currently) backing Sansa, and Sansa is positioned to marry Robin and rule the North and de facto the Vale, Jon is a MUCH better prospect than he is in the books where they stand currently. Dany could, in theory, gain the support of the majority of the Seven Kingdoms with two alliances and one marriage, and maybe six out of seven if she can convince the Tyrells. Of course, the Lannisters will fight on at least until Cersei and Tommen die. Jaime, if he survives, would, I think, be content to rule the Westerlands and marry, although that'll require....well...a few other things to happen.

 

[asalaw]

Spoiler

Simple answer: Because Jon would still be in no position to claim the throne, and no one would believe him anyway.

Longer answer: Jon is, what, 14 in the books? While I think that's old enough in the books to rule in his own name (might be 16 -- I'm not sure), it's also possible that he'd end up in a regency much like Tommen. Moreover, Jon is still vulnerable. He doesn't hold claim to the North (and wouldn't anyway, as the son of a Stark daughter, I think), and there are virtually no Targaeryan loyalists left. Well, no open Targaeryan loyalists. There are the Martells, but it remains to be seen how well that'll hold up. It's possible the Tyrells might, but they're iffy. Plus, unless Rhaegar and Lyanna were secretly wed (which IS a possibility), he's still a *******, just a ******* Starkgaeryan rather than a ******* Starkwhorian. In other words, his claim is weak legally, and he himself is weak militarily, especially at the end of the first book. And he's all the way in the North at the Wall. And Ned (and Howland Reed) are the only survivors of the Tower of Joy that we know of, and both would be questionable sources, even though we, the readers/viewers trust Ned.

If anything, I think Dany marrying Jon helps to secure far more support for her. Theoretically, at least within the world of the show where Doran is dead, Ellaria Sand is alive, Yarra wants to become queen, the Tyrells have PTFO of King's Landing, the North is in disarray but Sansa has taken control, the Vale and (ostensibly) the Riverlands are under Petyr's control and he's (currently) backing Sansa, and Sansa is positioned to marry Robin and rule the North and de facto the Vale, Jon is a MUCH better prospect than he is in the books where they stand currently. Dany could, in theory, gain the support of the majority of the Seven Kingdoms with two alliances and one marriage, and maybe six out of seven if she can convince the Tyrells. Of course, the Lannisters will fight on at least until Cersei and Tommen die. Jaime, if he survives, would, I think, be content to rule the Westerlands and marry, although that'll require....well...a few other things to happen.

Spoiler

That's a very pragmatic and geopolitically trenchant answer, but it still doesn't get me past Ned's whole honor gestalt. I still don't see why Ned backed Robert's lie about what Rhaegar did with Lyanna if he knew that Lyanna actually loved Rhaegar. Ned was a lot of things, but he never struck me as a pragmatist. Even stalwart Brienne is more of a pragmatist than Ned ever was. And no schemer, either. Remember, Cercei easily outmaneuvered him in the Game. When it came to politics, Ned was a clod. Shmucks don't come any shmucker.

Having said all that, I'm definitely going to reread the books this summer, once I'm done with Heilein's Rolling Stones. First time around, I read all five on my iPhone on the metro. At least now I have an iPad.

 

[Solo4114]

Spoiler

That's a very pragmatic and geopolitically trenchant answer, but it still doesn't get me past Ned's whole honor gestalt. I still don't see why Ned backed Robert's lie about what Rhaegar did with Lyanna if he knew that Lyanna actually loved Rhaegar. Ned was a lot of things, but he never struck me as a pragmatist. Even stalwart Brienne is more of a pragmatist than Ned ever was. And no schemer, either. Remember, Cercei easily outmaneuvers him in the Game. When it came to politics, Ned was a clod. Shmucks don't come any shmucker.

Having said all that, I'm definitely going to reread the books this summer, once I'm done with Heilein's Rolling Stones. First time around, I read all five on my iPhone on the metro. At least now I have an iPad.

Spoiler

I'll give you a clue: "Promise me, Ned!" Lyanna made Ned promise her something. My guess is that he'd never, EVER reveal Jon's identity to anyone but Jon himself. Lyanna may have seen the chaos wrought by powerful lords vying for the throne, and may have wanted her son to have no part in that. Let him be a noble *******, but nothing more. Let him live out his days as a minor member of his house (I doubt she expected him to take the black). Or maybe she just figured that someone would kill him once they found out he was a Targaeryan and one of the last of the line at that.

So, what kind of honor would compel Ned to keep that secret, even when Jon is at least a more proper claimant to the throne? A promise to his dying sister, that's what.

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Spoiler

That's a very pragmatic and geopolitically trenchant answer, but it still doesn't get me past Ned's whole honor gestalt. I still don't see why Ned backed Robert's lie about what Rhaegar did with Lyanna if he knew that Lyanna actually loved Rhaegar. Ned was a lot of things, but he never struck me as a pragmatist. Even stalwart Brienne is more of a pragmatist than Ned ever was. And no schemer, either. Remember, Cercei easily outmaneuvers him in the Game. When it came to politics, Ned was a clod. Shmucks don't come any shmucker.

Having said all that, I'm definitely going to reread the books this summer, once I'm done with Heilein's Rolling Stones. First time around, I read all five on my iPhone on the metro. At least now I have an iPad.

Spoiler

I'll give you a clue: "Promise me, Ned!" Lyanna made Ned promise her something. My guess is that he'd never, EVER reveal Jon's identity to anyone but Jon himself. Lyanna may have seen the chaos wrought by powerful lords vying for the throne, and may have wanted her son to have no part in that. Let him be a noble *******, but nothing more. Let him live out his days as a minor member of his house (I doubt she expected him to take the black). Or maybe she just figured that someone would kill him once they found out he was a Targaeryan and one of the last of the line at that.

So, what kind of honor would compel Ned to keep that secret, even when Jon is at least a more proper claimant to the throne? A promise to his dying sister, that's what.

 

[asalaw]

Spoiler

I'll give you a clue: "Promise me, Ned!" Lyanna made Ned promise her something. My guess is that he'd never, EVER reveal Jon's identity to anyone but Jon himself. Lyanna may have seen the chaos wrought by powerful lords vying for the throne, and may have wanted her son to have no part in that. Let him be a noble *******, but nothing more. Let him live out his days as a minor member of his house (I doubt she expected him to take the black). Or maybe she just figured that someone would kill him once they found out he was a Targaeryan and one of the last of the line at that.

So, what kind of honor would compel Ned to keep that secret, even when Jon is at least a more proper claimant to the throne? A promise to his dying sister, that's what.

Spoiler

I have to admit, that makes a lot of sense, and it's in character for him. I can totally see Ned the Honorhead taking the slings and arrows from Cat all those years to keep his word to his sister. Now I'm even more anxious to see what happens in the next book, or final season. Whichever comes out first.

 

[asalaw]

Interesting sidebar (at least I think so) about GRRM.

I'm always trying to develop my writing, but I hate doing more than a rough outline and prefer what's called "discovery writing." It's just that doing all those index cards always feels like a huge barrier between me and diving into the story for the fun part, which is the writing. So I recently read a comment by GRRM saying if he knows exactly where his story is going, he loses interest.

VINDICATED!

Uh... not really.

I follow Melinda Snodgrass on FB, and she's close friends with him. I mentioned it on her feed, and she replied (without mentioning him by name) that writers who go with the "gardening method" (her term) tend to have major deadline issues.

Sound like anyone we know?

So, back to the frakkin' index cards, I guess... :unsure

 

[Riceball]

Interesting sidebar (at least I think so) about GRRM.

I'm always trying to develop my writing, but I hate doing more than a rough outline and prefer what's called "discovery writing." It's just that doing all those index cards always feels like a huge barrier between me and diving into the story for the fun part, which is the writing. So I recently read a comment by GRRM saying if he knows exactly where his story is going, he loses interest.

VINDICATED!

Uh... not really.

I follow Melinda Snodgrass on FB, and she's close friends with him. I mentioned it on her feed, and she replied (without mentioning him by name) that writers who go with the "gardening method" (her term) tend to have major deadline issues.

Sound like anyone we know?

So, back to the frakkin' index cards, I guess... :unsure

The other problem that I see thee gardening method is that it's too easy to lose track of where you're doing with your story and to either meander about as you try to figure out where you're going or how to get there or you simply lose track of plot lines and end up forgetting things. Sort of like a certain author we're familiar with who, after 5 books, is still building plot lines and doesn't seem to be moving towards any resolution even though there are only supposed to be 2 books left in the series.

 

[NeoRutty]

Interesting sidebar (at least I think so) about GRRM.

I'm always trying to develop my writing, but I hate doing more than a rough outline and prefer what's called "discovery writing." It's just that doing all those index cards always feels like a huge barrier between me and diving into the story for the fun part, which is the writing. So I recently read a comment by GRRM saying if he knows exactly where his story is going, he loses interest.

VINDICATED!

Uh... not really.

I follow Melinda Snodgrass on FB, and she's close friends with him. I mentioned it on her feed, and she replied (without mentioning him by name) that writers who go with the "gardening method" (her term) tend to have major deadline issues.

Sound like anyone we know?

So, back to the frakkin' index cards, I guess... :unsure

“Outlines are the last resource of bad fiction writers who wish to God they were writing masters' theses.”[/h]
Stephen King

 

[asalaw]

“Outlines are the last resource of bad fiction writers who wish to God they were writing masters' theses.”


Stephen King

I love that!-- but SK spends every day from 8 to 5 at the keyboard (and has for nearly 40 years), and he's written so many books he could probably write the next GoT by wiping his butt on a ream of printer paper. He's exceptionally talented and prolific. I think what MS was saying is that as a rule, writers who don't begin with the end clearly in mind take too long to finish and tend to bust deadlines, which publishers absolutely hate. GRRM can afford to bust deadlines because of his stature, but if an average shlub like me ever wants to get published more than once, I think it'll pay to listen to her. I think I've gotten pretty good over the years, but I know damn well I'm no Stephen King.

 

[NeoRutty]

Few are King... I do believe he has it right though... know your ending and write to it... but working out every little smidge before you get writing is really stifling.

He likes to let his characters drive the story, and while he follows a path laid out in his head, sometimes his characters grow as he writes and changes the direction he intended.

His "On Writing" book is great.

 

[asalaw]

Few are King... I do believe he has it right though... know your ending and write to it... but working out every little smidge before you get writing is really stifling.

He likes to let his characters drive the story, and while he follows a path laid out in his head, sometimes his characters grow as he writes and changes the direction he intended.

His "On Writing" book is great.

I totally agree -- the question is where each writer needs to draw that boundary between enough outlining and too much. I think both his writing books, On Writing and Danse Macabre, are fabulous. Taught me a lot.

EDIT -- Come to think of it, "stifling" is exactly the word I was looking for.

 

[The Mad Professor]

This is how the battle could have gone...

And oh what fun this is...

 

[The Mad Professor]

 

[SmilingOtter]

If Sansa had been privy to this conversation, she would probably be wise to offer up Littlefinger as dessert to Ramsay's hounds.

Of course, no one - Sansa, Cersei, or anyone else - should trust Littlefinger. Which he readily admits...

Edit: since this one doesn't allow remote linking, the pertinent conversation starts at the 2:35 mark.